How can a cage be too big???

I posted this on the tail of another thread but its been on my mind so I decided to re-post in a new thread...

Basically, my BP is getting almost to the length of the longest dimension of his tank. I've seen alot of posts suggesting that BP's like it cramped. Tail of other thread follows:

I can see liking a cramped AREA but why a cramped overall space? The husbandry guidelines are mostly based on the native habitat but not in this case. It is true they spend the *majority* of their time in small hides but you don't hear much about how much actual territory they cover. I would agree that they probably move about mostly for food which isn't an issue in captivity. But, just because they are mostly sedentary doesn't mean they don't benefit from exercise at all.

It's true: my BP is happy to spend 95% of his time in an area 1/4 the size available to him. BUT....when he does come out to roam he basically has to go in circles. That is when I feel bad for him.

Yeah I've heard lots of people say they prefer smaller cages... but I think as long as they have some small secure hides that the cage should be as big as possible! Of course this isnt practical for breeders or people with large collections, but with only one or a few as pets... I don't see why a snake wouldnt want more room to roam. And when the're small it would seem best to keep them in a smaller cage just so you can still find them without hunting around. Just like we like our cozy beds to sleep in all night, the snakes like a little cozy hide to sleep in... but I stay up at night and see my snakes patrolling, sometimes making tracks around the edges of the tank, thats when I know I need to either redecorate to make things more interesting, or get a bigger cage. But I like to spoil my babies anyway.

weirdbuglady I agree completely. People here are always saying to put them in small cages especially when their young but I disagree. My girl has been in a 33 long since she was a hatchling and loves the space. She has 3 hides in it two regular and one humid. Shes about 3 feet now and the 4 foot cage is starting to look small because shes fairly active. When shes up to 4 feet im going to get her in a 75. She ate regularly when she was a hatchling in the big cage no problem.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I posted this on the tail of another thread but its been on my mind so I decided to re-post in a new thread...

Basically, my BP is getting almost to the length of the longest dimension of his tank. I've seen alot of posts suggesting that BP's like it cramped. Tail of other thread follows:

I can see liking a cramped AREA but why a cramped overall space? The husbandry guidelines are mostly based on the native habitat but not in this case. It is true they spend the *majority* of their time in small hides but you don't hear much about how much actual territory they cover. I would agree that they probably move about mostly for food which isn't an issue in captivity. But, just because they are mostly sedentary doesn't mean they don't benefit from exercise at all.

It's true: my BP is happy to spend 95% of his time in an area 1/4 the size available to him. BUT....when he does come out to roam he basically has to go in circles. That is when I feel bad for him.

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Certain things have been found better to work in captivity as opposed to compared to their natural environments. People have been keeping these snakes for many years now and have found the best methods for having animals thrive in captivity. Even in the wild bps spend most of their time in burrows of the animals they prey upon. These spaces are usually cramped and bps will spend most their time their before searching for another meal.

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Originally Posted by moespeaking

weirdbuglady I agree completely. People here are always saying to put them in small cages especially when their young but I disagree. My girl has been in a 33 long since she was a hatchling and loves the space. She has 3 hides in it two regular and one humid. Shes about 3 feet now and the 4 foot cage is starting to look small because shes fairly active. When shes up to 4 feet im going to get her in a 75. She ate regularly when she was a hatchling in the big cage no problem.

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Whoa...I have my guy in a 30gallon tank 36x12x12 and that is where he shall stay he is a bit over 3 feet now. But a 75 seems pretty big, if you dont plan on moving anytime soon and have the space for it then go ahead. But i have friends with full grown red tails and keep them in 55gal max.

weirdbuglady, moespeaking: that is my reasoning too. In the small times when they choose to actually roam about then I don't see how a very limited area would benefit them.

Spaniard: Yea, the exercise thing was more of a curiousity. I don't doubt they can be healthy in a small area. I'm not suggesting anybody here is being cruel to their snake or anything like that.

But - if you only had one and you did want to do spoil it - a nice big cage with lots of exploration room seems like a good way. I know that, as Snakey has gotten bigger, the way in which he moves inside his cage has simplified alot. He used to spend a little time in the evenings doing what I called the "Snake Lava Lamp". He would slowly wind through all his furniture in a seemingly endless set of combinations, stopping every so often to do a long, motionless stare. With the big red heat lamp, it was cooler than any lava-lamp I've ever seen. He just doesn't do it any more. :( He doesn't even have to fully leave his hide to make it to the water dish and they are almost on opposite sides of the tank!

