odd patterns! pics..

I have a few oddballs in this litter. I love mixing in Rex blood! Rex dad x black hooded dumbo female.

This little gal is a definite keeper..
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...irdhooded1.jpg

Weird..
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...res/oddsib.jpg

Odd little patch of beige on his butt! (shaded area on left butt is actually beige while whole body is white otherwise..)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...s/weirsib2.jpg

ha, that first one is cool looking.
Just bought some more rat cages today and there is a show saturday, hoping to pick up some cool ones.

I like the "weird" one. Heehee.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jamesw

ha, that first one is cool looking.
Just bought some more rat cages today and there is a show saturday, hoping to pick up some cool ones.

---

Saw you are in florida. Where is this show?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snikt228

Saw you are in florida. Where is this show?

---

jacksonville.

Very pretty babies, but honestly, I wouldn't breed them. All are high white and since you may not know their lineage, it's just not a good idea. People don't seem to understand the significance of megacolon until they actually get a megacolon baby(or a whole litter of megacolon babies) and they have to euthanize them because the litter can't thrive and they are suffering.


What female rat are you breeding to get those? If you want to keep breeding her, stick with a self male, one who is only one solid color. That would be your safest option.

It is a Self if his belly is white? I don't think I have ever seen a rat without at least some white on its belly. Male is gray rex with a tad bit of white belly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Very pretty babies, but honestly, I wouldn't breed them. All are high white and since you may not know their lineage, it's just not a good idea. People don't seem to understand the significance of megacolon until they actually get a megacolon baby(or a whole litter of megacolon babies) and they have to euthanize them because the litter can't thrive and they are suffering.


What female rat are you breeding to get those? If you want to keep breeding her, stick with a self male, one who is only one solid color. That would be your safest option.

---

So it would be ok to keep them though? The top one is super friendly; I think that it is male. I would like to keep it as a pet.. but would it be ok to breed it to a solid female? I will find one if so.
Mom was a regular looking black hooded.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ginevive

It is a Self if his belly is white? I don't think I have ever seen a rat without at least some white on its belly. Male is gray rex with a tad bit of white belly.

---

No, not a self with white on it's belly. My Scarlett is a blue self, including her belly. She does throw black berkies (white on the belly, black all everywhere else).

I still wouldn't breed them, since you don't know their whole lineage. I never feel comfortable breeding rats that came from pet stores, since you don't really know where they came from, or if they have had problems before. Sometimes I don't even feel comfortable breeding my rats with pedigrees, if that says anything.

You could probably keep the girls as buddies for the resting females, and the boys as friends for weaned males.

Rats that aren't considered high-white are berkshires(white socks and white belly), selfs(no white anywhere), hoodeds, irish(white on chest), english-irish(white on chest and tummy but not feet), siamese/himalayan. Yours are good examples of high white: first one is a possum marked, second is a variegated w/headspot(anything with a headspot is considered high white), and the third is something that I'm not familiar with, might be considered a low quality dalmation, I don't know...

Becky

Can you please explain to me what is so bad about high whites? The majority of our colony is very white and we have had very few problems.

High whites have a very high probability of carrying the genes that cause megacolon. www.ratguide.com Search for Megacolon. It's the same megacolon that causes lethal white paint horses and some homozygous paints to die. As someone who is trying to prevent megacolon from getting more and more widespread in the pet trade, I try to educate people on what high whites are and why they shouldn't be bred if you do not know their background(4-5 generations). You could have a few generations of just megacolon carriers and not know it, until one day you may give some rats to a friend to breed, and out pops a megacolon litter that they have to euthanize(they cannot be fed off as they are not healthy, and they will not live to be pets).

Alot of people don't seem to get why it's so important to NOT breed the high white rats. There are people who breed exclusively high white rats as pets, and even they get megacolon babies out of careful breeding. Their rats are pedigreed and you can trace their lineage back 6-7 generations, or more, but STILL, it pops up. This is why we need to be careful about selective breeding because the more rats that carry this awful gene that get put into pet stores and peoples' homes, the worse its going to get.

