teaching bps

is it possible to like pat on the ground and have your bp come to you?
ever heard of that?
if so how would I go about teaching sgt pepper that?

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Originally Posted by Mogley837

is it possible to like pat on the ground and have your bp come to you?
ever heard of that?
if so how would I go about teaching sgt pepper that?

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Balls despite what some might think don't like human contact. So a positive reinforcement training would be useless. So I'll say no.

sgt pepper loves human contact though I scratch his belly and he seems to like it and when I scratch his neck too
hes never bitten anyone even when shedding and I can feed him from my hands
I just hold the rat by his tail and he goes right for it

Sorry to say dear but your snake really isn't capable of "loving human contact". By all standards, snakes can be handled in ways that they learn to accept it without too much stress but they simply are not the sorts of creatures that by their nature need contact even with their own species (other than to breed of course).

Also feeding from your hand is a bad habit to get into. The heat signature coming off your hand will at some point confuse your snake and you will get bit - it's just a matter of time. A feeding bite is a serious one, not a slight tap, but the strike of a predator and it should be respected for what it is. Your response most likely would be to jerk back from the bite which can injure your snake's mouth as well as make the bite worse on you.

When you scratch your snake's belly it will naturally undulate. This isn't a function of the snake "enjoying" that, it is the scutes (belly scales) reacting to stimulus. This is a perfectly normal reaction and something that all snakes do.

This doesn't mean you shouldn't love your snake or enjoy it but just a a bit of a gentle caution about realizing what a snake is and isn't capable of being. It is perfect in itself but it isn't like other pets like a cat or dog.

Emotion has no use in the animal kingdom. Kevin McCurley :D

I think emotion in us as keepers is a wonderful thing. It keeps us striving to do right by our snakes because we truly love and respect them. Confusing our human emotions with their natural instincts or abilities though can lead to problems or misunderstandings.

Kev's got it right! Hardly a workable system if the snake had emotions and some sort of moral issues with eating a live rat. LOL

Mogley, sorry I did mean to answer your original question about patting the ground, etc. Snakes hear by vibrations which they pick up through their bellies and their lower jaws. They have no external ears so it's unknown what, if any sounds they hear in the way we humans do. Patting the ground causing a vibration is most likely to trigger your snake into an S aka strike position. The snake will either do this defensively if it perceives that vibration as an approaching predator or aggressively if it perceives that vibration as the approach of a possible prey animal. It might also choose to react by balling up tightly to protect it's head or in slithering off quickly to seek cover.

Either way it's not going to come when it's "called". :)

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

I think emotion in us as keepers is a wonderful thing. It keeps us striving to do right by our snakes because we truly love and respect them. Confusing our human emotions with their natural instincts or abilities though can lead to problems or misunderstandings.

Kev's got it right! Hardly a workable system if the snake had emotions and some sort of moral issues with eating a live rat. LOL

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Anthropomorphism is how we as humans associate with the world around us. The idea of a creature without the ability to express its wants and needs is alien to us and as such we cope with this by transmitting our ingrain behaviors on those things without them in order to better identify with that thing.

In short you ball tolerates your handling and lacks the higher brain function to make the decisions needed to be trained. However it is a novel concept and if I could I teach each of mine to form a different letter of the alphabet so I could write messages in pythons :D

they are wild animals, which act as wild animals should although balls are so docile people mistake it for affection

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Anthropomorphism is how we as humans associate with the world around us. The idea of a creature without the ability to express its wants and needs is alien to us and as such we cope with this by transmitting our ingrain behaviors on those things without them in order to better identify with that thing.

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Totally agree. The problem becomes when we humans forget to set limits on this type of behaviour and you see things like "my snake loves to go for car rides", "my snake loves me so I keep it with me all day long", "my snake enjoys going to the pet store with me", "my snake bit me so I know it hates me", etc.

To train an animal you need something to reward it with that it wants. Unfortunately snakes generally want privacy and warmth. If every time your snake came to you, you flipped on a heat bulb(your body warmth is not all that much warmth as far as a reward) then eventually(maybe YEARS) you MIGHT get a response that could be called a "learned response". It would take so long because of more than one factor.
1. Snakes do not have any willingness to please. Dogs have this, and it makes them easier to train.
2. Snake do not generally have a reward to strive for. A food treat, or heat or privacy are all difficult to offer a snake.
3. Snakes have a low metabolism, and lower intelligence, without much need for problem solving in their lives. These combined make them disinclined to strive for any reward.
These and other factors make it highly unlikely that you can train your ball python. It MIGHT go towards a light vibration as a instinctive searching for prey reaction. But that would strictly be a 'hit or miss' thing, according to whether or not the snake felt hungry, nervous, or energetic at that time.
Ball pythons are pretty much a sit and wait type animal. Makes it nigh impossible to train them.
Wolfy

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Anthropomorphism is how we as humans associate with the world around us. The idea of a creature without the ability to express its wants and needs is alien to us and as such we cope with this by transmitting our ingrain behaviors on those things without them in order to better identify with that thing.