I have a few snakes that if I put them in anything bigger than a 15qt tub, they stop eating and get extremely stressed out.

Also, with a 75 gallon tank, that is a HUGE space to heat, not to mention drafty. Why not get a really nice Animal Plastics cage(4x2) or a cage from Cages By Design. You'd spend alot less in electrical bills since they are better insulated. Would be a really nice conversation piece instead of a huge tank(that would look really nice with fish in it).

Honestly I think it's ridiculous to say they like small cages.

Would you like living in your bathroom for the rest of your life?

Many other keepers have also felt similarly to those who have expressed an interest in housing their balls in larger enclosures (although I'm glad "I" don't have to break down and completely disinfect a 75 gallon once a month).


Many keepers have tried larger enclosures, and had their ball pythons begin to fast for extended periods of time, and found when they moved them back down to smaller more appropriately sized enclosures (read - as recommended by keepers with multiple balls and years of experience working and being students of these animals) that they resumed eating reliably for them, suggesting that their snakes did not in fact thrive in a larger enclosure that their owner thought that they would appreciate.

That's not to say that "some" ball pythons may do beautifully in a larger enclosure - but I personally believe that those keepers should go into a larger enclosure with an open enough mind to move their snakes back down to a smaller one if their snakes are not feeding as well as they did in smaller enclosures. Despite any money that may have been invested in the larger enclosure.

Larger enclosures are also much more difficult to achieve and maintain ideal temperatures and humidity.

Just my :2cent:

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Originally Posted by N4S

Honestly I think it's ridiculous to say they like small cages.

Would you like living in your bathroom for the rest of your life?

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I wouldn't, but then I'm not a ball python either with their requirements and needs.

Comparing human desires with reptilian desires is apples to grapes, it's not even apples to oranges, much less apples to apples.

Just saying....(Jamie, your check's in the mail)

Ok without touting what anyone has said here the down low on how a cage can be to big for the animal. Ok a ball python is an animal with limited resources when it comes to defense, it bites, it balls up, it hisses, or it flees. Now in the mind of your animal moving from one hide to the next is a daunting task. Why you might ask well to it when its out of its hide its visible to predators. So the longer it spend out of its hide more more its mind its telling to to get the hell somewhere that it is safe. So if you increase the space in between the hides your snake spends more time mentally freaking out thinking its going to get eaten A.K.A stressing out. So with some animals or over time with others they will start showing signs of stress caused by enviroment , not eating, not thermo regulating and so on.

Your not suggesting anything new however years of keeping and even longer of them being in captivity have show that large tanks are not only unnecessary but in the end hard on their well being. Ball Pythons neither need or want large open spaces to provide it for them is a wast of time and money.

Them roaming at night is not a sign of "restless" behavior it is simply them being curious about their close surrounds. To say that the tank looks small for them is our assessment of what we think they might need. But in truth they really need less to be happy than most are comfortable providing. I mean balls need, Heat, Water, food, and a close hide and thats it.

Hope I answered some questions for you guys.

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Originally Posted by N4S

Honestly I think it's ridiculous to say they like small cages.

Would you like living in your bathroom for the rest of your life?

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And how many do you own and for how long???

Please don't misunderstand different animal have different requirements those just happen to be a Ball pythons.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to rabernet again.

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Originally Posted by N4S

Honestly I think it's ridiculous to say they like small cages.

Would you like living in your bathroom for the rest of your life?

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Do you constrict and kill your own food and eat it?
Comparing your needs to a ball pythons needs just isn't real logical. People do it all the time the analyze animals with human behaviors. Ball pythons are extremely private snakes unlike boas and other constrictors. They enjoy tight secure hiding spots. the tubs most breeders use are long for a snake to move around but not real tall so the animal feels secure. Stressed BP's don't eat well and tend to get RI's and other illness. Stress weakens their imune system. You can't see a snake stressed because the don't show it like we do. Part of their defense/camoflauge is to remain still and motionless so just cuz he is still doesn't mean he is not stressed. Not all snakes are this sensitive but when you've kept 40+ snakes for years you see what works best overall and time and time again. Stress free snakes eat more consistently, don't get sick and breed better and more predictable. Thats why we prefer smaller enclosures for BP's, now boas or larger pythons are different and prefer more room.