Ex: I adopted a 4 week old blue marked rat from Petsmart. She had late onset megacolon and died at 6 weeks old. All she showed after I got her was slight diarrhea. Then she bloated... So we euthanized her. She was normal sized for a 4 week old baby too, around 35-40g, and was not thin by any means.

Ex 2: A friend of mine rescued a black wedge blazed husky female + her 9? pups from a pet store. 3-4 of those babies ended up with megacolon, and they were all high white. The female had gotten pregnant again while nursing, so after the first litter was weaned, she had another litter of 7, and about 2-3 of those babies ended up with megacolon. Now those remaining babies can't be adopted out because they carry the gene and people are irresponsible and quite possibly would breed them(they are pretty, and alot of people breed for "pretty" and not for health).

So, since you may be feeding the babies off at an earlier age, they quite possibly could have had late onset megacolon and you just didn't know it. It's an ongoing struggle in the pet rat community to keep this horrible gene out of our lines.

/step off soapbox and goes to hide so I don't get smacked ;)

Becky,

I respect your opinion but I would be interested in studies that show the higher incidence of Megacolon in high white litters.

Believe me Jamie, it's definitely not just an opinion :) It's unfortunately the reality and you're welcome to talk to any breeder, United States or otherwise, and ask them about that. They will tell you the same thing I have. There is an extremely high incidence of megacolon in rats that come from unknown lineage, and until it happens in the colony, people will not recognize the huge significance of the warnings...

Well if it helps folks I will share our battle to remove megacolon and it's effects from my own rat breeding. Granted this is just one experience in one colony but take it for what it is. I've included various pics of the rats involved in this particular lineage so you can see their various colors/markings.

This is the matriach of this line...Squeekers....who we purchased from a pet shop as a very young rat (this is the day of purchase before we realized the poor thing was carrying a litter already). She unfortunately turned out to be pregnant by some unknown pet store male. She did successfully deliver 8 young, which surpised me considering how young she was herself. Her litter were some of the prettiest rats I'd ever seen so I kept three...2 females...1 male.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...s/Sqeekers.jpg

These are her two daughters at a young age. DaisyMae is the possum faced ones, Tiffany is the beige and white with the diamond shape on her head...
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...kersgirls2.jpg

This is the male (as a baby) we kept from the litter...Lightning for the jagged mark on his face....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...Lightning1.jpg

Now here as they say is "the rest of the story".....

Lightning, DaisyMae and Tiffany all went on to be breeders. I listened to Becky's worries but I decided if I was "careful" I could breed my "pretty" rats.

Lightning fathered his first litters, three litters. Out of the one litter we had a horrible, sad megacolon baby which we had to put down. Out of the second litter we had three, well best I can describe is failure to thrive babies. I've never seen or had born into our colony such pitiful looking baby rats. Even the ones that survived to weaning age and were fed off were probably the worst feeders I've ever bred. Only one litter, from Jet, was normal. Lighting was mostly retired as a breeder and is now just a companion rat in the colony. He is only very occasionally allowed to cover Jet, a female pure black with not one white hair on her rat and their offspring are fine but are never kept as future breeding stock.

DaisyMae, who I should NEVER have bred died nursing her first litter. I feel awful that I bred this rat when I was aware of the risks but since she "seemed" fine I foolishly went ahead. Something in DaisyMae was obviously not "fine". She delivered successfully but never recovered her strength and simply wasted away. We found her litter huddling with their dead mother one morning. Lesson learned...I should have listened about high white rats. I really adored DaisyMae and her goofy possum face and I still feel like a creep for allowing her to breed and die that way.

Last is Tiffany. She's not right either. She is healthy enough but appears to have some sort of eyesight issues or balance problems. She has a distinct head sway, not awful but still not normal. She's highly nervous and startles easily. She's a lovely female, seems happy enough with the other female rats but somethings not right with her.

