some genetics questions

okay... I've been trying to figure this out, but cant seem to.

I am going to be getting a pair of 100% het pied BP's as a b-day gift from a friend of mine :D I know that when I breed them together I get the chance of getting a pied, a normal, and two het for pied (basing this on a four egg clutch - I know there could be more or less).

Im also thinking of getting a 100% het albino bp.
what would happen if I bred the het albino to a het pied?
I think I would get all normals, but would half be het for pied and half for albino or?
and what would happen if I breed a pied to an albino? would the offspring be half pied, half albino, or all normals het for both, or would I get the chance of getting an albino pied too?

and would these "rules" apply to most other morphs?

This is where we get into the weird 50% and 66% possible het scenarios.
With 100% het pied to 100% het pied, you will have a theoretical ratio of 1 visual to 1 normal to two hets. so 2 out of 3 normals will be hets, that's 66% possible hets on clutches that have visuals in them.
With 100% het pied to 100% het albino, each baby would look normal, but be 50% double possible het. Theoretically, 1 normal to 1 double het, to 1 het albino to 1 het pied. Only way to get an albino pied is to have both parents either showing or carrying both traits.
both of these are recessive traits, so if you hear any other morphs that are recessive, they follow these rules. I suggest reading up on Punnet squares and the NERD and other websites that have genetics FAQ.

I've been trying to follow punnet squares, been trying to figure out corn snake genetics, but i get lost real quick when it comes to double, triple and so on hets and the outcomes. But thank you for the answer and the suggested reading. I'll keep reading to learn more. :D

If you breed a %100 het pied male to a 100% het albino female offspring would be as follows.

25% Normals
25% Het. Albino,
25% Het. Pied,
25% DH Pied Albino

This is interesting, because I just sent an e-mail to someone advertising 50% double het pied/albino. His animals are actually 25% probable double hets.

In this example (100% probable het pied x 100% probable het albino), the outcome is the same. Each offspring would be 50% probable het for EACH trait, not both. There are four possible outcomes -

PA (double het)
Pa (het pied)
pA (het albino)
pa (normal)

1 in 4 chance of double het = 25%.

So, 100% het pied x 100% het albino = 25% probable double het.

Steve

edit - too slow. Freakie beat me to it! :D

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Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

With 100% het pied to 100% het albino, each baby would look normal, but be 50% double possible het. Theoretically, 1 normal to 1 double het, to 1 het albino to 1 het pied. Only way to get an albino pied is to have both parents either showing or carrying both traits.
both of these are recessive traits, so if you hear any other morphs that are recessive, they follow these rules. I suggest reading up on Punnet squares and the NERD and other websites that have genetics FAQ.

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Originally Posted by Ladydragon

okay... I've been trying to figure this out, but cant seem to.
.....what would happen if I bred the het albino to a het pied?
I think I would get all normals, but would half be het for pied and half for albino or?
and what would happen if I breed a pied to an albino? would the offspring be half pied, half albino, or all normals het for both, or would I get the chance of getting an albino pied too?

and would these "rules" apply to most other morphs?

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When breeding any het, each individual offspring has a 50% chance on inheriting the recessive gene from each parent. With a pair of het albinos this results in a 25% chance to hatch an albino, and a 75% of not (obviously). All the normal looking offspring would be considered 66% poss hets, meaning they have a 2/3 chance of being carriers.

When breeding hets of two different recessive traits, each parent still has a 50% chance of passing on the recessive gene, so all offspring would be considered 50% het for each trait, and have a 25% of being het for both. The actual breakdown of the pair in question is:

25% - normal
25% - het pied
25% - het albino
25% - double het

Since you don't know what is what, they are all poss. double hets. When two possible double het siblings (from above pairing) are bred together, you have a 1/16 of both parents being double hets, then each egg will have a 1/16 chance of inheriting both sets (all 4) of recessive genes. Breeding for double recessive combos with two het parents is a long road to possibly nothing spectacular. It can also be a fun gamble, with other possiblities down the road (proving out the poss hets for each trait). Just don't bet the farm on it. :D

Hope that helps.