I say put them in whatever you want as long as you have the hides. I have a 65gal tank for my female and she seems fine regular eater and likes to roam around in ti i have 4 hides though one on either side then 2 that i have kind of staggard in the middle. the only porblem is getting humidity right. its a pain. other than that i dont see a prob. Actually reading other posts I did forget about the cleaning part im am soo used to it i didnt even mention it thats also a big pain but if you are up for the responsibility of it then do it. I respect everyone on this site for all the knowlege that they have used to help me out many time. But this is one thing where i differ in opinion. I have lots of stuff in my tank to clutter it up, like plants half logs rocks things of this sort so its not just some huge wide open space. I think this is why i have been sucessful with my transition. my male is in a 20gal long though he much more shy.

Well I would say you can't argue with a decrease in feeding. But... One thing I have picked up from my time here is that the level of what I like to call "BP paranoia" varies drastically from snake to snake. My personal experience with my ONE snake has been that almost everything that people say "don't do X or you'll stress him out" barely applies.

* I gave him only a 2 day break when I got him.
* I feed in a tub under bright light while watching him. Any time of day, coming and going, friends over, music playing, you name it - he eats like a machine.
* I pick him up right after eating to put him back in his cage. No regurg.
* I handle him once or twice a day. He doesn't always like it but he doesn't get pissy. He's never hissed or bitten.

Of course, that's just one snake and I as I read more and more posts I noticed that peoples experiences varied. Some were more conservative and some carry their snakes around with them all the time! I eventually concluded that there must be this huge personality factor with each snake.

I like the "try it and see approach" the best. It really is giving the snake a chance to choose and either way its going to get what's best for it! If they like it small great. But, I would hate to enclose my pet in 1/2 or 1/4 the space they could actually enjoy (as long as its practical of course).

But, there is no way I want to deal with a monster glass aquarium so I'm definately interested in some sort of plastic or mostly wooden enclosure. Soembody, tell me more!

It does make sense that if a ball python feels too "out in the open" it might get stressed. Though I've had my girl in a 40 gallon breeder for quite some time and last night she just took a f/t rat out of my hand, no worries about fasting here :P But I imagine different snakes have different preferences and temperments. I have a very young bp I currently have in a small plastic sweater box and it's fine for him so far, but since I only have two and they're pets, I want to end up having a nice looking cage for him as an adult. Not too big but enough he can at least stretch out.

Yeah a lot of us do push human traits onto our animals, it's only natural that since we provide them food and safety we are concerned with their living quarters as well, and it's tough for us to imagine an animal preferring a smaller cage, especially since so many other sorts of animals think of nothing except escape. It's impossible to pry inside the mind of a snake and see if certain living conditions make them happier or if they just don't care at all. All we have to go on are outside indicators such as illness. But I have a lot of respect for the breeders that have been at this a long time... some day when I've got the time and money I'd love to get more into bps. I've got quite a bit more learning and dreaming to do though.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

* I feed in a tub under bright light while watching him. Any time of day, coming and going, friends over, music playing, you name it - he eats like a machine.

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It doesn't surprise me that a growing baby would eat like a machine. I would be interested in hearing your observations on his eating patterns this coming winter when he's over a year old. I suspect you'll start to observe less reliable feeding responses that you are currently used to.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

* * I pick him up right after eating to put him back in his cage. No regurg.

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If you are very careful, the amount of time taken to transport from feeding tub to enclosure doesn't stress them out enough to regurg. That's not the same as a regular handling session. I've had overturned waterbowls on feeding day that several hours later, I'll handle the snake very briefly in order to clean up his/her enclosure.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

* I handle him once or twice a day. He doesn't always like it but he doesn't get pissy. He's never hissed or bitten.

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Some snakes are very laid back and won't hiss or bite. But they also tend to just tolerate handling. I believe you've made the observation in another thread that you can tell when he's had enough of a handling session, if I remember correctly.

I can only tell you from my personal experience with my first ball python. He was housed in a 20 gallon long - fed reliably for me, has ALWAYS been a very easy going snake, but once his first winter came - I had an 8 month fast, until I finally broke down and got him into an appropriately sized tub, and he broke his fast. He has eaten reliably through winter season ever since.

Once I gave up the idea of a "display" enclosure (after all, if I want to look at him, I take him out of his tub) and made the switch to tubs, I've never looked back. Glass works for some people, but glass will only be used for rats and geckos in my house. I've seen the difference in a snake kept in an enclosure that was too large for him and too exposed, even at just 20 gallons vs. the same snake kept in a tub.