In short you ball tolerates your handling and lacks the higher brain function to make the decisions needed to be trained. However it is a novel concept and if I could I teach each of mine to form a different letter of the alphabet so I could write messages in pythons :D

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People are also completely full of themselves and tend to assume that anything they can't communicate with is stupid. Personally, I believe all of the "they are animals so they lack the ability to [INSERT HUMAN BEHAVIOR HERE]." is bogus. We are all built on the same stuff. In fact, our brains have what's called the "reptilian brain" and on top of that is a layer of top-notch reasoning ability. This is why we're just never ...quite... civilized. We are not something new, we are animals with the best hardware around.

There is a gorilla than can understand spoken english and, very coherently, carry on a conversation using sign language to reply.

That being said, I have to agree that training the python is a far bet. On the other hand, I disagree that saying a snake "naturally undulates" when its belly is scratched is grounds for saying it doesn't like it. In fact, saything that it doesn't like it is completely contrary to the whole anthropomorhism argument.

I mean what if I was to squeeze a BP's tail with a pair of pliers causing (I assume) some violent reaction? Would you be prepared to say that I'm anthropomorphising when I say that it looks like he doesn't like it? I don't think so.

So, yes, snakes aren't all that smart and, yes, they generally want to hide away and play it safe. But, I don't think its right to crap all over this person's enjoyment and bonding with his pet. I don't think its right and I don't think its necessarily accurate either.

Actually, I know a guy who trained snakes to come when called.

Now, before you call bs...

He was a co-worker who had previously worked at an aquarium that kept 5 watersnakes (one of the North American species, but I don't know which) in a large naturalistic enclosure. He always blew a whistle before feeding, and always fed at the same time. Eventually, the snakes would hear the whistle and recognize that as a signal that prey were available. He described seeing five heads emerging from the ground cover as the snakes responded to the sound. Somewhere he has a paper published on it...sorry, I can't remember the name or location.

Whether this would work on balls, I cannot say. I do know that mine are very aware of when feeding time is, and could perhaps be taught to associate a sound (or vibration) cue with feeding time...it wouldn't be coming when called as understand it when I say my dog comes when he's called though.

Let the snake be a snake,it is incable of learning tricks like a dog, cat or rat if you want somthing that can do tricks or learn to do them by one of those type animals.Ohterwise just enjoy your snake for what it is.

When I'm lying on the bed and my BP goes down by my feet, about half of the time if I tap his back side he will turn around and come back.

He spends alot of time watching me from his hide, his tank faces my side of the bed. Many times when I'm holding him, he will rest his head on my hand and stare at me. Many times when I go to bed if he is out of his hide and sees me, he will go the the front of the tank and stare at me and go up to the top trying to get out.

If he doesn't want human contact what does he want?? Food?? I'm sure he must associate me with food.

Anyone know a good snake psychologist (or maybe a human one!!)??

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Originally Posted by bearhart

That being said, I have to agree that training the python is a far bet. On the other hand, I disagree that saying a snake "naturally undulates" when its belly is scratched is grounds for saying it doesn't like it. In fact, saying that it doesn't like it is completely contrary to the whole anthropomorphism argument.

I mean what if I was to squeeze a BP's tail with a pair of pliers causing (I assume) some violent reaction? Would you be prepared to say that I'm anthropomorphising when I say that it looks like he doesn't like it? I don't think so.

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Your right to say that a snake undulating when its belly is touched is because it doesn't like it is again applying human traits to an animal that lacks this trait. It would be more accurate to say that physical contact on a vulnerable area of this animal induces a response of withdrawal from said contact in an attempt to lessen the risk of injury to the animal. On some level there are some reactions that we as humans associate with emotion "fear" is classified as an emotion in the human world. However fear is not what I would consider and emotion like love, envy, hate and so on. Fear is your primitive brain telling your body to change your location or physical association with something because your body is in danger or rick of getting injured. Because of our higher brain functions we can learn to suppress this reaction. But you take an animal that has been handled for years and is puppy dog safe and tap is head and it will recoil or you snatch up it hide with no warning and you might get bit. Snakes lack the higher brain functions to suppress the fight or flight response.