So that's my story of the high white line in our rat colony. It's been a very depressing chapter with a number of rats lost either with passing away/put down or as viable producers of top quality feeders. For me, I hate producing any creature that's not perfectly healthy, I feel awfully responsible if I pair the wrong rats and their babies aren't big and hardy or the adult rat suffers for my breeding decisions.

I knew about high whites and megacolon but after this experience I believe there are other issues with them especially if they are indiscrimately bred as I'm sure Squeekers was coming out of that pet store. I have a lot of the same concerns for Blues as they seem to have a much higher incidence of early death, disease and unstable temperments coming out of pet stores. I think high whites and blues should be bred only with extreme care, a solid knowledge of their genetics and a very careful choice in the rat they are allowed to breed with.

I learned my lesson with this one line of rats. The part that bothers me is in the end my rats paid the price for my knowledge.

Are Albinos considered high whites?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jglass38

Are Albinos considered high whites?

---

Yes...but that fact alone does not in itself make it a risky animal to breed. The reason that the rat community preaches that "high white" rats are risky to breed has little (my guess would be nothing) to do with the genetics of the rat being "high white" . The issue is that hooded, capped and possum faced are overbred (even over inbred for that matter) so the likelihood that they were exposed to Megacolon or some other genetic flaw are higher then say a less common color/pattern. The mass producers just breed for speed without regard for flaws and these "high white" are the most common "fancy rat" to sell to the Petco's and Petsmart's of the world. The reason agoti have the lowest incident of megacolon (as reported by rat sites) is who really wants a gray/brown pet rat (one that conjours images of the common street rat)...so there has been less breeding and therefore less chance of exposure to a genetic flaw.

Really there is NO way to know for sure that a particular rat does/does not carry the Megacolon genetic flaw until you breed them. As Becky points out if you know far enough back in the family history of a given animal you can guess that it is safe - but she points out a case at 7 generations where it still popped up - so you never really know).

Albinos are another "who wants a lab rat" color pattern so the chance of exposure is lower then a fancy...but until you breed her you won't know.

I agree with Joanna and Becky...once an animal has been proven to carry Megacolon the animal and any offspring should be destroyed (fed or euthanized) and if the parents are known they should be too.

Albinos aren't high white, they are a dilute of a color. And colors really don't mean much, it's the markings that have the predisposition of carrying bad things along with them(except for American blues, which are inbred beyond all recognition). I wish I could get rats from England.. Theirs don't have these problems and live longer, healthier lives.

And I'm sorry Jo that you had to go through that. If only more people understood WHY I get all pissified when someone wants to breed these kinds of rats.

Stick with the basics; hooded, self, berkshire, irish, english irish, PEW, "pointed" rats such as russian blue point, seal point, himalayan, etc.

FWIW, the best rat I ever had was a plain ol' agouti hooded. The healthiest and sturdiest rats I have right now are the agouti self male(from CA), my two rex dumbo boys(black and agouti, both irish marked) and my girls who range from black hoodeds, black irish/berkshire rexes, one blue-based platinum. Then there's the little american blue blazed dumbo girl who has allergies and is stunted from being weaned too early. I also have a blue-agouti capped w/headspot harley dumbo male who has the worst skin in the world from so much inbreeding. He needs medicated baths every 3-4 days, his nails clipped so he doesn't scratch himself raw, antibiotics to prevent his normal skin bacteria from going rampant, and a special diet with TONS of omega fatty acids to help improve his skin and coat.

I'm just saying these things because I guess I don't see why the rats have to be "pretty" in order to feed the snakes. Yeah, they may be nice for the owner to look at, but if you're creating sick(and dying) and immune-deficient rats from these breedings, then the snakes don't benefit at all from it anyway.

Anyway! Back to your regularly scheduled programming!