I've seen the difference in how aggressively my snakes feed when housed in smaller enclosures vs. larger ones because I wanted to give them more room. I learned that the more experienced keepers really did know what they were talking about. ;)

I can sit here and go through our collection of 18 ball pythons, pick out a few habits here or there and then say "well this is what works" but that wouldn't be a fair assessment of what generally works for the majority of ball pythons. When we give advice here we are usually working on general husbandry habits that have been proven effective over hundred, perhaps thousands of ball pythons and over many cumulative years of keeping. Not what works for one person with one snake in one experience.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

I can sit here and go through our collection of 18 ball pythons, pick out a few habits here or there and then say "well this is what works" but that wouldn't be a fair assessment of what generally works for the majority of ball pythons. When we give advice here we are usually working on general husbandry habits that have been proven effective over hundred, perhaps thousands of ball pythons and over many cumulative years of keeping. Not what works for one person with one snake in one experience.

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Bingo!!!!

Oh yea, I agree. I was just using my personal story as a way to point out that your mileage may vary, so to speak. Also, my boy isn't without limits - that's for sure. The other part of my story was meant to show how my experience with my snake colored my perception until I eventually came to understand that the snakes' personalities vary alot. I'm sometimes frusterated by handling recommendations simply because I would hate to have to leave Snakey alone for a week! I understand the idea - better safe than sorry. I wish there was a more reliable way to tell how stressed they really are without waiting for them to go off feed. I also get concerned that some of the more conservative recommendations carry some risks too.

Anyway, I didn't mean to start an argument about that subject. It was really just a long-winded way of saying that I agree that letting the snake decided was the best course of action. As they say "Different shakes for different snakes!" :D

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Oh yea, I agree. I was just using my personal story as a way to point out that your mileage may vary, so to speak. Also, my boy isn't without limits - that's for sure. The other part of my story was meant to show how my experience with my snake colored my perception until I eventually came to understand that the snakes' personalities vary alot. I'm sometimes frusterated by handling recommendations simply because I would hate to have to leave Snakey alone for a week! I understand the idea - better safe than sorry. I wish there was a more reliable way to tell how stressed they really are without waiting for them to go off feed. I also get concerned that some of the more conservative recommendations carry some risks too.

Anyway, I didn't mean to start an argument about that subject. It was really just a long-winded way of saying that I agree that letting the snake decided was the best course of action. As they say "Different shakes for different snakes!" :D

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I think the mistake you are making here in holding so steadfast to your side of the issue is this - there are exceptions to every rule and you are relying on your experience with ONE snake.

I'm not trying to belittle you or anything, but its not right to go on a message board and profess your opinion on something contrary to the findings of hundreds of large scale breeders who have dealt with thousands upon thousands of ball pythons, and come to the conclusion that they, as a whole, thrive in smaller enclosures.

What works for you is great, and if it makes you feel good to house your snake in a large enclosure and it is healthy, more power to you! That just doesn't seem to be the case for many other keepers, though.

Also keep in mind that you are treating your snake for an RI. RI's can develop when your snake is stressed (like in an enclosure that is too large and exposed), which weakens their immunity. Going off feed is not the only sign that your snake is stressed.

Just because a snake eats doesn't mean it "likes" your husbandry. It means you are doing the bear minimum for him to eat. I'm also confused on how one can know what their snake "likes". Does it say, "Hey bub, I like a big enclosure, so step over to petco and get me one o' de'm 55ers!", no, I don't think so.


Austin

IMO as long as they aren't stressed, eating regularly, and healthy, they can be housed in as large of an enclosure as you wish. You must be knowlegeable enough to be able to recognize signs of a stressed or ill snake. You also must be able to clean and sanitize the enclosure regularly, and provide the right thermal gradient.

I think there must have been some misunderstanding here. I'm not trying to say anything but that certain things vary from snake to snake. I think the previous posts in the thread show just that. Some people have found that their snakes don't like big enclosures and some have found otherwise.

If you'll re-read my second post you'll see that I pointed out that I had only ONE snake and limited experience.