And about squeezing it tail. Inducing a response based on pain or any other injury doesn't mean it doesn't like it you have produced a response based pain not an emotional choice.

For us to say our snakes like something would mean giving them the choice of non-life-sustaining choices. This would eliminate warm versus cold places, prey items (imprint feeders) and so on. It would mean they prefer people with brown hair, or that ware red shirts. To like something to me means that the animals if given the options of non life sustaining choices it would choose the same every time.

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So, yes, snakes aren't all that smart and, yes, they generally want to hide away and play it safe. But, I don't think its right to crap all over this person's enjoyment and bonding with his pet. I don't think its right and I don't think its necessarily accurate either.

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No one is crapping on their enjoyment. We just want them to understand that the type of responses you get out of dogs and cats can't be applied to reptiles.

I see them as pure, living instinct. If they react violently or defensively, it's for their own protection. If they seem to be content, then obviously their needs are being met to satisfaction. Their needs are simple, food and water, suitable shelter, sense of security, the drive to reproduce. Why would a snake in captivity seek anything it doesn't in nature? Snakes don't have family structures. They reproduce and go on with their lives without the need for social interaction. Dogs form packs and have social hierarchies; clearly they seek this same structure in captivity. It's a very human characteristic, wanting our feelings to imprint on animals, and I think when these arguments come up, people get defensive because they feel that this is seen as a negative quality about their pet. It's not negative, it's just different. It's something we will never fully understand because we are people, not snakes. But I respect this instinctual aspect in reptiles, and I think that's the beauty of them.

my bp's like to poo in their tubs!!!

While I think snakes are generally smarter than most people think, most are not trainable in the sense of a dog or other mammal. I do believe they can be condition trained. That's quite evident. They get conditioned to handling and feeding schedules.

That's not to say that no snake could ever be trained do a "trick". I have heard some interesting stories about Indigo snakes.

But even in these cases I do not believe any snake is capable of what you'd call a real emotion such as love.

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So, yes, snakes aren't all that smart and, yes, they generally want to hide away and play it safe. But, I don't think its right to crap all over this person's enjoyment and bonding with his pet. I don't think its right and I don't think its necessarily accurate either.

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Where did you get we were "crapping all over" anyone? I'm extremely bonded to our snake collection and enjoy them thoroughly but I do so understanding that it's mostly a one sided experience. For me, personally, I don't use my own human emotions to judge a snake's response or read anything in to it based on my human standards.

I don't see that my standards are anything that important really. I'm human, they are snakes. They are perfectly designed to be what they are so I don't see the need for me to hold them to any standard that would be totally foreign to their experience. I just respect that they are what they are and leave it at that.

Sort of like the feeding deal. People get very emotional about live feeding. I never have. Not that I don't care very much for the wellbeing of the rats I raise to be fed off but I don't intrude my feelings into their predator/prey dynamic. I see it I guess as having no place there at least to my mind. I'm just a part of it, not really all that important a part really. As long as the rats are well raised and the snake well able to handle the living prey item....well I'm just the chick that moves part A into the vicinity of part B and let's nature take it's course. :)

I strive to make sure the snakes are well cared for as well as their prey, I completely enjoy the gift of handling and the sense of accomplishment when everyone's eating and shedding and poop and the rats are popping out future feeders in a healthy manner. Those are my emotions and there they remain. I'm sure the rats and the snakes are quite fine with that. :)

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Originally Posted by bearhart

In fact, our brains have what's called the "reptilian brain" and on top of that is a layer of top-notch reasoning ability.

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I don't know where you are getting your medical information, but the "reptilian brain" is the term that refers to the area of our brains that include the Cerebellum, Medula, Midbrain, Pons, and Brain Stem. This is the area of the brain which controls involuntary body processes and reaction to stimulus.

The area of higher-order reason that you are talking about is contained in the frontal lobes of our brain - reptiles lack this area of the brain and the subsequent reasoning and logic skills that it provides.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I don't know where you are getting your medical information, but the "reptilian brain" is the term that refers to the area of our brains that include the Cerebellum, Medula, Midbrain, Pons, and Brain Stem. This is the area of the brain which controls involuntary body processes and reaction to stimulus.

The area of higher-order reason that you are talking about is contained in the frontal lobes of our brain - reptiles lack this area of the brain and the subsequent reasoning and logic skills that it provides.

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Hence a snakes response's are based on ingrain self preservation not emotional decision.

