Help needed pronto

Hi, I've been researching ball pythons for a few months now, and am ready to purchase one in the next few days. The only problem is, I'm being told different things and do not know what is better, or recommended. First off, I'm looking for a baby ball python, normal, no morphs or anything, and most importantly, a captive bred one. I originally set my mind on a female, since reading they grow a little longer, and are "beefier." So is there any other major difference between the sexes? Is one more aggressive or the like?

Okay, now for the story...there are two pet stores nearby which are telling me two totally different things (Don't worry, they're not Petco, etc., they are actually privately owned, and each seem very intelligent, especially in regards to reptiles, but each is telling me something different.

The one store is offering me for about $145 (snake included) a whole setup. The reason I didn't go for it right away, is because they only have baby males. Now this is what they recommend: A light/lamp as opposed to a U.T.H. They then tell me that the UV lights replicate the sun, and it's the closest thing to nature.

They then, without hesitation, talk about feeding live. They then go on to talk about, how it too, is what happens in nature. I then asked about possible damage if a bite were to occur from a mouse...they then said, well in the wild, there isn't a First Aid station...lol...funny, but I agreed. They then said as long as you do not leave the critter with the snake unattended, you will be fine. The reason the price is sort of high, is because they charge $100 for the babies...because they are all captive born & bred...and all eat terrific, and then they told me they have to force feed about 3 per week from people who bought their snake from Petco, etc.

Now the other store, has totally different beliefs. They actually don't have any baby ball pythons in stock, but would sell me a cage setup for around $50. Unlike the other place, they recommend U.T.H. as opposed to any UV lighting. I asked about the lamps, and how they replicate the sun, etc. and they actually had a good counter-defense for it. They said well, technically, since ball pythons are nocturnal, the majority of their day is spent in burrows, obviously avoiding the sun. The burrows are what is heated, and thus, closely replicates a U.T.H.

Now, they also feel differently about feeding. They believe f/t is the best way to go. Not only because it's cheaper, but it's easier also. They did say however, small, young, ball pythons are OK to be fed live, but later should be switched.

Also, If I decided to order online, which sounds like a pretty cool idea (Your package is here...oh really, open it up...OMG, snakes! lol) what are the best sites to consider? I've called many up, like Reptile Depot and several others, and they only have "farm" raised, which I want no part of. If I do keep my mind on a female baby ball, I would have to order online, because no one around here has any, at least for a few months...so I would just need a highly reputible site which deals only with captive born and bred pythons.

Any feedback on these concerns would greatly be appreciated. Thanks much!

Females do tend to get larger than males, sometimes very significantly. There is no difference in temperament between the sexes except in the case of gravid or incubating females.

Store #2 was correct in that ball pythons do not need uv light. UTH is preferred. Supplemental heat from above can be provided if needed, but certainly does not need to be uv! Your best alternative for heating is to go with a UTH controlled by either a thermostat or rheostat (thermostat preferred).

If considering purchasing a captive bred bp from a pet store, I would definitely ask about the sire and dam of the baby, and perhaps the breeder's name. Make them PROVE that it is captive bred, and not captive hatched (imported).

As far as live vs frozen/thawed, around here (ball-pythons.net), its done both ways. In my personal collection, I have some that get frozen/thawed, and some that get live. With supervision, and proper prey size, there is no problem with live.

Do plenty of reading right here on ball-pythons.net to get a good feel for how you want to set up your enclosure. I think you'll find that you don't want to buy a "complete setup" from a pet store. They almost NEVER provide exactly what you need/want. There are plenty of threads here that cover setting up a glass tank, commercial reptile cage, and/or a plastic tub. Check the husbandry forum and the caging forum.

Finally, in the process of reading and browsing the forums, you're going to see several breeders mentioned here that are of the utmost quality. NERD, 8ballpythons and Bailey and Bailey Reptiles are just a few that are represented here and can provide you with a quality captive bred animal.

Hope this helps somewhat,
Steve

Hi,


Steve pretty much nailed it for ya.

Given what you said I would give my money to shop 2 for the things I wanted to buy locally.

Read the threads on tubs and tanks and decide what you would prefer and then plan out what you will actually need to buy and remember to have the tank/tub set up and running for a week or so before you plan on getting the snake to make sure everhthing is set up exactly right.

It's only fair to point out captive hatched babies are also ok to raise as long as they've been started correctly. Though there is a certain comfort to be had knowing that the person you are buying from knows enough about them to have bred his own stock.

Also check out the feedback area to get reports on other members experiences with various suppliers.

And welcome to the site.:D


dr del

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Originally Posted by beachvibesbyeff

I've called many up, like Reptile Depot and several others, and they only have "farm" raised, which I want no part of.

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I'm not sure why you want no part of captive hatched (aka farmed) ball pythons? If they are well started, are really no different then captive bred. Pet store #1 is charging way too much for a captive bred male - $30 max is what I'd spend on one.

I have 16 ball pythons, 11 are captive hatched and do just as well as the captive bred.