With regard to Snakey's RI, he has yawned alot ever since I got him. On top of that, difficulties keeping the entire cage warm is probably the cause. In fact, he never started the mouth-wiping until I began to provide a cool-side hide (but it was too cold). Likewise, the frequency of the mouth wiping went up radically when I began to use a rheostat because everybody started freaking out when I said I had an always-on UTH. I'm not blaming anybody I'm just saying that there is always an error risk. Good advice is only good advice if its given in the right context. You have the experienced person giving advice but can't see the snake and has only someone's description to go by. On the other hand you have a less experienced person who's physically there. To analogize, you have two different people who have a view of opposite sides of the same coin, each of which is trying to draw a picture of the other side by communicating on a forum. You have to admit that's not ideal.

I wouldn't form a strong opinion on either side unless I had experience with both sides of the argument........ :)

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Originally Posted by Rapture

IMO as long as they aren't stressed, eating regularly, and healthy, they can be housed in as large of an enclosure as you wish. You must be knowlegeable enough to be able to recognize signs of a stressed or ill snake. You also must be able to clean and sanitize the enclosure regularly, and provide the right thermal gradient.

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So, we've got going off feed and RI as stress symptoms. I think their tendency to "ball" is a good indicator. Are there others?

Just an observation, but it is sometimes difficult to offer opinions and suggestions to you, because it appears that you ask for feedback, but then dismiss it and offer reasons why it doesn't apply to YOUR snake.

I understand that tone is difficult to interpret in the written word, and that may not be what you're trying to do, but I have observed on more than one occassion, good solid advice being offered by experienced keepers here and then seemingly dismissed as not applicable to your snake. It does make one pause before deciding if they want to write a thoughtful response to your questions.

Just some food for thought.

I also do want to make note of this:

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Good advice is only good advice if its given in the right context

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Please remember this when you yourself are giving advice to other new keepers if you are not sure that your information is accurate.

I get the feeling that you really are eager to learn as much as possible and offer Snakey the best home possible, but you often seem blinded by your theories of how he "should" be or how you "should" be able to do someting outside the norm. It's good to question, but not to the point that it comes across as being argumentative.

I hope that "my" tone is received in the manner that I intended which was to offer some constructive advice based on my personal observations of your posting and questioning style. :) In no way is this meant to be any sort of personal attack on you.

Bear I just wonder why you're so eager to question every aspect of suggested husbandry. Most of the people that have been breeding for years began with an enthusiasm for the animal and would want nothing less than the best care for them, and not to be rude, but I'm sure none of these are new ideas. I'm sure many different ways of keeping ball pythons has been tried over the years and now there is more or less a standard suggestion of how to set up your enclosure.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

So, we've got going off feed and RI as stress symptoms. I think their tendency to "ball" is a good indicator. Are there others?

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And you would be wrong.
To ball up is not a stress reaction that is a defense that the animal uses when its physical well being is threatened. Stress in Ball pythons is any number of things that is caused from the animals physical and/or physiological needs are not being met.

"In medical terms, stress is the disruption of homeostasis through physical or psychological stimuli. Stressful stimuli can be mental, physiological, anatomical or physical reactions." (from wikipedia)


and since I sensed a little scarcasium(sp) in you "Are there others" yea. Heres a few
Enjoy :D

What to look for
Assessing stress and illness in reptiles means looking at the animal itself as well as its immediate environment (enclosure and equipment) and the macroenvironment (the room in which the enclosure resides).

Check the overall appearance of the reptiles:

* Are there any lateral folds, or are the folds normal for the species exaggerated in appearance or are there more of them?
* Has there been a change in color?
* Is the color of the skin dulling, darkening?

Check for changes in feeding habits:

* Has food intake dropped off?
* Food choices changed?
* Are they selecting foods with higher moisture content?
* Eating more?

Look for changes in the appearance, consistency and amount of feces and urates:

* Is there less urates?
* Is it thicker, more viscous?
* Are fecal masses smaller, harder, drier?
* Defecating less often?

Check for any changes in behavior:

* Is the reptile lethargic?
* Spending more time in hiding or in the cooler end of the thermal gradient?
* Spends more time in basking area?
* Prolonged soaking in water bowl?
* More active, especially at odd times?
* Engaging in frequent or prolonged digging, scratching or head-banging behavior?
* Increased or decreased tongue-flicking when handled or enclosure is opened?
* Has the usually tame reptile become aggressive (not associated with breeding season)?*

Check for changes in shedding:

* Has the shed schedule become erratic?
* If the reptile should be shedding in one piece (all snakes, some lizards), is it?
* Are sheds taking much longer than usual to complete?

