Bath experience / needs a checkup?

Little bit of background story...

So, I used to have my BP's water dish halfway covered and located right by his hide and he used to soak alot. He eventually started soaking way too much I think partly because he was getting too big for the arrangment and the water dish was starting to make the best hide. I used to have the warm-side alot hotter back then so that may have had something to do with it too. I changed things around and uncovered his dish and he adopted his new hide and everything has been hunky-dory for a while.

Meanwhile, there's his whole chin rubbing thing. He's always rubbed the sides of his mouth against his grape-wood log. He used to only do it after feeding but now he does it anytime he's out and about. His mouth looks clean when he yawns and I can't see anything amiss on the outside. But, he just yawns alot and always does this rubbing thing.

Now to my story...

Yesterday he seemed like he was getting a bit darker on the sides and this morning I definately noticed his eye-stripe was looking really dingy. I figured he's probably a bit dirty. The coloration may have been just an illusion of the lighting at the time. But, rubbing his head all over the place was bound to get him dirty. Since he doesn't soak any more I looked up a bath thread I saw a while back and gave it a read.

I did the 1-inch of warm water in the bathtub thing. I probably should have taken more time to put him in because he freaked out a bit at first. ("help help I'm drowning!!!) He went under and then got his wits and started swimming. I've never seen him move so much it was wild! He recoiled once when there was nothing in front of him so I think perhaps he couldn't see too well against the big white tub as a background. Eventually, he chilled out some more but he was still looking like he wasn't having alot of fun so I went to get him out.

Now, he can be pretty cooperative about getting picked up at times but I don't think I've ever seen him quite this cooperative - LOL. Also, after I picked him up he was very serene. I pulled up the front of my shirt to dry him off a bit and he patiently waited while looking up at me like "Daddy?" or "Thank God for saving my life!" I'm not sure. Also, when I put him back in his tank he was very chilled out and basked for a little bit before calmy retiring to his hide. In the end I think he really liked it but maybe the details need improvement.

This head rubbing thing does worry me a bit though. I know he's getting close to shed (not in blue though - its just been several weeks) but it just seems like something that most people don't see often or at all. Should I get him a check-up at a vet?

The amount of head rubbing and yawning would suggest a possible respiratory infection, which cannot be cleared up without antibiotic treatments, it will quietly progress, and since ball pythons are good at hiding illnesses until they are REALLY sick (other than the rubbing and yawning appears otherwise healthy to you), I would find a qualified herp vet to see him and do a culture to a) rule out a RI or b) identify what strain and best antibiotic to treat with.

Good luck.

Yea, I'm really wanting to go even if only for a general checkup and to hear that he's OK. I've got a list of vets from dr. del by PM. I'm sure I can find one here.

so, what about poop sample. he's due for one any day now should I go ahead and take that in too?

A few more details here:

I've had him since Jan '07. They had $99 balls marked "Extra Fancy" and $69 balls marked "Fancy" and I was told that the difference in price and marking what due to the fact that the x-tra fancies came from a breeder that they knew well while the others were not. I had set a budget for myself and, honestly, Snakey caught my eye from the very beginning and he looked as fancy as any of them in there. So, Snakey was a bargain bin buy. Great disposition, strong eater, grows fast, etc. The attendant estimated that Snakey was born (hatched?) roughly Sept. '06.

He's has always yawned alot. The mouth rubbing thing, however, has developed over time since I've owned him. I would say that it started a few months ago and, for some time, he would only do a few times right after feeding. Recently, say last month, the frequency and intensity of the running has increased alot and can be seen whenever he's out and about. Otherwise, he's still the great, healthy snake he's always been.

Does this timeline match that of an RI?

Having not experienced a RI in my own collection yet, it's hard for me to say on the timeline. Are you seeing any "slime", sort of like what a slug leaves behind where he's rubbing? Run your fingers around his enclosure and on smooth surfaces and see if you feel anything that feels "sticky" or "tacky".


Often when they are constantly rubbing their mouths, they are trying to clear mucus from their mouths, and it will leave that residue behind.

As for the poop sample, if it's within a few days of your vet visit, it wouldn't hurt to take a sample in (refrigerated, not frozen) to test for internal parasites.

Good luck, I'm sure a wellness visit from your vet will ease any concerns that you may have. Be sure, however, that the vet do a culture to test for the RI (take a swab from his mouth). That way you'll know without a doubt and can catch it early on if he does have one.