This has been a very eye-opening post for me. I never knew about this in rats. I knew about it in horses fom talking to my friend who deals with a herd of 100-150 apha mares, colts, and fillies. I know about he horrific possibility of breeding high white x high white.. the poor mare will go through a full term pregnancy and give birth to a dying foal. That kind of thing just makes me want to cry. I would never want to cause an animal to suffer that.
I know that with Paint horses though, it is common to breed the high-whites to a solid/mostly solid stud. I know that there are a lot of high-white Paint/pinto horses running around out there (I own one, but of course she will never be bred.. first and only breeding was my "friend's" doing and was to a solid black stud..) So would it be the same with the rats then; being OK to breed them to a solid sire? If so, would a Berk be close enough?
Can the high-white rats be compared to the "Impressive" line of Paints that are known for carrying Hypp?
I do know mom's lineage in this litter; she is a black hooded. In 2003, I got a male Gray dumbo Self; he was solid gray, not blue; and a female black hooded from my friend. She got them from a local woman who breeds; I don't have her information but I remember talking to her. It is hard to remember because I do not keep dates of breedings; I just go by the female's weight and size to determine when she's ready to breed. I raised this dam out of this lineage with no problems.. The mom I have now.. has to be at least 5-6 generations from the original pair.
Now, the dad, I recently bought his dad at Markheim pets. He is a gray Berk rex dumbo. They only had blue/gray rexes and himis in his breeding colony.
My best female breeder? My himi girl. :)
Edit: the offspring in this post, I do not plan to breed. I am only planning/asking about re-breeding mom; she has been a great breeder thus far; this is her second litter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Albinos aren't high white, they are a dilute of a color. And colors really don't mean much, it's the markings that have the predisposition of carrying bad things along with them

---

I disagree with you here. Albinos can be considered the "super" form "cc" of high white rats while the patterns (that have high amounts of white) are a het form "Hc" as a capped example. (It is not this simple but for explanation purposes that is easier to understand :) ) Yes, it is dilute in how the color is formed (it is recessive) but so is the white on a capped, hooded, or other "high white" animal.

The markings alone aren't the issue...the issue is that these "fancy rats" are more common and therefore more inbred so the likelihood of them having the megacolon gene is increased.

Actually according to the AFRMA, Albino's are actually just colored rats, however the albino gene just prevents the expression of that color, so I don't see how an Albino is truly a "high white" genetically.

http://www.afrma.org/pewrats.htm

Irregardless of whether it's high white, pattern, inbreeding, whatever...I know what my own experience has been and I'm now extremely cautious with certain pairings. Watching young rats I caused to be born, struggle for life, with horribly distended bellies, or unable to thrive because of genetic faults.....well I don't particularily care if they are "only" destined to be feeders....I simply will not allow that to occur in my rat colony.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

Actually according to the AFRMA, Albino's are actually just colored rats, however the albino gene just prevents the expression of that color, so I don't see how an Albino is truly a "high white" genetically..

---

Right...it is the same gene that gives a hooded the white belly or a capped the white sides/belly. So the "white" gene is "c" - in an Albino it would look like"cc", in a capped it is "Hc" where the "H" is the gene for the color on the head. So the Albino is really the highest white.

That is why self (all color) would be "HH"

Again this is simplistic (there are many more genes in some markings)

Pretty rats.

I have oodles of the rats that you call "weird." They're not breeders. Just feeders. In fact, I hardly even keep any rats out of litters, anymore. The two latest litters my girls had are being searched for the perfect breeder, but just one will be "lucky" enough to live. Everyone else will get fed off. I sound heartless, but it's more expensive to keep a bunch of "pet rats" than buy my own snake food!

I'm definitely aware of the risk of megacolon. Apparently my girls carry a "high white" gene, but they are not marked that way, nor are the males they have been bred with. It has got to be the genes in the girls, as I've tried different males with them, and have had same results.

I respect everyone's opinion about avoiding breeding high whites, but as Becky stated, some people breed exclusively for that. I don't, but it happens anyway. All I'm saying is, megacolon isn't too much of a concern to me because I'm not selling these rats to people, not keeping them to breed or keeping them as pets...just my opinion.

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for such an informative thread, and an enjoyable read as well. Special thanks to Becky, Sean and Jo for their great input.

Rakshasi, you should be concerned because if those rats DO get megacolon, then that means they are not absorbing their food properly and in turn your snakes are not getting the proper nutrition. Healthy prey makes for healthy snakes.