Check for physical signs of illness an injury:

* Is it gaping (sitting with open mouth) for long periods of time?
* Increased or thickened saliva?
* Paling of the tissues inside the mouth?
* Prolonged eversion of hemipenes or cloacal tissue after defecation?
* Limping?
* Swelling of digit, tail, limb, back, jaw?
* Loss of muscle tone/strength?
* Tremors?
* Shakiness?
* Less climbing or failure to climb?
* Difficulty raising body off ground (for legged species)?
* Difficult or failure to right itself?
* Any lumps, bumps or bruised areas?
* Any scabs?
* Blisters?

If any of these signs occur, the environmental requirements of the species must be checked against the conditions actually occurring in the enclosure and any inadequacies or failures corrected.

If the proper physical environment is well established, the social environment needs to be looked at in enclosures where more than one animal is housed together. It should be noted that aggression and dominance behavior is not always overtly physical - there need not be any actual fighting. Subtle behaviors on the part of the dominant animal may result in a subordinate animal staying away from basking areas and food, slowly dying of stress-enhanced hypothermia and starvation.

If the physical and social environments inside the enclosure are not a problem, then the macroenvironment must be evaluated. Has the placement of the enclosure been changed (to a different room or different part of the original room)? Are children or pets annoying or scaring the reptile (think food chain/predator-prey relationships here as well as the annoyance factor of children)? Have you moved your household? Had to evacuate due to a natural disaster? Had the in-laws over for the week, totally disrupting your usual animal maintenance (and playtime) schedule? Been gone on vacation? These are all things that may seem like they wouldn't intrude on the life of our captive reptiles but, for many of them (especially iguanas and other social lizards), most definitely do.

There are also the things that go on behind your back... One woman found out from neighbor, who observed what was going on through the window while the owner was at work, that her cat would sit staring into her iguana's enclosure, nose pressed up against the glass, for hours at a time when the owner was at work. Since the cat never engaged in this behavior when the owner was home, she never thought there was a problem with the cat. Another woman found out that her husband was turning off the heating equipment in her reptile's enclosure at night after she went to bed "to save money - it's a cold-blooded animal, so it doesn't need heat all the time" was his rationale when she finally figured out why her reptile was sick and stressed. So, just because you are not directly observing something going on doesn't mean that something isn't happening to result in fear and stress in your reptile. You may need to become a sort of detective in carefully and deeply assessing everything that goes on in and around your reptile's enclosure as well as exploring as much as you can of the animal's natural history before you will be able to figure out what isn't right.

Please note that if your conditions have not been set up appropriately before reading this material, the shedding, defecation, and growth patterns you have come to expect from your reptile may in fact be abnormal. Reptile owners who have no previous experience with healthy reptiles believe that since their reptile is alive, eating, and defecating, that they are healthy. One 4-H reptile program leader informed me, for example, that ball pythons never shed in one piece. Her snake was covered in patches of unshed skin representing 3-4 different sheds, its eyes deeply dented from retained eye caps. Her snake was not healthy, but she insisted that, since that was the way her snake had always been, and that since it was alive and moving around, that it was "normal" for the species! I frequently encounter iguana owners who tell me that their iguanas defecate only once or twice a week even though they are eating daily. This tells me right away that their temperatures are too low. Once they are raised to the proper levels, the owners are often dismayed to find that, not only does the iguana increase its food intake, but its digestion speeds up to the proper rate, resulting in often copious defecation one or more times a day, depending upon the season. Most of these owners also find that their iguana isn't really as tame as they thought it was.


and just so I don't get tagged AGAIN for stealing info heres the whole artical
http://www.anapsid.org/signs.html

Ed...that was a long post!

and

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Freakie_frog again.


:rockon:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Just an observation, but it is sometimes difficult to offer opinions and suggestions to you, because it appears that you ask for feedback, but then dismiss it and offer reasons why it doesn't apply to YOUR snake.

I understand that tone is difficult to interpret in the written word, and that may not be what you're trying to do, but I have observed on more than one occassion, good solid advice being offered by experienced keepers here and then seemingly dismissed as not applicable to your snake. It does make one pause before deciding if they want to write a thoughtful response to your questions.

Just some food for thought.

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Partly I've had to sort through alot of conflicting information since getting my snake. When somebody presents me with something like that I will often debate the issue a bit to see the reasoning behind it.

Also, I like to debate stuff and I don't like to do anything unless I really understand *why* I'm doing it. I suppose it just tires some people out who would prefer I just take their advice and move on.