I think that the snake trains its keeper more than the keeper trains the snake. If you do something that elicits a response you like, you are likely to repeat it and hope for the same results next time. The snake will respond on the basis of self-preservation, as was discussed in this thread.
The key is to make sure that if you are trying to influence your snake's behavior, you don't overstress your snake or jeopardize it's health.

In my case, when I want to see my BP to check on him during the day, I will open up the door to his cage and speak to him for a few seconds. He sticks his head out of his hide to investigate the vibrations. I know that he isn't seeking out my company, merely keeping tabs on his environment. However, I enjoy the interaction :) However, I don't do it more than once a day, and I don't make moves that elicit a fear response (like trying to 'pet' him when he pokes his head out) and I feel that in that way I am respecting his nature and not stressing him.

I choose to handle him when appropriate, but I realize that it is for my enjoyment - not his. I try to respect his needs by limiting handling time and especially by putting him back as soon as he begins to get agitated, even if that is sooner than I would like.

Anyway, I think what people are trying to get across is that projecting emotions onto a snake can be enjoyable but also can be harmful if interpreted inappropriately. For example, a BP when handled who is rapidly roaming could be interpreted by someone as being happy and excited by being out and wanting to explore like an excited child. However, someone who is careful to consider the snake's nature first and foremost will take this as a sign of stress and react appropriately by ending the handling session. So, be careful to base your interpretation of you snake's behavior/reactions on the snake's nature and not human nature. As long as you respect that, you will have a wonderful and healthy relationship for many many years to come :)

I say, if you tap and the snake comes closer and isn't adopting a strike pose, then that's great :) go ahead and enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by fishmommy

I think that the snake trains its keeper more than the keeper trains the snake.

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Great point!!

So first of all I'd like to say that I wasn't implying that anybody here in particular is full of themselves. I was referring to the tendency of the human race as a whole to differentiate themselves so cleanly from all other creatures on this planet (among a host of other questionable behaviors that we all live and struggle with). I'm not sure why people feel the need to start slinging negative feedbacks around simply because they thought that perhaps I might be implying that somebody else was conceited.

This board seems to pride itself on being a state-of-the-art, quality resource on ball-python knowledge. So, why it tolerates such cliquish behavior is beyond me. I was simply defending somebody's unique views on their pet as well as BP's in general.

Perhaps nobody was intentionally "crapping" on this person, but I've seen this kind of thread before and I can tell you its quite depressing. I don't think anybody here has a basis to tell somebody that their snake doesn't enjoy being handled, etc. I don't think comments like "why don't you get a dog or cat" are very constructive. I think perhaps training the snake to come is a long shot but as long as there isn't any abuse going on who cares? I'm not going to say its impossible. I don't know, it just seems that for a group of people so in love with a particular animal, there are alot of posts that really minimize what its capable of instead of the other way around. Aside from making sure they are being well taken care of, shouldn't we be here to celebrate the ball-python?

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Originally Posted by fishmommy

I think that the snake trains its keeper more than the keeper trains the snake. If you do something that elicits a response you like, you are likely to repeat it and hope for the same results next time. The snake will respond on the basis of self-preservation, as was discussed in this thread.
The key is to make sure that if you are trying to influence your snake's behavior, you don't overstress your snake or jeopardize it's health.

In my case, when I want to see my BP to check on him during the day, I will open up the door to his cage and speak to him for a few seconds. He sticks his head out of his hide to investigate the vibrations. I know that he isn't seeking out my company, merely keeping tabs on his environment. However, I enjoy the interaction :) However, I don't do it more than once a day, and I don't make moves that elicit a fear response (like trying to 'pet' him when he pokes his head out) and I feel that in that way I am respecting his nature and not stressing him.

I choose to handle him when appropriate, but I realize that it is for my enjoyment - not his. I try to respect his needs by limiting handling time and especially by putting him back as soon as he begins to get agitated, even if that is sooner than I would like.

Anyway, I think what people are trying to get across is that projecting emotions onto a snake can be enjoyable but also can be harmful if interpreted inappropriately. For example, a BP when handled who is rapidly roaming could be interpreted by someone as being happy and excited by being out and wanting to explore like an excited child. However, someone who is careful to consider the snake's nature first and foremost will take this as a sign of stress and react appropriately by ending the handling session. So, be careful to base your interpretation of you snake's behavior/reactions on the snake's nature and not human nature. As long as you respect that, you will have a wonderful and healthy relationship for many many years to come :)

I say, if you tap and the snake comes closer and isn't adopting a strike pose, then that's great :) go ahead and enjoy it.

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Agreed! I think this is a very realistic and well-put peice of advice.