So, Snakey went to the vet today. The vet is on the ARAV list and has won "vet of the year" type awards from the Texas Veterinarions Association (or some such). He has both a general "unconventional species" as well as a specialized avian one. As you might guess he is a bird specialist. So, some good and bad. His knowledge of snakes seemed good. He certainly seemed to know his way around one. :O

I've never seen Snakey so P.O.'ed before. He was a good boy though - no hissing or biting. The vet was impressed and said he didn't act like a ball but more like a burm.

The vet did identify mild signs of infection in Snakey's mouth: an excess of mucuous and a darker pink color at the back of the mouth by the throat. He said he may have RI and gave me some anti-biotics. I asked about culture and he said that he has done perhaps thousands of cultures on snakes and 99% of the time the bacteria can be killed with this stuff call "baytil". He offered to do one but said that it was $90 and that he preferred to try the antibiotic first and then do the more expensive testing if the problem did not go away. It sounded very reasonable to me.

There was only one thing that didn't sit well with me. As he was finalizing his diagnosis and explaining it to me he kept saying "open mouth breathing". Initially I said "well I wouldn't call it that" and then he kept on and said it again. I said "Look, I want to make sure we're clear here. I came here because he rubs his mouth and yawns alot. He does not breath with an open mouth." So, he got him back out and re-inspected his jaw area and gums very closely. They looked very good. Then he showed me his "wet mouth" and the throat and said it looked like RI. BUT, I was just looking some stuff up on snake health problem for a post and I see RI and this thing called "stomatis". The description of RI was kind of close. Then I read "stomatis" and right there it was "mouth rubbing"! Does Snakey have mouth rot?!?!

Hi,


I think it's called "Baytril". ( well it is over here)

It's something I have had prescribed for URI's before - the reason we say culture is because a lot of the advice we give comes from large scale keepers who, obviously, have a lot more animals and want the infection killed first time to prevent it spreading and a culture gaurantees only an effective treatment is used first time out the gate as it were.

And a yawn IS open mouthed breathing if you think of it - it opens its mouth and gasps for air. Now if the infection became more intense then that would become more and more apparent till he was sitting with his mouth open for extended periods.

As Robin already said in her earlier post mouth rubbing is also a feature of RI's as they try and relieve themselves of the excess mucus.

Stomatitis has a markedly different appearance in the mouth of the animal and it is extremely unlikely a competant herp vet would confuse them.

You say his gums and jaws were clear when a search for pictures of stomatitis will show you that it presents with red, inflamed spots or cheesy build up in those areas.

If the vet showed you excess mucus and visible inflamation of the respiritory tract then accept the fact you have an infection of the respiritory tract.


dr del

One other thing to note, since you didn't specify in your re-cap. Was the Baytril oral or injectible? Reptiles do not absorb oral mediations effeciently, so injectible is much more effective in treating the RI.

It's good that it sounds like you've caught it early on!

After reading some more on Stomatitis I came to the conclusion that his mouth looked far too clean to match the majority of the symptom descriptions. So yes, I'm going to trust the vet.

gotta run....to be continued...

Very important....did the vet give you antibiotics that were administered orally or injected?

FYI...oral antibiotics have been shown to be not effective in ball pythons. Injection is the only way to go.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Very important....did the vet give you antibiotics that were administered orally or injected?

FYI...oral antibiotics have been shown to be not effective in ball pythons. Injection is the only way to go.

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I hear an echo! :P :D

hello....hello..hello.. echo...echo...echo.. yep :)

ok, I'm back.

Yes it was oral. I imagine the decision was partly due to the fact that handing out needles to people and telling them to inject their pets doesn't go over to well. I called the manager of the pet store (David) and he agreed that it should be injectible and, as I was hoping, said that they would be happy to do the injecting for me. He said you can't inject the milky white stuff so I need to go back to the vet and politely request injectible form. David didn't bag the vet and said he probably had a little hole in his knowledge there. I agreed and pointed out that Dr. Echols is a bird specialist. David immediately said "That makes sense because oral Baytril works great for birds." Mystery solved! So I'm going to go back tomorrow and get the injectible form.