-Evan

heh.. okay I think Im getting this, but just to make sure:

in order to produce a pied albino (showing the trait):

1) I would need to breed two bps that are BOTH carrying the trait (het) for pied and albino. - or -
2) I could breed a piebald (showing the trait) to an albino (showing the trait) and get at least one that is showing both traits.

beat me with a stick if Im not getting this any faster. :D

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Originally Posted by Ladydragon

2) I could breed a piebald (showing the trait) to an albino (showing the trait) and get at least one that is showing both traits.

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Nope. A piebald x albino would produce all 100% double hets, which is a much more likely road to a pied albino ball. The traits are inherited independant of each other. Breeding 100% double hets are still a long shot to a double recessive though, as each egg has a 1/16 chance of getting all four genes (one for each trait from each parent). This is the reason you just don't see very many double recessive BPs around, they are VERY difficult to produce compared to other species that have larger clutch sizes.

-Evan

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Originally Posted by Evan Jamison

Nope. A piebald x albino would produce all 100% double hets, which is a much more likely road to a pied albino ball. The traits are inherited independant of each other. Breeding 100% double hets are still a long shot to a double recessive though, as each egg has a 1/16 chance of getting all four genes (one for each trait from each parent). This is the reason you just don't see very many double recessive BPs around, they are VERY difficult to produce compared to other species that have larger clutch sizes.

-Evan

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aaahhh.. okay... but still its feasible.. just a very long road. thanx for the help..

okay.. now you can comence beating me with a stick.. LOL

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Originally Posted by Ladydragon

aaahhh.. okay... but still its feasible.. just a very long road. thanx for the help..

okay.. now you can comence beating me with a stick.. LOL

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Why beat you if you have the time to do it that way I'd say rock on with it. I mean think or all the pieds and albinos and het you'll end up with when its all done. Good way to get a head start on a lot of projects.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Why beat you if you have the time to do it that way I'd say rock on with it.

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:D maybe I just like spankings.. er beatings. LOL

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I mean think or all the pieds and albinos and het you'll end up with when its all done. Good way to get a head start on a lot of projects.

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yeah I was thinking that too... and all the possibiites!!

okay, now to bump this thread into action again. what would result in breeding together two 50% poss. het pieds? 1/16 chance of having a 100% het pied offspring out of 4 (basing on a 4 egg clutch)? Although I know breeding that together would take longer than breeding 100% het pieds together to produce a pied. ::sigh:: wonder if I'll ever get the bp I want.

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Originally Posted by Ladydragon

okay, now to bump this thread into action again. what would result in breeding together two 50% poss. het pieds? 1/16 chance of having a 100% het pied offspring out of 4 (basing on a 4 egg clutch)? Although I know breeding that together would take longer than breeding 100% het pieds together to produce a pied. ::sigh:: wonder if I'll ever get the bp I want.

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If I'm readin you right I think you got it.....

You'd have a 1/4 chance of gettting a pied out of proven het x proven het breeding pair.

Since you have only have 50% for each of your animals being a het that would be (1/2)x(1/2)x(1/4)=1/16. That's somewhat contingent only buying possible hets from a reputable, stand-up breeder. ;)

Wouldn't it be better to breed a 100% het to a 50%? Because from the two 50%, one may be het and the other not, in which case you'd have another batch of 50% hets but have no way of knowing, or (if you're really lucky) both are hets and you get a visual pied and 66% hets--worst case scenario you have two normals and all normal babies, but as with the problem of just one being het, you have no idea whether one of the parents is het or not.

Personally if it were a matter of budget, I'd get a male 100% het and a couple female 50% hets and hope one of them proves out. That way there's not quite as much guesswork involved, and if you're unlucky--well, at least you'd have a clutch or two of 50% hets to hold back and breed to dad later; odds are one of THEM will be het!

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

If I'm readin you right I think you got it.....

You'd have a 1/4 chance of gettting a pied out of proven het x proven het breeding pair.

