Omg!!!

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/pet/352127977.html

Look at how this person is keeping their snakes!!!! That is horrible!

Holy cow! Some people these days. That is just disturbing.

Most ads for snakes on craigslist aren't from the greatest keepers. ;) There's nothing we can do about these kinds of people except for just trying to educate them. Yelling and screaming our heads off at them won't ever solve anything. I feel so bad for the poor snakes :(

Yea i wasn't going to yell and scream at them, not my style, i just was so shocked that people think thats okay to keep any animal like that!

Jeez! Well atleast your blessed, and don't have a temper....unlike me :P I would've blown up on them in a heartbeat!

haha yea i totally understand getting angry at them it makes me angry too. Even someone whos not an expert could lookat that picture and know that its not the proper way to keep them. Theyre extremely overcrowded and the cage is filthy. i wrote them an email, they probably wont listen but at least i tried.

RAR! now im actually really mad! This is what i emailed himm;

Hi, i don't know if anyone has told you this but the way your keeping your snakes isn't the healthiest. They are probably stressed out and unhappy becuase theyre should only be one in each tank and they need hides and security. Anyways this is a great site to ask questions and educate yourself on properly caring for your ball pythons; http://ball-pythons.net/

and this is what he said back!

Give it up lady, I been raising and breeding snakes for 20 years + I know more about snakes then they know about themselves, Educate yourself.

wow i need to educate myself? Um i don't think so this guy is ridiculous :taz:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cassandra88

Give it up lady, I been raising and breeding snakes for 20 years + I know more about snakes then they know about themselves, Educate yourself.

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I've heard an idiot use that before. LOL. I wanted to blow up on him and he acted like he was the only person who knew how to care for a snake.

If he's been breeding snakes for 20+ years, he'd know much better. Simply put the guys a fool and one of those ill-educated "know-it-alls" like you find working at Petco and Petsmart...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cassandra88

RAR! now im actually really mad! This is what i emailed himm;

Hi, i don't know if anyone has told you this but the way your keeping your snakes isn't the healthiest. They are probably stressed out and unhappy becuase theyre should only be one in each tank and they need hides and security. Anyways this is a great site to ask questions and educate yourself on properly caring for your ball pythons; http://ball-pythons.net/

and this is what he said back!

Give it up lady, I been raising and breeding snakes for 20 years + I know more about snakes then they know about themselves, Educate yourself.

wow i need to educate myself? Um i don't think so this guy is ridiculous :taz:

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This is how i replied. (okay i exagerated a little i only have one snake, but whatever)

Wow really 20 years? and you still don't know any better. I also keep snakes and mine are very happy and healthy, and they all have their own enclosures. It's upsetting that your advertising those pics, and people are going to purchase from you and think thats the way to properly house them. But whatever works for you i geuss

how many snakes are in there??? good thing he knows what he's doing....

Thats sick!!

I actually saw this same thing in the ball python enclosure at a local store. Of course I could blatantly tell that some of them had an RI because some of their mouths were open and could just tell something was wrong (when some of there mouths were closed it still looked a little ajar). Ball pythons are the only snake I have seen them do this with though. All the other enclosures usually have 2 tops in each enclosure. Of course they have a $1,500 female spider in its own enclosure without a hide. A lot of the snakes there actually have their own enclosure they just always seem overstocked with ball pythons.

edit: the guy I talk to in the store doesnt know much about ball pythons other than that they are shy. He really doesnt know much about how to take care of them from talking to him. He basically takes care of them like he would a boa (he used to breed boas).

Disclaimer: Just for debating please!!

Whats the difference with this guy and the vendors at reptile shows that have huge tanks full of "feeders" and "non feeders" all squished, stressed out, and still selling? why dont we say anything to those people?? I gotta say, that there are two sides to every story.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that rats and mice do like company. I do think that putting too many in the same enclosure can stress them out eventually. It's just a matter of how many you keep together in what size enclosure.

I don't think I would buy from someone like that, and I very well might say something to them.
The good vendors I've seen at shows have snakes in individual little box thingies. I can't say I've actually seen anyone with a tank full like in the pictures linked here. Not even my local pet stores.

Not that I'm in the "omg I'm so shocked" camp. I'm definitely not shocked, people will do many things in the name of greed, and this is far from the worst I've seen in the animal "industry".

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Originally Posted by bpkid

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that rats and mice do like company. I do think that putting too many in the same enclosure can stress them out eventually. It's just a matter of how many you keep together in what size enclosure.

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"feeders" and "non feeders" as in the baby snakes that have eaten their first meal and those that haven't. Not talking about any rodents here.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Disclaimer: Just for debating please!!