Dave also recommended some husbandry changes yesterday. He told me to switch from the spagnum/fir substrate I had been using to newspaper for the time being to minimize irritants. He told me to clean and disinfect. He also said I should raise the general temperature in the cage, allow only minimal air flow, and keep it at about 70% humidity.

So, that's where its at. Snakey just looks at me like I'm a treacherous b*stard now. He's still mad. I always handle him very gently and carefully and that vet's bedside manner was, let's just say, "businesslike". I nearly freaked out at the beginning of the exam. Oh man, the tongue depressor in the mouth scraping across his teeth still makes me cringe. I'm confident in my ability to learn to give injections but I'm seriously considering just letting somebody else be the bad guy from here on out (I was helping the vet restrain Snakey during the exam).

They should show you to administer the injectables. It's not difficult but you have to do it in the correct spot.

Oh yea, and the vet said that he thought Snakey was slightly overweight. He mentioned something about a weight scale and said he gave him a 3.5 out of 5 and 3 was ideal. Snakey is probably 10 mos old and 30" long and he weighed 374 grams (first time I've been able to weight him!). I know he's got the remnants of at least 5 mice inside of him so that probably didn't help. The vet suggested I keep him at his current 2 small mice feed and switch to a 10 day cycle. He also suggested Snakey avoid wearing Speedos when going poolside. :P

oh yea, where are my manners???

Thanks Guys*!!!

("Guys" meant to express comradery and does not denote gender, sexual orientation, or sexual preference. All rights reserved. See back of post for details.)

I can't say that I disagree with any of the suggestions made by Dave on husbandry changes, increased humidity will help Snakey to loosen the mucus while the antibiotics do their work. Warmer temperatures are also good for him.


Sounds like Snakey's going to be healthy in no time!

rabernet: I know you've said that you believe a 7 day feeding cycle is best. How important is that vs 10 days do you think? I had already decided that the "fattening up" phase was over and was considering simply leveling off his meal size and letting him outgrow it. I had also considered 10 day cycles because I had seen it recommended before (i.e. "7-10" days) and it seems like you blow 2-3 days of every week with digestion/potty. If, as you said, I'm not to worry about his increased activity levels at day 4 as a sign of impending starvation then it does seem like a 10 day cycle would leave more "quality time" with which to enjoy my pet.

Discuss.

The vet that saw Snakey is out the rest of the week but one of the other three vets in the clinic just called. I think its really awesome he phoned me at 8:46 PM to follow up which only makes me feel worse. He was polite about it, but ultimate very defensive.

As politely as I could I told him that, since the visit, I had talked to several experienced ball-python keepers/breeders and they had all confirmed the doctor's instructions with the exception of the use of oral Baytril. Initially he mentioned issues with the needles and I could understand that. There is a certain class of customer you see at the exotic pet store that very likely would have alternate uses for the needles. I told him I didn't even want the needles I was going to have Dave do all the injecting anyway.

After that, he went into defending their honor. He told me that they've treated tons of RI's in balls and that they hadn't found that to be the case. Also, he said that since Snakey's infection was very mild he doubted that injections would be needed.

I did my best to handle it. I said "Look, I'm not saying the doctor did anything wrong. I've just heard the same story over and over and I'm concerned for my pet that I've become quite attached to." He continued to be polite but he just got colder and more formal as the discussion went on and it became more clear to him that I wasn't going to be swayed.

So, I'm clear to pick the stuff up tomorrow but i'm feeling lower than Snakey's belly about now. Frickin' doctors...

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Originally Posted by bearhart

rabernet: I know you've said that you believe a 7 day feeding cycle is best. How important is that vs 10 days do you think? I had already decided that the "fattening up" phase was over and was considering simply leveling off his meal size and letting him outgrow it. I had also considered 10 day cycles because I had seen it recommended before (i.e. "7-10" days) and it seems like you blow 2-3 days of every week with digestion/potty. If, as you said, I'm not to worry about his increased activity levels at day 4 as a sign of impending starvation then it does seem like a 10 day cycle would leave more "quality time" with which to enjoy my pet.

Discuss.

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You snake is just 10 months old. I don't find 374 grams to be too big for that age in a growing snake.

Remind me what he gets every 7 days currently? I keep a 7 day feed schedule from babies to adults with size appropriate meals (appropriate for their current size).

Don't feel bad for advocating for your snake. If you won't, who will?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

You snake is just 10 months old. I don't find 374 grams to be too big for that age in a growing snake.