Since you have only have 50% for each of your animals being a het that would be (1/2)x(1/2)x(1/4)=1/16. That's somewhat contingent only buying possible hets from a reputable, stand-up breeder. ;)

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yep thats what I thought too.. I'm learning slowly :D

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Originally Posted by Seneschal

Wouldn't it be better to breed a 100% het to a 50%? Because from the two 50%, one may be het and the other not, in which case you'd have another batch of 50% hets but have no way of knowing, or (if you're really lucky) both are hets and you get a visual pied and 66% hets--worst case scenario you have two normals and all normal babies, but as with the problem of just one being het, you have no idea whether one of the parents is het or not.

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hence why I asked as to what the chances are. I know that reducing the percentage of het per animal reduces the chance of achieving my ultimate goal of getting a pied. But sometimes it helps to get feed back from others to fully cement an idea or stop it dead in its tracks. :D

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Originally Posted by Seneschal

Personally if it were a matter of budget, I'd get a male 100% het and a couple female 50% hets and hope one of them proves out. That way there's not quite as much guesswork involved, and if you're unlucky--well, at least you'd have a clutch or two of 50% hets to hold back and breed to dad later; odds are one of THEM will be het!

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now this is a possibility I hadn't thought of to which I say thank you. I was aiming on getting two 100% het pied, just trying to figure it out budget wise (payment plans are an option). this may take a bit longer, but could possibly result in the same end result of getting a pied.. whoo hoo! :carrot:

:D Glad to help! But I wanna see pics of whatever you get, and of the eventual eggs! I know het pied females are expensive, but the males aren't that bad, and 50%-66% het females are MUCH more affordable, so 2-3 of those will definitely up your chances for a pied. And if you happen to make more than one pied, you'll be really, really lucky and will have the basis for a good breeding program! Good luck with whatever you decide to get, and I hope you get that pied!

thanx I hope so too... ever since I saw them years back. I have always wanted one.. but the price kept them out of my reach.. but now other options are available and well.. you see where I'm going with this :D and of course pics are a MUST!!! Now Im just anticipating making payment arrangements or something to get this started.

I know what you mean, piebalds are gorgeous! Unfortunately I can't afford one either, lol, and since I'm still living at home, I can't buy that many snakes for a breeding program just yet; my dad's response to hearing that I'm going to breed the pastel I'm buying next month when it's large enough was, "the thought of walking into my daughter's room and seeing two snakes making out is just wrong!" I doubt he'd go for a whole het pied breeding thing. :P


I'm so excited for you!!! I hope you get some great snakes from a good breeder! Here's to hoping any possible hets you get prove out!

lol.. not sure if hubby is keen on the idea either, but he'll give in or put up with it just to make me happy. At least your dad lets you have snakes. My mom was like, eww why do you want a snake? they are so impersonal, you cant cuddle with them. heh. little does she know. lol

That's good, then! I dunnow, for me, between a BP breeding project and a guy...the snakes win out every time. MUCH more cuddly and cute! (Less smelly, too!) :P Really? That's funny, snakes are adorable and quite cuddle-able...Between my mom and dad, it's my dad who doesn't really like snakes (nevermind that he was the one who said I could get one as long as my mom took me to get it, thinking she hated snakes--imagine his surprise when we came home two days later with my little girl!) and my mom loves Matika.

Has your mom ever warmed up to snakes...?

she'll look at them, touch em if I have em out of the tank, but she wont deliberately go into the tank to take them out. My new female corn snake decided to escape the day before my mom was coming up for a weekend visit. You should have seen her eyes bug out of her head when I told her to just keep her eyes open for a loose snake. I told her if she saw it to just grab it for me, and she was like.. Uh.. um.. uh,. well if I really really have to. heh.. guess she felt a bit of relief that the snake didn't show herself that weekend.

Haha! I'm sure it was funny to you... And not-so-funny for her! Yeah, my mom's similar--she won't open my girl's tank, but whenever she happens to see me wandering around the house holding her, she almost always comes over to either pet her or steal her for a while. (And this the same woman who shrieked when I brought in a yellow rat snake I caught in our yard!) Ah, well, at least your mom's not quite as scared of them, now...!