I purchased many of my females from Will Bird at http://www.ectotherms.net (but his are captive hatched - but well started babies). I don't hesitate to recommend him. I also have purchased some CH babies from Michael Cole at http://www.ballroompythonssouth.com and wouldn't hesitate to recommend him for nice, well started CH babies.

Here are a few examples of my "farmed" babies:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...ho/EchoJan.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...ckenzieJan.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...ndi/Bindi3.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...retzelJan2.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...o/J-LoMar8.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...BaileeJan3.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9.../ReeseApr2.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...SierraNov3.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...andoraJan4.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...e/Hannah10.jpg

If I rejected the idea of farmed animals - none of these beauties would be in my collection! :eek:

I get a wee bit defensive about my lovely CH kiddos. None of them tested positive for internal parasites and all of them are fabulous, reliable feeders.

I also am one of the live feeders here - the largest prey that any of mine get are small/small rats, which are about 4 to 5 weeks old with teeth that are still soft.

Feed what's most convenient for you - that's what we advocate here. Live, pre-killed and frozen/thawed can and are offered safely by our various members.

I do agree with Store #2 on the UTH vs. the lamp, none of mine have lamps, all are in tubs or a rack with flexwatt as the UTH, controlled with a quality thermostat.

Good luck!

Well with the farmed animals, not only is there a higher chance for them to not eat, but to me, it's wrong...someone stealing the eggs when the female is away, and importing them and hatching them here?! No way!

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Originally Posted by beachvibesbyeff

Well with the farmed animals, not only is there a higher chance for them to not eat, but to me, it's wrong...someone stealing the eggs when the female is away, and importing them and hatching them here?! No way!

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Where did you get that there's a higher chance for them to not eat? My captive breds are more likely to refuse for me than my captive hatched. In fact, there was an interesting discussion on Kingsnake about a month ago about how many of the large breeders noticed that CH babies tend to get "started" easier for them then the ones they breed themselves.

They don't hatch the CH babies here - they are hatched in Africa and then shipped here. Mom really could care less about her babies.

I'm simply saying - when you buy a well started CH, it's not much difference than purchasing a Captive Bred. The snake certainly doesn't know the difference, they're both hatched in captivity.

I think the people who have issues with non-feeding CH babies are babies purchased from chain stores, where they haven't been in proper housing conditions. If one buys a BP from a chain store, where proper housing needs aren't met, and if the employees from said store give a new BP owner faulty husbandry advice, then the BP may not eat because of stress.

I think the key here, that Robin's trying to say, is that buying CH is fine--but if you're going to do it, buy from a reliable source. Many big-time, well respected BP breeders bring in WC or CH stock into their own facilities every year, to get some new blood into their lines.

And most breeders of CBB babies don't leave the eggs with the mother either--the eggs are laid and then put in an incubator to hatch.

But if you want a CBB baby, there's nothing wrong with that either--and some sources already mentioned would be good places to start!

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Originally Posted by beachvibesbyeff

Well with the farmed animals, not only is there a higher chance for them to not eat, but to me, it's wrong...someone stealing the eggs when the female is away, and importing them and hatching them here?! No way!

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Yeah but at one point in time in the lineage of a captive-bred bp, the mother was "stolen" from the wild, or else we would never be able to keep them as pets. If you want to keep a snake, which is a "wild" animal, I don't understand why this bothers you so much.

If I were you I'd go with a CB or CH baby online, from one of the breeders suggested. As for the setup, if you purchase one from one of those stores, chances are after doing some reading after the fact, you will want to change it. Read some threads on housing in plastic tubs, which are MUCH easier to maintain IMO.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Where did you get that there's a higher chance for them to not eat? My captive breds are more likely to refuse for me than my captive hatched. In fact, there was an interesting discussion on Kingsnake about a month ago about how many of the large breeders noticed that CH babies tend to get "started" easier for them then the ones they breed themselves.

They don't hatch the CH babies here - they are hatched in Africa and then shipped here. Mom really could care less about her babies.

I'm simply saying - when you buy a well started CH, it's not much difference than purchasing a Captive Bred. The snake certainly doesn't know the difference, they're both hatched in captivity.

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Well, see, IMO, that's even worse. A hatched baby from Africa imported to live in captivity, particularly in a 10 gallon terranium...not right. Especially if they are hatched in Africa, they deserve the wild. At least with CBB, they never experienced nature, and were breed specifically to be raised domestically, as a pet.

Also, as a side question...if I go with the U.T.H. do I still need a basking lamp or will the heater be enough?

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Originally Posted by beachvibesbyeff

Well, see, IMO, that's even worse. A hatched baby from Africa imported to live in captivity, particularly in a 10 gallon terranium...not right. Especially if they are hatched in Africa, they deserve the wild. At least with CBB, they never experienced nature, and were breed specifically to be raised domestically, as a pet.

Also, as a side question...if I go with the U.T.H. do I still need a basking lamp or will the heater be enough?