Whats the difference with this guy and the vendors at reptile shows that have huge tanks full of "feeders" and "non feeders" all squished, stressed out, and still selling? why dont we say anything to those people?? I gotta say, that there are two sides to every story.

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do you mean feeders as in a snake/rep thats feeding as opposed to a snake thats not feeding(stressed out gone off feed) or are you refering to prey animals (mice ect.)
Nevermind posted too late lol

well thats not exactly right but i figure they do it just for practicality its easier to have 20 tanks for 50 snakes rather than 50 tanks for 50 snakes. not saying its right but i like to think that once the snakes are back home (the ones that didnt sell that is) that they all have there own tanks and setups and are happy.

as for that guy on craigs list he has no idea what hes doing and he just in it for the money to make a quick buck. and not for the well being or love of the snakes and the hobby. in my opinion he should not be allowed to breed snakes ever again. but as for the expos i have yet to see a poorly cared for snake thay all look healthy and not skinny that tells me they are cared for and not stressed when they are home.

There is no difference between the two. Someone is going to buy some from that craigslist guy and someone is going to buy from that guy at the show. Anyone who is educated will buy from a good breeder and anyone who isn't will buy from people like that... unless it is an educated person that wants to take in a sick animal. Anyone who sells a non feeding animal has no business selling that animal at all.

you talking about some one at the Taylor MI reptile show?

i saw someone selling ball's like that, two 10 gal tanks with about 15-20 snakes in them each. one had hatchlings that have eaten and the other of hatchlings that have never ate. usually $20 for feeders and $10 for non feeders.

i definitely passed that guy by...

still just for debate...Your 50+ baby ball pythons just hatched, and more are coming. 25 ate, and 25 didnt. This is part time, you've got to make it to the next show. Are you really going to take time with every non feeding baby to make sure it gets a meal in its belly. Or just tag him, and sell him off cheap?
I think the sensible thing would be to sell them cheaper. Or you could spend 1/2 hr [to an hour with] each individual snake. Either way, they gotta get sold. Does that make your an irresponsible breeder?

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Originally Posted by Kagez28

you talking about some one at the Taylor MI reptile show?

i saw someone selling ball's like that, two 10 gal tanks with about 15-20 snakes in them each. one had hatchlings that have eaten and the other of hatchlings that have never ate. usually $20 for feeders and $10 for non feeders.

i definitely passed that guy by...

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yea, that was pretty sad to see. I def dont like to see animals suffer :(

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Your 50+ baby ball pythons just hatched, and more are coming. 25 ate, and 25 didnt. This is part time, you've got to make it to the next show. Are you really going to take time with every non feeding baby to make sure it gets a meal in its belly. Or just tag him, and sell him off cheap?
I think the sensible thing would be to sell them cheaper. Or you could spend 1/2 hr [to an hour with] each individual snake. Either way, they gotta get sold. Does that make your an irresponsible breeder?

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In a way yes. Take the 25 that have proven to you that they will eat. Selling them cheaper won't do anything but put some money in your pocket and give you 25 angry customers (if none of them eat, that is.) I don't know about you, but if I was a breeder, I would rather have the pride of selling good animals.

Cassandra you do have the option of reporting this person to Craigslist. Their TOS says that you cannot sell live animals, only adopt them out and ask for an adoption fee. You have an email there that clearly states this person is a long time "breeder" and is therefore just getting around their rules. I'd forward a copy of the emails (both yours and his) and your comments to the administrators at Craigslist.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I think the sensible thing would be to sell them cheaper. Or you could spend 1/2 hr [to an hour with] each individual snake. Either way, they gotta get sold. Does that make your an irresponsible breeder?

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I don't see anything wrong with selling non-feeders, as long as one is up front about it. Personally, I would make sure the buyer had my number and email address and offer any advice they needed to get the snake eating.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

still just for debate...Your 50+ baby ball pythons just hatched, and more are coming. 25 ate, and 25 didnt. This is part time, you've got to make it to the next show. Are you really going to take time with every non feeding baby to make sure it gets a meal in its belly. Or just tag him, and sell him off cheap?
I think the sensible thing would be to sell them cheaper. Or you could spend 1/2 hr [to an hour with] each individual snake. Either way, they gotta get sold. Does that make your an irresponsible breeder?

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Yes for me you are an irresponsible breeder if you are selling off non-feeding babies to someone that has little to no experience with snakes. If you can't commit to the wellbeing of each snake you hatch, you shouldn't be breeding yet more of them. I can see non-feeders going from a breeder to someone he/she knows is very experienced in starting snakes...but to just anyone with a few bucks in their pocket and with no assurance the snake has even a chance. Nope sorry, that's not a "breeder" I would ever do business with.