And, if your snake comes to you when you tap it, I think that's AWESOME and I doubt there's much in the way of alternate interpretations there. Just don't start pressuring him to pick a college too soon. :D

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Originally Posted by bearhart

So first of all I'd like to say that I wasn't implying that anybody here in particular is full of themselves. I was referring to the tendency of the human race as a whole to differentiate themselves so cleanly from all other creatures on this planet (among a host of other questionable behaviors that we all live and struggle with). I'm not sure why people feel the need to start slinging negative feedbacks around simply because they thought that perhaps I might be implying that somebody else was conceited.

This board seems to pride itself on being a state-of-the-art, quality resource on ball-python knowledge. So, why it tolerates such cliquish behavior is beyond me. I was simply defending somebody's unique views on their pet as well as BP's in general.

Perhaps nobody was intentionally "crapping" on this person, but I've seen this kind of thread before and I can tell you its quite depressing. I don't think anybody here has a basis to tell somebody that their snake doesn't enjoy being handled, etc. I don't think comments like "why don't you get a dog or cat" are very constructive. I think perhaps training the snake to come is a long shot but as long as there isn't any abuse going on who cares? I'm not going to say its impossible. I don't know, it just seems that for a group of people so in love with a particular animal, there are alot of posts that really minimize what its capable of instead of the other way around. Aside from making sure they are being well taken care of, shouldn't we be here to celebrate the ball-python?

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I just don't understand why the people in defense of their ball pythons in these threads take descriptions of their natural behavior to be negative. There's nothing wrong with your snake not having the same feelings and emotions you do. I think that's the bigger problem.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to fishmommy again.


Excellent post! Very well put. :)

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Originally Posted by darkangel

I just don't understand why the people in defense of their ball pythons in these threads take descriptions of their natural behavior to be negative. There's nothing wrong with your snake not having the same feelings and emotions you do. I think that's the bigger problem.

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Well I think it goes something like this: You go to a store and get a new pet and instantly start falling in love with it (not flowers and such but whatever you want to call the attachment you get to a pet). You love it so much you want to explore everything about it so you go online to ball-pythons.net. You are very excited and have all sorts of hopes for your pet being a good buddy for many years to come and wonder about what sorts of neat quirky personality things you might discover, etc... You post a message and a bunch of people promptly tell you that your snake is incapable of appreciating you, merely tolerates your company, and so on. That experience was truly upsetting and a major bummer for me.

I just think people should tread more delicately here. I think that there are some real important issues here about people incorrectly projecting emotions onto their snake and, as a result, unwittingly abuse them. But, also, these are ultimately pets and so we should also be sensitive to that and strive to enhance that experience.

I feel that it's the truth. Your snake is not going to want to please you and love you... etc.
If you think that, and then later on it bites you as a feeding response, then you're going to really be disappointed and wonder why it happened. If you accept your reptile for what it is, and appriciate it for it's very gorgeous nature, then you'll shrug off that bite and smile at the great feeding response.
I think the OP is really into his new snake, and is impressed with it. That's great! I love my snakes too! I think the idea of training a snake is a neat one, just not something I expect to actually work.
No one should give negative feedback just because someone has a different opinion though. We all have our own opinions and they don't always mesh.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

This board seems to pride itself on being a state-of-the-art, quality resource on ball-python knowledge. So, why it tolerates such cliquish behavior is beyond me. I was simply defending somebody's unique views on their pet as well as BP's in general.

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:confused: You speak of "this board" as if it has a personality and will of its own. It doesn't. It's just a collective of individuals who work hard to freely offer as much information and help as they can to those who seek it. And each individual is going to go about that in their own way. Not all of it is agreeable. Not all of it will fit into anyone's idea of a "perfect society" that "behaves the way it should." Certainly not mine. There's LOTS of stuff that is said here that I don't particularly like or agree with. However, I respect everyone's right to say it. I can't decide who gets to say what based simply on what ~I~ like or don't like.

But...if I feel strongly enough about what someone has said...I can certainly voice my disagreement, either in a public post, a PM, or with a rep point....whichever I believe is most suited to the circumstances. There's nothing wrong with that.

You think most of the folks in this thread are being too militant about the fact that snake's don't feel and react to the world based on human emotions. I think you're wrong to try and tell everyone else what sort of information they should try and impart. But you still get to say it. ;) And I get to disagree.