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More than likely they never experienced nature there. Most of the babies coming in are incubated and packaged up to be shipped off. As soon as they get here they are put into enclosures. Who says they have to live in a 10 gallon terrarium (which is hardly a terrarium, it is an aquarium).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beachvibesbyeff

Well, see, IMO, that's even worse. A hatched baby from Africa imported to live in captivity, particularly in a 10 gallon terranium...not right. Especially if they are hatched in Africa, they deserve the wild. At least with CBB, they never experienced nature, and were breed specifically to be raised domestically, as a pet.

Also, as a side question...if I go with the U.T.H. do I still need a basking lamp or will the heater be enough?

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Ay yi, yi!!! A CH baby also NEVER experienced nature and was meant to be raised domestically as a pet.

How do you think ANY ball pythons were first brought to the States? As CH babies. How do you think we get morphs? From Africa, they have to be proved out here. You have some very strong opinions against CH, but I'm not understanding why that is.

As far as your question - depends on your room temps. If they aren't too cool, a UTH should be enough.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Ay yi, yi!!! A CH baby also NEVER experienced nature and was meant to be raised domestically as a pet.

How do you think ANY ball pythons were first brought to the States? As CH babies. How do you think we get morphs? From Africa, they have to be proved out here. You have some very strong opinions against CH, but I'm not understanding why that is.

As far as your question - depends on your room temps. If they aren't too cool, a UTH should be enough.

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Okay, same thing. Maybe the individual baby never experienced nature, but it wasn't meant, or intended, to be raised domestically. The babies weren't bred domestically, thus were intended not to be pets, but to live in the wild.

Here's another way to put it - if babies were not imported each year from Africa, you'd be paying 3 to 4 times the amount that you pay today for a normal ball python.

Ball pythons, whether Captive hatched or captive bred are STILL wild animals - so with your argument, even captive bred should never be kept as pets - as they are not truly domesticated (domestication takes HUNDREDS of years, not 10 or 20).

I still don't see why it's wrong to import ball pythons from Africa, hatched IN CAPTIVITY, when ball pythons are now being seen as pests in some areas of Africa, because they are so abundant. Those not shipped here for the pet trade are simply shipped to Asia to be slaughtered for food and their skin. Which would you prefer for these captive hatched babies? A chance to be an adored pet in the States, or dinner in Asia?

They're leaving Africa one way or another.

They were bred because that is the natural instinct of animals. They didn't breed because they wanted a family.

Yes, they were meant to live in the wild so they could get eaten by birds, and other predators, and also the local human population. They can live in the wild where they will get internal and external parasites, scars, etc. That sounds like a great life!

I'm going to go hug(or try to, LOL) all of my captive hatched babies. They are the ones that help bring diversity and help strengthen the genetic pool.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

I'm going to go hug(or try to, LOL) all of my captive hatched babies. They are the ones that help bring diversity and help strengthen the genetic pool.

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Make sure to hug that 'ol ugly, unhappy CH boy Sullivan for me! He's so spoiled he wouldn't make it one day in the wild! :D

No he probably wouldn't! He'd wonder where his newspaper went! Or his plastic pot saucers! He couldn't hide properly anymore! OMG! Poor, spoiled rotten slithery thing ;) You know he's so abused here..

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Originally Posted by beachvibesbyeff

Okay, same thing. Maybe the individual baby never experienced nature, but it wasn't meant, or intended, to be raised domestically. The babies weren't bred domestically, thus were intended not to be pets, but to live in the wild.

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I don't understand how intent becomes an issue... What if those eggs were intended to be eaten by a predator. Who you still rather not interfere? If you were against the keeping of reptiles period, I could understand your point. But I don't get the feelings towards CH alone.

So when is the next PETA meeting? lol...

I'll keep my CH Ball Pythons....I'm a theif I guess.

Oh.... and I shouldn't have had that dog I had years ago... it was a domestic Captive Born...but its ancestry was probably from wild dogs....

...and I suppose I shouldn't keep any fish either, most of which are F1 of wild caught parent fish... they probably don't appreciate being kept in a glass box void of predation and lots of food.

Those poor miserable creatures...I really should set them free.:8:

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Originally Posted by beachvibesbyeff

Okay, same thing. Maybe the individual baby never experienced nature, but it wasn't meant, or intended, to be raised domestically. The babies weren't bred domestically, thus were intended not to be pets, but to live in the wild.

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Meant or intended by who? Nature? If that's the case, you were never meant to live in a house with electricity. Back to the savannah with you!

I am so totally kidding, y'all better laugh! :D

Whoops sorry. I guess I'll just go ship my CH 06 female baby and my *gasp* wild caught female back to Africa.... to well probably die because they aren't use to that. In my care they both are great eaters and healthy snakes.

::runs off to hug and love on Sassy & Sahara::

This person just came her for advice; I am stunned that the thread has gotten so vicious! Granted, not all snakes that were not CBB are trash; not by far. Seems like the OP does not think that it's moral to take snakes or their eggs from the wild when there are already captive breeders here; fine with that; to each their own.
I would avoid the pet stores at all costs. You want a reliable, reuptable breeder that is not going to sell you poop. :) I have a few that I would recommend, but I don't want it tho seem like I am advertising or anything; please PM me if you are interested in their names. I have bought frrom them personally and would not just recommend them otherwise.