And Tim, I'm glad you found this very informative :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Rakshasi, you should be concerned because if those rats DO get megacolon, then that means they are not absorbing their food properly and in turn your snakes are not getting the proper nutrition. Healthy prey makes for healthy snakes.

---

I agree Becky! And this is why it is just as important to consider what you are feeding your feeders. This is all your snakes eat (garbage in garbage out), so making sure your feeders eat a nutrious and balanced diet, are healthy and fit and well taken care of only goes to benefit your snakes in the end.

Bah.. I am going to just stick to breeding my himis, berks, and the like. I want strong, sturdy rats with prime genetics.. this megacolon expose' makes me wonder why I am breeding rats that are more susceptible to megacolon for my beloved snakes. I only breed for feedings I do have some snakes that prefer white-colored babies; the himis give me those every time. (like my BCI; seems like since he hunts by sight, whites are easier for him to see..)
Maybe it is just me, but adding in the rex blood seems to have made for better babies. My old stud threw good ones, but the rexes seem a tad stouter in build.. then again, maybe I am just a nut :)

So do all mostly-white rats have megacolon? Delphi is like I said, at least 5-6 generations away from my original pair. Come to think of it, her sister and fellow breeder, Minky, is also.. she's a berk.
So if I know the female's lineage back this far, and not having MC rear its ugly head, that is it safe to assume that they will not birth megacoloned babies? I know for a fact that dad, the rex, came from a colony of solely himis and slate rex.
I normally keep one female from every few litters to raise up as a breeder.
I have never had megacolon in the females that I have raised and bred from this line. most bred maybe 4-5 litters and were used as BCI food for my friend's large snake.
Delphi and litter: my research seems to point to her being bareback,not hooded? This is her third healthy litter.

http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s...arabackmom.jpg

Minky and her litter.. it does have a few hoodeds. Mom out of my original (2003?) stock, that I talked abot in my other post, was black hooded.
Minky is Berk.

http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s...cres/minky.jpg

Stud: Markheim slate (or blue?) rex dumbo male, Rupert. Not a great shot of him.

http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s...rupertstud.jpg

My original slate (or gray?) male bred well until pretty recently when he had started violently attacking the females that I was putting him with; he had my one girl bleeding all over the place and sadly I had to put her down :( She was Delph's sister.. he was old by then, and I ended up feeding him off.. got Rupert's dad from Markheim and Rupert was his son.. out of my himi girl. Rupert's dad I gave to a friend.

Edit: I have no idea why my pics are not working. I posted the same way that I always post pics.. crapola.

Nope, you're not a nut.. Ok.. Maybe ya are, but you're with friends :)

All of my rexes have been huge and just big-boned. They are known for having very large, robust litters, and if from good lines, don't have many health problems(one of my satin rexes did have congestive heart failure, but yeah, bad breeder).

Your first girl, obviously produces very high white babies(possums, the boy with beige spot on butt, etc). She is a bareback with a headspot, and the headspot makes her even more prone. If you want to breed her, just keep with self, irish or berk males, even hooded is fine. I wouldn't breed her offspring though.

Your other female is fine, being a berkshire. It's not considered high white.

I don't think I wll breed her babies ever. see, I have a need for a female friend that never gets bred. I like keeping my girls in pairs while they are either recuperating from a litter, or bred and building babies inside.. trouble is, they are all at different stages of pregnancy, nursing, and weaning! So one-two "dry girls" would be awesome companions to my girls..
Delph is not that old. I might breed her 1-2 more times, since she is such a great mom. In the meantime I am raising up more females out of my himis' and Minky's litters, as well as another berk I am raising up for eventual breeding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

I learned my lesson with this one line of rats. The part that bothers me is in the end my rats paid the price for my knowledge.

---

Wow Jo; I am really sorry that you had to go through all of that. It makes me sad that pet stores just have a bunch of rats and let them breed with whatever.. it just shows their ignorance and complete disregard for their animals :(