My personal opinion....for anyone who feels THAT strongly about anthropomorphizing their pet snake that they are crushed by being told the snake doesn't "love" them or even "like" them...they NEED to hear it in order to bring them to a realm of realistic expectations about their new pet. Otherwise, they are likely in for an even deeper hurt and/or disappointment later on down the road when the snake inevitably acts utterly contrary to what they thought it should "feel."

So sure, there's a balance and its good to understand it. I just disagree with somebody telling somebody else that their snake doesn't "enjoy" their company. I think that the anthropomorphism argument is not applied rigorously or the basis of other regularly used terms such as "stressed" and "tolerates" would be brought into question as well. Nor do I fully agree with it. And, I think that in the very noble pursuit of making sure the snakes are well cared for, the whole pet aspect is overlooked.

So that's all. most of the later posts were much more realistic but some of the earlier ones were a bit off base, IMO. In my mind somebody was being treated somewhat poorly and I defended them. Did I try to destroy somebody's reputation on this board because of it? No. Even better, I did not give sombody a negative rep point based on the fact that I misunderstood what they meant and thought it might reflect poorly on somebody else (Who I'm guessing was fully capable of taking it up with me themself).

snakes can LEARN what is going to happen in certain situations, and pretty quick. My male who is only 8 months old is proof of this. Every time I feed him, I first take him out and handle him a little bit, put him on the scale, get his weight prior to feeding, then I put him back in his tank, he goes in his hide, then I drop the mouse in. I have been doing that for every feeding for the past too months and have noticed something interesting about him. when I take him out, handle him, he goes in his tank, goes completely in his hide, then right back out looking for the prey item. He has learned that after being handled it means its time to eat. I took him out again today to clean a mess he left me, and when I put him back in he went back in his hide and then right back out again looking for the prey. So they can learn and remember that if this happens, this happens, then I am going to get food. I actually feel bad when I dont have a mouse to offer him.

So saying snakes are dumb or lack intelligence is a bit harsh, but I do agree teaching him to come to you would be really tough and I would be more afraid of him biting me thinking I'm prey, but I wouldn't say it can't be done....have you all forgotten the guy that TRAINED GOLDFISH? who are said to be the dumbest of all animals and has a memory of about 5 sec?

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I don't know, it just seems that for a group of people so in love with a particular animal, there are alot of posts that really minimize what its capable of instead of the other way around. Aside from making sure they are being well taken care of, shouldn't we be here to celebrate the ball-python?

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First of all there are many people here with more than enough experience with this animal that they can and have said that training Ball python and emotion are out side its ability's as an animal. We are not minimizing what it is capable of we just know what its capable of and except that. I mean people aren't disappointed when their dog can't play the trumpet are they or that Apes can't be taught to play the violin these are simply outside their ability's as an animal. People do fall in love with their pets and just like children do have high expectations of them. However just like children we must except them for their ability's and love them for what they are.

Please understand that ever how attentive and curious and loving they may seem at the end of the day when all the lights are out and all the poop is cleaned. IT'S A SNAKE nothing more. Except that and what it is capable of and enjoy the beautiful creature for what it is a snake.

People (including me) that have had these wonderful animals for years and have had more than one have said they can't be trained. It's not a shot at the person trying to or wondering if they can. Its the answer to their question.

As is so often the case, statements can get misunderstood and details lost. This one is getting stale but I think I'll just reply to Freakie frog here.

I agree (and always have) that the training is a longshot and probably best not attempted lest the snake just seems to beg for it somehow. I was more offended by the other, more qualitative, comments. Or, to be more specific, I felt like somebody whom I believed to be a new member was unnecessarily having their parade rained on.

As a cat lover, I love to hear the occasional story of the cat that could use the toilet even though I'm lucky to get consistent litter box action. And, as a snake lover, I suppose I'll always be the same way: eager to hear about the guy who has a BP that comes to him when he taps him, even though I'm lucky if mine is nice enough to hang in my hand for a while without trying to get away.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I don't know where you are getting your medical information, but the "reptilian brain" is the term that refers to the area of our brains that include the Cerebellum, Medula, Midbrain, Pons, and Brain Stem. This is the area of the brain which controls involuntary body processes and reaction to stimulus.

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Your right to a certain extent. Be careful here.

These are the functions of the "human reptilian brain" sometimes called the R-complex. In comparative neuroscience, gross structural homology doesn't always imply functional homology. For example, the reptilian medial cortex is functionally equivalent to the mammalian hippocampus, so much so that it is often called the "reptilian hippocampus" even though reptiles lack a true limbic system.

"Ancient"/"Older"/"Primitive"/"Earilier Evolved" structures have often adopted new derived functions in modern reptiles. The "reptilian hippocampus" like the mammalian hipposcampus seems to be involved in spatial learning and memory storage.