Remind me what he gets every 7 days currently? I keep a 7 day feed schedule from babies to adults with size appropriate meals (appropriate for their current size).

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If you follow the girth rule he can eat one jumbo adult mouse but I've switched to feeding him two small adults per week because my preferred pet store usually only has smalls and a few mediums.

His general look is that he's just started to get a slight "sausage" look. By that I mean a fairly quick decrease in thickness right before the vent. Most of the photos I've seen around here lately are of females so I'm not sure. But he's definately not as plump as they tend to be.

He coloration has changed lately. He's gotten a darker, mottled appearance. The vet agreed with my suspicion that this was due to impending shed. However, the vet also pointed out the scales on Snakey's back which are all dark in the center but have a light outline at the border between the next scale. He compared them to the scales on Snakey's sides which appeared solid in color (no outlines). He told me that that was due to obesity.

Sounds to me like he's about to poop with the sharp decrease in size after the vent.


Two small adult mice a week sounds like an appropriate schedule to me.

Was the vet meaning there was stretching of the scales? That can be a sign of a too fat snake but 374 grams doesn't sound bad at all for an almost yearling. Pics of the area the vet was referring to as well as top view pics of your snake might be helpful.

As far as advocating for the treatment you want for your snake remember this...it's your snake and your cash...the vet works for you. Unless what you are asking for is a dangerous treatment with little good effect or will ultimately harm your animal, the vet needs to work with the client. Not much different when you have children, sometimes you have to go head to head with the doctors who get in a rut with what they are comfortable with even if current findings are saying something different is in order.

If you think about it, it makes perfect sense that oral meds would not be as effective. We're talking about a species that has stomach acids that are so strong they easily dissolve bone, teeth and fur. Not much of a stretch for me to believe that same acid would pretty much nullify any med poured into it in pretty short order.

Oh handy trick for checking your snake's mouth. Hit the kitchen supply section of any department store and pick up some soft spatula's (they usually come in a package of various sizes). Not the hard rubber ones but the softer ones that bend a bit. They make an excellent tool for popping open a snake's mouth. Just rigid enough to do the job but with enough give to not harm or scratch. Anytime we've had to check a snake's mouth here we just gently introduce the side of the spatula (picking the appropriate size) and very gently rotate the spatula....easy as pie the mouth opens, the spatula keeps it open and we have a good look at the mouth and glottis. Afterwards they can be cleaned well, disinfected and stored in a big ziploc baggie.

Personally I'd put that snake on layers of soft, plain white papertowels. That way you can easily and clearly see any discharge he wipes off against it.

Oh forgot to add, it's very nice to see a pet store owner that is this educated about snakes and their needs. Very refreshing after the usual very bad advice we mostly see coming out of the majority of pet stores. :)

If there are any other exotic vets in your area, you might want to do some calling around to try to find one more experienced with reptiles... just in case you ever have a more serious problem and need the best treatment for your snake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Oh forgot to add, it's very nice to see a pet store owner that is this educated about snakes and their needs. Very refreshing after the usual very bad advice we mostly see coming out of the majority of pet stores. :)

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Yea David is a good guy who has been working with snakes for 16 years. I just went to see him today for help injecting the new Baytril I got. I was impressed at his ability to inspect Snakey and his knowledge of infections, meds, and what else might be wrong. I felt alot better than after seeing the vet for sure.

He is, however, very "easy going" on husbandry issues. He established alot of my initial ideas, most of which would not fly around here. Today I was discussing temps with him and he just will not recommend anything beyond an always on UTH with an inch or two of substrate, a hide on the warm spot, and a heat lamp - and let the snake do the rest. He doesn't poo-poo more highly controlled situations he just feels its overkill. Trying to resolve this just drives me nuts. As he was talking today I was thinking "yea well I know a little better on that" and this guy next to me who had come in and been listening pipes up and says he's had his BP for 13 years with a slightly smaller UTH and no heat lamp. of course, anybody can say that the snake is actually being mistreated and the guy just thinks its normal but 13 years is a pretty good run. So my world has been turned upside down again - at least where husbandry is concerned! LOL

Snakey took his shot and Dave mentioned some other possibilities if the Baytril doesn't work. I also got hooked up with another vet that sounds alot easier to work with.