feeder size

hi all, i was just wondering when its time to upgrade to a bigger size of rat for my ball.
shes approx 16inchs, and eating f/t rat pups.
when do i know when to switch her to a bigger size or offer her 2 rat pups or what.
thanks for the help!

just feed slightly less than your snake's girth

I also watch post-feed behavior. If your snake remains active after the feed, seems to be looking around, and generally gives you the impression that he just had a light snack - its too little.

Also, I watch the behavior over the week. I try to shoot for a meal size that knocks him out for a couple of days and keeps him pretty chilled out until right before feeding day. If he starts hunting more than two days before feeding day then I usually feed early and/or increase the serving size.

Also, keep in mind that you can also increase the number of prey items offered during the feed. Previously, I was feeding singles and increasing the size. I've found that its much harder for the snake to swallow and really limits the amount you can feed him. Instead, I've switched to feeding 2 or 3 small prey items at one time.

Hun, if I did that with most of mine, they would look like scaley hippos. I have one little 300-350g baby who is intent on eating my face/hands/fingers regardless of if she has had one mouse or three. These aren't fuzzy mice or anything, just to be clear. She gets 1-2 adult mice and that's it, because she doesn't NEED anymore. It is only until the day after feeding that she actually will calm down(retic feeding response).

Same as Becky here - they get fed one day a week and that's it, and fed only what they need, not what they "could" eat.


I think Adam said it best once before - his son would eat an entire bag of cheetos if he let him. Just because he CAN, doesn't mean it's good for him. Just because mine "could" eat more and more frequently, doesn't mean that they should.

And if they refuse one week and look hungry before the next feeding day - oh well - bullseye or bust for my crew.

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Originally Posted by tmlowe5704

just feed slightly less than your snake's girth

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actually you feed a little more than your snakes girth so that he has a small bulge after feeding.

find one prey item that is the correct size to fill him up but not to big. i showed you the rodent pro site and if you are feeding one now that is smaller than should be i would step up to the next size. and feed once a week as the others said..

Yea mine is a very strong feeder. After tonight I'm definately convinced he can't be trusted to not over-eat (3 adults and he's only 30"). But, my decision to try feeding him this much was based on the fact that he was clearly ready to eat again by day 4. On the other hand, he was still knocked out in bed on day 2. I do still think that post-feed activity is a good indicator. But, I'm less sure about how often to feed. Weeks are a human invention and so "once a week" is convenient for us. This makes me unsure about the schedule when he's checking every little corner in his cage on day 5.

Thing is that my boy never used to be like this but I swear lately he's gone mouse crazy. He throws down small adults like nothing and as soon as he's had a good "movement" he's is ready and rarin'. Maybe he needs a 12-step program or something. Maybe I do...

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Originally Posted by NickMyers03

actually you feed a little more than your snakes girth so that he has a small bulge after feeding.

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Actually you don't. I never want to see a bulge when I feed, if I have, I've overfed.

Smaller appropriately sized weekly meals will lead to a more consistently feeding snake (I have sixteen ball pythons in my collection that ate the entire winter, I did not experience the dreaded "winter fast" with any of mine).

Mine consistently put on 75 to 100 grams a month during their first year of growth.

Ball pythons are opportunistic feeders and if given the chance WILL eat more than they require. That will lead to more frequent food refusals over the course of a year, often for a few weeks to a few months at a time.

As I said before, just because they can, doesn't mean that they should. Most ball pythons in captivity are overfed. They certainly don't get 52 meals a year in their natural environment.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

But, my decision to try feeding him this much was based on the fact that he was clearly ready to eat again by day 4. On the other hand, he was still knocked out in bed on day 2. I do still think that post-feed activity is a good indicator. But, I'm less sure about how often to feed. Weeks are a human invention and so "once a week" is convenient for us. This makes me unsure about the schedule when he's checking every little corner in his cage on day 5.

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Based on your limited experience with owning a ball python, what indicators makes you believe that he's clearly ready to eat by day 4? Are you sure you're interpreting his actions correctly as hunger motivated?