Here's a quote to consider from a classic neuroscience text:

"Recent developments in comparative anatomy suggest that it is no longer reasonable to expect strict homologies between brain structures in animals occupying different branches of the phylogenetic tree. There is considerable evolution within each phylum, so that one can find sophisticated neural organizations as well as primitive ones in that phylum. For example, in addition to the well-described sharks with simple brains one can find sharks with well-developed and highly differentiated forebrains."

This thread seems to be a bit of a war between balancing anthropomorphism and anthropocentrism. When we ascribe human choices and higher order feelings to animals we are being anthropomorphic, when we underestimate the power of animal intelligence and abilities and think we are the most advanced or evolved or complex of all creatures then we are being anthropocentric. It easy to confuse these two similar sounding but very different meaning words. In fact, I made this very mistake very recently on this board myself.....

I think it important to carefully balance these two. We should be careful to ascribe human attributes to other creatures but we should also be careful to assume we are the only ones that can learn or do certain things. We should be careful to avoid underestimating animals' cognitive and emotional states and careful to assume we are so unique. The Jane Goodall Institute has shown that chimps have some propensity in creating their own melodies for example. Chimps have also been shown to have different cultures.

This study reported sometime ago on ScienceDaily seems particularly relevant to the discussion as far as reptiles go.

"Studies dating back to the 1950s interpreted snakes' clumsiness with mazes as a poor reflection on their intelligence. Holtzman's peers regard his work as groundbreaking because unlike a maze, his arena confronts snakes with a situation that they're likely to encounter in the natural world.

"Early attempts to study snake navigation were awry because the studies used mazes as testing arenas -- as though snakes might be expected to run through mazes in the same way rats run through mazes," Peter Kareiva, a professor of zoology at the University of Washington, wrote last summer in Integrative Biology, of which he is editor-in-chief. "Of course, snakes do not encounter anything resembling mazes in nature, and they do not learn how to run mazes in laboratory conditions.

"The bottom line is that when tested in a biologically meaningful way, snakes exhibit spatial learning that rivals the learning abilities of birds and rodents," he concluded, "but the cues used by snakes [need] to match their ecology."

Apparently Snakes do have the ability to learn spatially.

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Originally Posted by sw204me

snakes can LEARN what is going to happen in certain situations, and pretty quick. My male who is only 8 months old is proof of this. Every time I feed him, I first take him out and handle him a little bit, put him on the scale, get his weight prior to feeding, then I put him back in his tank, he goes in his hide, then I drop the mouse in. I have been doing that for every feeding for the past too months and have noticed something interesting about him. when I take him out, handle him, he goes in his tank, goes completely in his hide, then right back out looking for the prey item. He has learned that after being handled it means its time to eat. I took him out again today to clean a mess he left me, and when I put him back in he went back in his hide and then right back out again looking for the prey. So they can learn and remember that if this happens, this happens, then I am going to get food. I actually feel bad when I dont have a mouse to offer him.

So saying snakes are dumb or lack intelligence is a bit harsh, but I do agree teaching him to come to you would be really tough and I would be more afraid of him biting me thinking I'm prey, but I wouldn't say it can't be done....have you all forgotten the guy that TRAINED GOLDFISH? who are said to be the dumbest of all animals and has a memory of about 5 sec?

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i agree here. when i remove all the things in my snake's cage for feeding, her behavior changes dramatically. she begins to look for a rat, and then snatches it usually in 5 seconds or less. she is aware that feeding time means that everything is missing. when everything is back in the tank, she knows that there will be no more food and that there is no need to hunt anymore.

i don't know about "training" so much as maybe learned habit(s). i find when i try to take pictures of my snake, it's very hard because she always goes right towards the camera. but whenever i have her out otherwise, she just goes where she wants (under supervision obviously). i'd say training a snake is a little far fetched, but i'd definately agree with them learning and catching on to certain situations quickly.

My ball pythons are potty trained. They go in their tubs each and everytime! I trained them well ;) No more puppy piddle pads for them! They've graduated!

Yes.. I'm silly..

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mendel's Balls again.

:colbert2:

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

My ball pythons are potty trained. They go in their tubs each and everytime! I trained them well ;) No more puppy piddle pads for them! They've graduated!

Yes.. I'm silly..

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LOL. Yep, I've trained many of my snakes to hide and ball up on command. I'm especially proud of the ones I've trained to 'attack!', although they only seem to attack my hand.