And, with regards to this post, there are any number of threads on this forum that show that people's experiences vary alot and, often times, don't fall into a "right" or "wrong" category. That was really all I was trying to say.

Freakie_frog: No sarcasm at all. In my experience I have noticed changes in my BP's tendency to ball even though I pick him up the same way every time. My main intent was to try to steer things towards something more constructive and I have been genuinely curious about what the signs are. The article you reference is awesome except I wish that she had discussed each of the symptoms in a little more detail. My snake does show one or two of them but I have no way to interpret their meaning.

i just want to throw something in here.... i got my first ball python many months ago, and used all the info here to get him eating and set up his enclosure "the right way". i did question alot of things but then i looked at it through the snakes point of view and not my pet point of view. i changed my display viv, to a more snake friendly viv, and i haven't had a problem with him since.

Hi Bearhart,


It takes time and experience to interpret them correctly.

While I can understand that you want to know the barebones why of everything in the meantime ( untill you have spent the time and gained the experience) it really isn't all that helpfull to constantly give other people the same conflicting information you were given while seeming to disregard the opinions of those who already have aquired extensive husbandry knowledge the hard way.

And while there are indeed variations they are usually best left to people who truly understand what they are doing and why when they introduce them - I've said this to you before iirc.

And PLEASE don't give out vetinary advice on reptiles based on human anatomy.


dr del

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I suppose it just tires some people out who would prefer I just take their advice and move on.

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I don't think that's true at all. I think what frustrates a lot of people is that you ask for opinions and then give anecdotal evidence to the contrary of whatever you are told, all when you are having issues that every single experienced keeper says will be the result of incorrect husbandry.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

And, with regards to this post, there are any number of threads on this forum that show that people's experiences vary alot and, often times, don't fall into a "right" or "wrong" category. That was really all I was trying to say.

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I don't think anyone disagrees with this. I think people here are very careful about what advice and opinions we dispense about proper care and what has been proven over time to work best for stressed animals. Not all of us follow every bit of 'expert advice' all the time, as we find what works best with our animals over time. But for a new user with a pet they brought home from a pet store with all the wrong advice, it's helpful to start with the basic setup that has been proven to keep animals healthy.

I hope this was as diplomatically worded as Robin's post, I think we all know that isn't one of my talents :rolleyes:

I've had experience with both larger glass vivs and now the much more compact tub set-up. I've gone from one snake to 6 and although my collection isn't vast I've gone from beginner to pretty experienced when it comes to my husbandry in the last two years. When my 2 snakes were hatchlings kept in glass vivs they ate fine despite my husbandry not being spot on. As they grew bigger they would fast, not eat consistently, and so on. This is when I made my switch to tubs and a rack system and have never been happier. My only problem now is trying to keep humidity down as opposed to up. I think a lot of times people's emotions clutter the facts of keeping a pet healthy, what we think they "feel" is nothing close to what they actually feel. We will never know what they feel because there is no way to interpret a snakes feelings. In situations like this when there is no way to accurately interpret feelings we must rely on what has been proven successful. To simply say "i feel bad for him going in circles" and therefore he needs more space is irrational. What if he's out there going in circles because he's stressed that he has too much space?

Bear I completely understand your questioning nature, I've one myself. Personally in the greater scheme of snakekeeping I consider my self a reasonably educated noob...there's still SO much to learn and it's one of the greatest joys I think of snakekeeping that one is always learning, adjusting and striving for the best for our scaley friends.


What I have found over a few years and a few snakes is there are general guidelines and those are the ones we "preach" here. Those are common sense guidelines based on hands on experience, however, one adjusts here and there for the uniqueness of the snake, but always with the intent that any adjustment is for the snake's benefit first and ours second (if at all).

I find sometimes a practical example from someone's collection helps me best to understand a concept so I'll give you an example of stress in a snake we experienced last night.

We have two male ball pythons, both 06's, both great feeders and both within grams of each other in size. One, however, adjusted to handling with ease, the other, not so much. Now both were out for a bit of supervised exercise on the snake room floor last night. This was the result....

Snake #1 who is more accepting of human beings immediately began to explore the area in a slow and determined manner. When I moved him or gave him a gentle stroke his body did not tense his muscles, ball up or otherwise acknowledge me but just adjusted to my touch and went about his business of checking out the area.

Snake #2 who is the more nervous snake immediately went into an S defensive strike position and froze for a time. When he finally relaxed somewhat and began to explore if I reached to touch him he felt "stiff" compared to Snake #2. So even though he began to explore much as Snake #1 was doing, he was obviously feeling threatened and stressed.