Sure, he ate when you offered the food, because it was there, and ball pythons are opportunistic feeders, until they've had too much - and then they fast to catch up. Their wild instinct makes them eat when food is offered, because in the wild, it may be weeks, even months before they get another prey item. In captivity, they get meals handed to them 52 times a year.

Once a week is not just convenient for "us". Once a week is recommended from the years of hard work and studies done by folks like the Barkers, Kevin and Kara, BHB, etc - folks who are truely students of ball pythons with years of data.

I don't see any need to re-invent the wheel and second guess them, they've been working with these animals much longer than I have - why would my individual ball pythons have any different requirements than the thousands that they've collectively worked with and studied?

each and every herper has their own method of feeding and so on. all of my snakes eat every time offered ( and only offered once a week ) unless in shed. only 2 do not eat while in shed. i have added a picture of my Mojave produced by Ron Crawford at RCReptiles.com and you can see a "slight" bluge about 1/3 down his body. people think that bulge means huge like a female in ovulation but this is what i am talking about. also given that he is turned the arch in his back makes it look larger than it is but you can see what i am talking about.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...k03/mojave.jpg

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Originally Posted by NickMyers03

actually you feed a little more than your snakes girth so that he has a small bulge after feeding.

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That is certainly a popular point of view for feeding snakes, but personally I do things a little differently.

Over the last decade plus of keeping ball pythons, I've found that smaller meals help ball pythons feed and grow more consistently.

That doesn't mean that it's "wrong" to "lump" you're ball pythons or feed them meals larger than their girth ... it just means that in my experience, in my collection, I've seen that larger meals and lumps lead to higher incidences of fasting and growth in "spurts". When feeding smaller size meals, my snakes hardly ever skip a meal and their growth is much more predictable.

Even my largest adult females (3600+ grams) only get small small rats and I'm sure people on the forum that have seen them in person will agree that they are very well fed.

I think when you work with ball pythons for any amount of time you'll quickly understand that their feeding response and metabolism is very different than other types of snakes that do well with "lumping". In my opinion, they need a slightly different feeding style than other species.

In the end, the best thing you can do for your snake(s) is what works best for you and your animal. Don't be afraid to try different things in order to find the best way for you! ;) :D

-adam

Well all I can say is pictures tell the story. Two of our bigger females, neither of which have ever eaten bigger than girth prey.

Orlah at well over 2,000 grams....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...71582grams.jpg

Brannagh at just over 3,000 grams....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...s5feetlong.jpg

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Even my largest adult females (3600+ grams) only get small small rats and I'm sure people on the forum that have seen them in person will agree that they are very well fed.

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I know this has been asked before yet I haven't been able to find the answer...so, just how much does a "small small rat" weigh?

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Originally Posted by dalvers63

I know this has been asked before yet I haven't been able to find the answer...so, just how much does a "small small rat" weigh?

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Not sure ... I'd guess probably 40 - 50 grams ... For me, they are the rats that I pull one week (or less) after being weaned ... 2 weeks after weaning is a little larger than I like to feed.

-adam

Thanks, Adam. That actually helps a lot!

LOL Adam I go with the tried and true (though horribly unscientific).."well that looks about right" system of rat picking. After enough rats and snakes it seems I'm getting fairly good on that....well except for picky arse Rionnach. With her I can easily go through three or four trots back to the feeder bin until I get what in her estimation is the exact right, this is worth my regal time to eat it rat. :D

How sad is it that I'm a grown, reasonably intelligent female going "okay Ri Ri here's a LOVELY rat...oh not one you like...*back to the feeder bin*....now here we have a really nice one, see the lovely coat on it, just the right....ahhh crapola *back to dig through the recently weaned feeding bin*...now this one Ri, absolutely....*sigh, back to the bin again*....how about...WHUMP!!!....*sigh of relief as Miss Picky eats her dinner*

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I'm less sure about how often to feed. Weeks are a human invention and so "once a week" is convenient for us. This makes me unsure about the schedule when he's checking every little corner in his cage on day 5.