What a hideous way to house the poor snakes. This person claims to be an expert? They don't know jack. How sad, again.

From his IP addy when he replied to me, I know his address and phone number. Would it be inappropriate to send the Humane society out there? Granted they are not the friendliest toward snakes, but the last time I had an issue like this, they actually cared.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

From his IP addy when he replied to me, I know his address and phone number. Would it be inappropriate to send the Humane society out there? Granted they are not the friendliest toward snakes, but the last time I had an issue like this, they actually cared.

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i'd definitely go for it! and maybe give the h.s. a little background on bp's just in case they aren't familiar with the fact that they should be kept singly... not by the dozens..... but, yeah, i'd def. try to get authorities involved!

Now, I'm sure some of you probably think I have no business adding my :2cent: to this, seeing that i house two adult males together.....
But, I whole heartedly agree that what that butthead is doing is horribly wrong.
Seeing all those little guys like that just breaks my heart. :(

Everyone's opinion is welcome. Don't think like that :) I'm sure no one will be hostile towards you or unnaccepting. If they do I'm sure the Mods and Admins will do something about it, they are nice and will help you.

:( OMG thats terrible, i'd flag him. there has to be atleast 20 or so in there. What a sorry excuse for a snake keeper.......

Personally I understand where everyone is coming from...but in his defense not everyone has the funds...He probably just ended up having a ton of babies and not having the money to house them all separately hence why he is trying to sell them. True it would be nice if he had gotten his stuff together, but the reality of it is not everyone has the money...

And before anyone says don't breed unless you have the money to properly satisfy them...then maybe you should preach to the world about having human babies and not being able to afford them...

Sorry if it is a little blunt, but the real world with snake keeping isnt exactly how it's supposed to be... once upon a time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

And before anyone says don't breed unless you have the money to properly satisfy them...then maybe you should preach to the world about having human babies and not being able to afford them...

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As a volunteer advocate and lobbyist for Planned Parenthood, this is exactly what I do. I don't support the current welfare system, I don't think people should pop out kids and sit home and collect my tax dollars to raise them, and I don't think people should be hatching out snakes without a way to take proper care of them. Is that such a bad stance to have?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SarahMB

As a volunteer advocate and lobbyist for Planned Parenthood, this is exactly what I do. I don't support the current welfare system, I don't think people should pop out kids and sit home and collect my tax dollars to raise them, and I don't think people should be hatching out snakes without a way to take proper care of them. Is that such a bad stance to have?

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nope that is exactly my point...I for one will treat my snakes with the care they need and deserve not matter what the cost...but not everyone sees things the same way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

nope that is exactly my point...I for one will treat my snakes with the care they need and deserve not matter what the cost...but not everyone sees things the same way.

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Guess that guy shouldnt have snake's then.... I agree with Sarah, watching people use and abuse the welfare system is just ridiculous. They figure they can just keep having kids and get everything taken care of. Same with snake owner's, you shouldnt care for snakes if you dont have the proper means of housing/taking care of them.

Without defending him for his husbandry, I would be willing to bet that those snakes are CH imports, as are the ones you see at the expos caged that way and labeled as feeders/non-feeders. Most breeders I know wouldn't sell a baby they hatched before it had at least 1 meal, preferrably more than one, and certainly wouldn't pile them into a single cage for display. However, at the expo I attended today, there were several breeders that had high end morphs caged 2 or 3 to a cage for display. I saw one in particular that had an ivory, a bumblebee, and a couple others in it. It was a large display cage, and I am certain that he doesn't house them that way permanently.

Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Cassandra you do have the option of reporting this person to Craigslist. Their TOS says that you cannot sell live animals, only adopt them out and ask for an adoption fee. You have an email there that clearly states this person is a long time "breeder" and is therefore just getting around their rules. I'd forward a copy of the emails (both yours and his) and your comments to the administrators at Craigslist.

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Yea i think that im going to do that

sigh, just another example of ball pythons getting the short end of the stick....people think since they are a cheap snake you can house them cheaply. :(

The big herp shop here houses all their snakes separate, even the baby ball pythons. Some people just think that its just a BP, it doesnt need anything special.

o man im p-o'd
i sent him an e-mail 2 i couldnt help it

im so mad i just want to slap him/her :mad:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

still just for debate...Your 50+ baby ball pythons just hatched, and more are coming. 25 ate, and 25 didnt. This is part time, you've got to make it to the next show. Are you really going to take time with every non feeding baby to make sure it gets a meal in its belly. Or just tag him, and sell him off cheap?
I think the sensible thing would be to sell them cheaper. Or you could spend 1/2 hr [to an hour with] each individual snake. Either way, they gotta get sold. Does that make your an irresponsible breeder?