Of course I've trained all of them to 'lay down'. :P

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Originally Posted by xdeus

LOL. Yep, I've trained many of my snakes to hide and ball up on command. I'm especially proud of the ones I've trained to 'attack!', although they only seem to attack my hand.

Of course I've trained all of them to 'lay down'. :P

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LOL Mine are trained to keep the wife out of the office. :D

I think the info Mendel gave is great and the more we can understand about these animals the better we can provide for them.

Mendel's Balls, that is just an awesome post! I think you managed to express a bit of everybody's feelings. Is that a group hug I feel coming on??? :D

I'm very impressed with your knowledge in the area. This particular subject is one of the Big Questions I like to ponder. I strongly believe people are very anthropocentric and we're in something of a renaissance with regards to understanding animals. And, of course, people are truly unique on this planet.

I'm also absolutely convinced my BP knows who I am and is, in some snakey way, attached to me. And, its not because I'm some emotional retard that needs to believe he has more than one friend in this world (I've got a cat too... :P). There are simply too many behaviors I see that simply do not fit into the basic survival pattern. The differences between WC and CB pythons provide a good basis to suggest that snakes domesticate to some extent.

So do you have any ideas on how the average BP owner might take advantage of this knowledge? I mean, I guess the real challenge is figuring out exactly what really is going on inside those cute little scaly heads, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Christina

i agree here. when i remove all the things in my snake's cage for feeding, her behavior changes dramatically. she begins to look for a rat, and then snatches it usually in 5 seconds or less. she is aware that feeding time means that everything is missing. when everything is back in the tank, she knows that there will be no more food and that there is no need to hunt anymore.

i don't know about "training" so much as maybe learned habit(s). i find when i try to take pictures of my snake, it's very hard because she always goes right towards the camera. but whenever i have her out otherwise, she just goes where she wants (under supervision obviously). i'd say training a snake is a little far fetched, but i'd definately agree with them learning and catching on to certain situations quickly.

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I too have noticed unique behavior during picture taking. I don't know if its the flash or what but the last time I took pictures of my boy I was amazed. Earlier in the evening I had been holding him and he eventually started to get fidgety (as usual) and I went to put him back and I thought "Oh yea, I was going to take some pictures.." I laid him on the bed, got the camera, started taking photos while occasionally stopping to play with the lighting in the room. This went on for at least 30-45 mins. For starters, he didn't do his usually for running a wrinkle in the covers but instead remained in roughly the same location for a long time. On top of that he started periscoping like crazy, and did his best to look like he was intentionally posing. Eventually, he grew tired of it and went back to his normal routine but it was one of those times you just can't shake the feeling that you just witnessed something special....

For the record, goldfish do have mroe than a 5 second memory.
Goldfish are easily trained because you have something they want. Goldfish food. They eat a lot(compared to a ball python which eats once a week), and WANT that food.
Training the snake requires that you have something that it wants. You need a reward in order to train an animal. It can be a word of approval to your dog, or a piece of liver for your cat, or a bit of goldfish food for your goldfish.
Finding a reward for a snake is inherantly a dificult process. They don't usually want touching, they don't want approval, and they only eat once a week. That's why it is so HARD.
I've trained a goldfish. It's not hard. I've trained chickens. Very easy.
Training a snake? Harder. I just would hate for someone to build their expectation of what the pet can and can't do up to a unreasonable level, then find out that it can't or is incapable of. Like my other example. If someone thinks their snake "loves" them, and then they get bit by a good feeding response, because the snake sensed heat of hand, rather than lesser heat of dead mouse.. then that person might feel betrayed, and even angry that the snake "meanly" bit them for no reason. They may even decide to not keep snakes.. because "snakes are mean, even when you love them".
I feel its' just better to be honest with someone to start with. I think snakes are really cool, superbly engineered animals. I also don't get angry at the snake when it tags me while I'm feeding or cleaning bins.
Shrug. I don't want to "attack" the OP. I just would rather he have eyes-open about the situation.

You're right wolfy. I believe its actually people that have the 5-second memory - just ask any politician. ;) Wait, no that's not right..... it was politicians have a....no....umm....

So, here's something to consider: People's behaviors can also be ruthlessly (and predictably) analyzed. Just ask a successful therapist, politician, or advertiser. We're more complex, not magical. Personally, I believe animals have all (or at least nearly all) of the emotions we do - but they are more primitive versions. Why do you love somebody? Because they make you feel good. Likewise, a long-time pet probably isn't running a great scheme about how they need to suck up to you to get fed. They just come to associate you with a nice full tummy. YOU==WARM-FUZZY. What's the difference?