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if you feed a ball every week of the year, thats 52 mice/rats a year (or 104 if you feed two mice). that is alot more then a snake will eat in the wild in a year. so while weeks are convenient for us, feeding multiple times a week bumps the total amount of mice eaten in a year way up.

plus what Adam said :)

To those who feed smaller prey items:

When you feed your bigger balls, Do you feed multiple small items in one sitting. Feed one small item twice a week (or more if needed). Or just one item a week period. And do you think the whole rat vs. mouse thing comes in to play with this type of feeding schedule.

Dang - I've been away and missed alot of good discussion.

So, yea I have limited experience which is why I'm posting here. Also, I'm kind of experimenting a little bit.

So, I only have one snake and I pay very close attention to him. My assessment that he's ready to eat is based on his behavior patterns through the week. Usually the first few days (depending on meal size) are pretty much down time. He sleeps, gets up to drink water, and then goes back to sleep. Then he has this huge-mongous pee and suddenly he looks like he never ate. I imagine his body flushes alot of the excess fluid from the meeses first. Then, he starts to perk up gradually over the next few days. Then there's this obvious point where he starts getting real active. He'll start spending time outside of his hide sort of gradually moving around his tank and then stopping to stare for a while. He looks kind of like somebody who's lost something but has a ferociously short attention span. He'll also start coming out of his hide when I'm by the cage wanting to get out. If I take him out and set him on the bed he won't hide in the bedding but instead just stare at the room from different angles for long periods of time. Seems like hunting to me.

I've been gradually increasing his meal size. I've always fed every 6 or 7 days and he's pretty bulged every meal. He's fattened up a bit but he's pretty much just getting to the point where he looks like all of the example pictures people have been posting in this thread. I think maybe he was a bit underweight before.

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Originally Posted by erobinson

To those who feed smaller prey items:

When you feed your bigger balls, Do you feed multiple small items in one sitting. Feed one small item twice a week (or more if needed). Or just one item a week period. And do you think the whole rat vs. mouse thing comes in to play with this type of feeding schedule.

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I feed once a week ... never any more. Sometimes bigger girls will get leftovers, but the plan every week is one rat per ball python. Mousers may get multiples depending on their size and sex. Gram for gram I feel that there is no difference in any way between feeding mice or rats.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Based on your limited experience with owning a ball python, what indicators makes you believe that he's clearly ready to eat by day 4? Are you sure you're interpreting his actions correctly as hunger motivated?

Sure, he ate when you offered the food, because it was there, and ball pythons are opportunistic feeders, until they've had too much - and then they fast to catch up. Their wild instinct makes them eat when food is offered, because in the wild, it may be weeks, even months before they get another prey item. In captivity, they get meals handed to them 52 times a year.

Once a week is not just convenient for "us". Once a week is recommended from the years of hard work and studies done by folks like the Barkers, Kevin and Kara, BHB, etc - folks who are truely students of ball pythons with years of data.

I don't see any need to re-invent the wheel and second guess them, they've been working with these animals much longer than I have - why would my individual ball pythons have any different requirements than the thousands that they've collectively worked with and studied?

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I'm not trying to overturn anything or trying to second guess anybody. I was just wondering if "once a week" was an eyeball figure that fit nicely into your average person's time budget. I've read 5-7 days and 7-10 days on other sites so I figured 7 days wasn't some sort of magic number. That's all.

If I come across like I'm second guessing or challenging things its only because I'm really into it and want to take everything a step above the norm. I make my living as an engineer that's expected to understand the state of the art and then to improve upon it in a competitive industry where "state of the art" was come to by a bunch of really experienced, talented people (like the Barkers, Kevin & Kara, etc that you mention). So, its in my blood. Its how I approach anything I do. I'm not trying to be a thorn in anybody's side - its just how I'm wired. :rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I feed once a week ... never any more. Sometimes bigger girls will get leftovers, but the plan every week is one rat per ball python. Mousers may get multiples depending on their size and sex. Gram for gram I feel that there is no difference in any way between feeding mice or rats.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Thanks for the response.
I just mentioned the mouse thing because I noticed that you could feed multiple mice with less showing of a bulge than with rats.

You think 10-15% of the bp's weight a week is a good feeding schedule?

Example: 500 gram ball is fed a 50 gram rat/mouse a week.