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yes it does.

being a breeder isn't just about putting two snakes together and hatching out some babies... and then selling them to the first person with a pocket full of cash.

being a breeder is more than that... and if you aren't up for the job... then you shouldn't do it. period.

we hand raise any babies our birds (cockatiels, parrotlets, budgies) hatch. we care about them. we get them fully weaned, feeding on seeds and fully feathered out before we sell them.

and we don't even consider ourselves breeders as it's simply a hobby for us.

when we begin to breed snakes, we'll take the same time and care with them... cause this is a life we are choosing to bring into the world. therefore, we need to take responsibility for that life!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

Personally I understand where everyone is coming from...but in his defense not everyone has the funds...He probably just ended up having a ton of babies and not having the money to house them all separately hence why he is trying to sell them. True it would be nice if he had gotten his stuff together, but the reality of it is not everyone has the money...

And before anyone says don't breed unless you have the money to properly satisfy them...then maybe you should preach to the world about having human babies and not being able to afford them...

Sorry if it is a little blunt, but the real world with snake keeping isnt exactly how it's supposed to be... once upon a time.

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I'll say it pup....He shouldn't be breeding snakes unless he has the proper funds to care for the animals. Humans breeding is somewhat hard to stop...darn near impossible.
Snakes breeding in captivity is on a different level. Simply put, he doesn't have to house them together or pair them. If he cannot stop himself from putting two snakes together and breeding them, then he shouldn't have the animals. Someone who breeds, yet doesn't have the funds to properly house their hatchlings produced, nor parents, shouldn't really be calling themselves a breeder....

I hope that made some sense lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AndrewH

Someone who breeds, yet doesn't have the funds to properly house their hatchlings produced, nor parents, shouldn't

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... be breeding to begin with! period.

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

... be breeding to begin with! period.

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:rockon:

I have seen the same sort of thing on Houston Craigslist... I am assuming it is a breeder/flipper selling '07 CH babies and just slapping an "adoption fee" on them so that they can post on Craigslist.

I would like to know what the BIG breeders think on the subject.
debate
It's all and well for the hobbiests to say "we love them ALL, and we care for, and cherish every life we bring into the world!" But it almost sounds like, if you separate your emotions and dont look at snakes individually, then you shouldnt breed because all you see is cash. Which may not be.

Whats wrong with seeing the snakes as an awesome project? coming up with some KILLER morphs! See the market take a jump with the new double het or recessive morph that just hatched? Being one of the first people to have it? And have a great potential to make some good money?
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That's where I think these people quit seeing each snake as a "life to be cherished" and start seeing some major mula in the future. Which I still have to respect, as long as I don't have to see them on Animal Police [i think that's what its called]

In a way, every big breeder is actually a hobbyist. Of course they make money, which is a perk. But if they were to sell animals that are not eating, then it shows their true colors. You have to remember that these are live animals and they can't just have the bare minimum, you need to make them thrive, so you will have happy customers. Some snake breeders (not going to name them ;) ) just ran themselves out of business. They were too worried about making "moolah" and less worried about the snakes. They wanted to earn a million dollars in a day or whatever. Eventually, people started to hate them with a passion. They were worried about quanitity, not quality and look what happened to them. EVERY breeder has a special responsibility to keep their snakes happy and keep them in the best conditions they can create. Like I said before, if the snakes are not happy, your customers won't be happy either. Having an angry customer and a tarnished reputation is not something anyone wants to deal with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I would like to know what the BIG breeders think on the subject.
debate
It's all and well for the hobbiests to say "we love them ALL, and we care for, and cherish every life we bring into the world!" But it almost sounds like, if you separate your emotions and dont look at snakes individually, then you shouldnt breed because all you see is cash. Which may not be.

Whats wrong with seeing the snakes as an awesome project? coming up with some KILLER morphs! See the market take a jump with the new double het or recessive morph that just hatched? Being one of the first people to have it? And have a great potential to make some good money?
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That's where I think these people quit seeing each snake as a "life to be cherished" and start seeing some major mula in the future. Which I still have to respect, as long as I don't have to see them on Animal Police [i think that's what its called]

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i think you have it all wrong. all wrong.

the bigger breeders out there... who are successful... ARE successful because they DO consider each snake as a "life to be cherished" and they care for every snake in their collection and for sale the same... whether it's a high end morph or simply a normal... it doesn't matter to them...

try emailing kara or adam... and they'll both tell you the same! i guarantee it!!!

i've been searching for a pic of adam's set up... but i can't seem to find the pic. i know he posted it... anyone else remember which thread it was in? where he shows the racks and racks of snakes... each one to an enclosure?

and... if nothing else...

what does adam's banner say?

Quality

Passion

Service

I think that says it all.