Stress can be just this subtle. A tenseness of muscle but until you've experienced two snakes doing much the same activity you wouldn't necessarily clue into it. You might assume that once Snake #2 was exploring it was therefore now not stressed when in actuality he was still in a very stressed "place". Of course, due to this Snake #2 was returned to his enclosure quietly after a bit of time...enough to allow him to build some out of enclosure skills but not enough to put him off the experience all together.

Hope that helped somewhat.

Large cages have to be hard to heat. Too much open space.. retaining humidity would have to be pretty tough as well, I would think.
I like a smaller tub because the snake has his choices: warm spot. Cool spot. Middle ground with water bowl. They are simple creatures, and this gives them the ability to thermoregulate: I go on this side to cool off; that one to warm up. It's not "Oh; I am slithering around.. it's warmer here.. cooler here.." I would think that larger caging would make for patchy, inconsistent heat spots.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

Large cages have to be hard to heat. Too much open space.. retaining humidity would have to be pretty tough as well, I would think.
I like a smaller tub because the snake has his choices: warm spot. Cool spot. Middle ground with water bowl. They are simple creatures, and this gives them the ability to thermoregulate: I go on this side to cool off; that one to warm up. It's not "Oh; I am slithering around.. it's warmer here.. cooler here.." I would think that larger caging would make for patchy, inconsistent heat spots.

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On a side note: I think that adult BPs definately need a large-enough tub to stretch out in, especially at night when they are active.. I hate seeing a large female, for example, cramped into anything smaller than a 41-quart tub. They can't even stretch out corner-to-corner in a smaller tub. I oftentimes wake up at night and look into the tubs (I use 41-qts) and see the snakes stretched out and exploring. I would worry about them if they could not do this; then again with a rounded tub maybe they could simply go around the parameter and stretch out?
But some smaller adults would be fine in a smaller tub I guess, maybe 2/3rds of the 41-qt size? There is a happy medium, then there is too big and too small.

About "balling up:" I would actually be more concerned about my ball python if, instead of balling up, it raced through my hands wildly, sat completely still, or hung limp-like. To me, there's nothing wrong with a ball python that balls up when first picked up, and gradually reveals itself when it feels safe.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

About "balling up:" I would actually be more concerned about my ball python if, instead of balling up, it raced through my hands wildly, sat completely still, or hung limp-like. To me, there's nothing wrong with a ball python that balls up when first picked up, and gradually reveals itself when it feels safe.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by SarahMB

I think we all know that isn't one of my talents :rolleyes:

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WHAT!? :D

I keed!!

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

Exactly.

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(Off topic)

Gin, I really like your new avatar!

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Originally Posted by Rapture

Gin, I really like your new avatar!

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me too!

:gj:

very cool!

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Originally Posted by jglass38

WHAT!? :D

I keed!!

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I know, I know...I'm working on it! :)

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Originally Posted by SarahMB

I know, I know...I'm working on it! :)

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Hopefully not on my account. I dig it! :rockon:

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Originally Posted by Rapture

(Off topic)

Gin, I really like your new avatar!

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Thanks! I made it 100% using Microsoft Paint :) I have to get creative, since Photoshop is not working since our computer crashed. I can use PS at my mom's but I only go there once in a blue moon.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

IMO as long as they aren't stressed, eating regularly, and healthy, they can be housed in as large of an enclosure as you wish. You must be knowlegeable enough to be able to recognize signs of a stressed or ill snake. You also must be able to clean and sanitize the enclosure regularly, and provide the right thermal gradient.

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What he said I say we leave it at this.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

About "balling up:" I would actually be more concerned about my ball python if, instead of balling up, it raced through my hands wildly, sat completely still, or hung limp-like. To me, there's nothing wrong with a ball python that balls up when first picked up, and gradually reveals itself when it feels safe.

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Hmmm...

See now I have always interpreted the racing or flopping to be a sign that my BP is not happy or does not want to be handled. I keep handling to a minimum when I get that signal. But, I have always taken a good long period of relaxed stillness to be a good sign. Often times he will sort of wrap around my hand and perch, occasionally changing his view. Also, at these times he seems to like a light stroking on the side of his neck.

Snakey rarely balls up and I have a hard time believing that that's not a good sign. Maybe it doesn't mean he's OK with everything but it is a defensive measure.