Okeetee Aggression

Hi all you corn snake folks, I have a young male okeetee that approximately 18 to 24 inches. I bought him at the Long Island herp expo. He was very calm and handlable at the show but that didn't last long. He is the most aggressive corn I have ever seen. All he does is strike constantly at any hand movement or any movement at all. Is this something that is common to Okeetee phase corns? We also have a reverse okeetee and an amel, that are both just fantastic, very calm and love to hang out with you. Any ideas from all you corn experts. I am still learning about corns. Thanks in advance for any help. P.S. We have benn taking him out and handling him 3 to 4 times a day, and we don't put him down until he relaxes, but it hasn't seemed to make a bit of difference.
Mike

I recently read a little about handling aggressive herps. Its recommend using those ugly yellow rubber cleaning gloves to handle. Something about the feel and taste that teaches em fast. I never resorted to gloves for anything. I just let em bite me if they feel like it. No pain no game right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by New Herper

Hi all you corn snake folks, I have a young male okeetee that approximately 18 to 24 inches. I bought him at the Long Island herp expo. He was very calm and handlable at the show but that didn't last long. He is the most aggressive corn I have ever seen. All he does is strike constantly at any hand movement or any movement at all. Is this something that is common to Okeetee phase corns? We also have a reverse okeetee and an amel, that are both just fantastic, very calm and love to hang out with you. Any ideas from all you corn experts. I am still learning about corns. Thanks in advance for any help. P.S. We have benn taking him out and handling him 3 to 4 times a day, and we don't put him down until he relaxes, but it hasn't seemed to make a bit of difference.
Mike

---

When you bought him at the show he was not all toasty and warm and more then likely scared.If you buy a pair of gloves and work with him by handling him he should get out of that biting stuff.Think about this he was cramed into a deli-cup then bounced around a few times(aka people looking at him/her.Then this large warm thing(aka you lol) buys him and puts him in a strange place.Then tries to reach in and eat him/her(aka handling to you) lol.

3 or 4 times a day? :eek: Wow, I'd be striking at you too if you did that to me!
You've got to take into consideration aclimation time. He's in a strange place with all sorts of strange scents and stimuli and you're yanking him out of his strange new abode every time ya turn around, of course he's going to be grumpy.
I don't know if handling snakes several times a day is your norm but they don't need to be handled more than 3 or 4 times a week, (some would say only once or twice a week) not a day.
Leave him alone for a few days, give him time to relax a bit, then take him out again... to a quiet place...and hold him for about 20 minutes or how ever long it takes him to start calming down and realizing that he's not going to get eaten.

What you can also do, which I had to do with my bull snake, is to take some of the hair out of your hair brush...not a lot, just a few strands, and put that in the snake's container, that way his home smells like him and you.

yea you should give him at least a week with no handling, just check up on him and change the water. then after the week, take him out maybe 15-20 min every couple of days to get used to you handling him.

corns aren't really the hang out kind of snakes when they are young, at least none of mine are yet. they can be very flighty, mine will try to jump out of my hand when i first pick him up. but once he realizes he's not dinner, he calms down. they are not like ball pythons that will sit on your lap or just hang around your neck.

How long have you actually had this snake? What's his setup like, his feeding habits and where in the house is his tank located? Sometimes a change to a quieter location, covering three sides of a glass tank or adding in fakes vinery/coverage can help the more flightly colubrids settle in better. Is he a good, consistent eater so you can assume this isn't a food driven reaction? Does he have hides or deep aspen he can retreat into/under so he feels less exposed and reactive? How about things like loud music, a lot of foot traffic near his home? How do the humans that handle him react when he strikes wildly at them?

Sometimes some small changes can really help our little scaley friends to adjust better. Three or four times a day handling, if he's already stressing over a housing situation is probably adding to his defensive striking so perhaps cutting that back while you reassess his living situation might be in order.

Sorry guys, I forgot to mention we have had him over a month and gave him more than a weeks settle in period.

I'm gonna have to agree with the others though 3-4 times a day is just too much stress on him in his new environment.
Also since he DOES not like you yet and does not feel comfortable I would only recommend handlin times of 5 minutes or so at a time, short and sweet.
This has nothing to do with the color of his scales he's just fiesty. Just remember, the more you back down the more he's gonna know he has power over you, show no fear.
And keep in mind, a rodent will bite you way harder than a corn ever will.

I realize this is the "corn snake" forum, but since we're talking fiesty, aggressive snakes, let me tell you about my bull snake.
I got him in December. He was around 20" or so then, he's shed a couple times and is quite a bit bigger now. Anyway, the woman I got him from handled him just fine and he would sit in her hand and just chill; she never had any problems with him. When I got him, I let him settle in for a couple weeks, only disturbing his new home to clean and fill his water. Well, every time I would pick him up he would hiss and rattle and try desperately to get away, but never went to strike once he was outside his container. After about a month of handling him a couple times a week, he got no better, he actually got worse in some ways. He would still hiss and rattle but now he had taken to trying to strike as well. He would, sometimes, settle down rather quickly and not try to get away, opting to hide in my hair instead, but even the slightest movement would send him into a panic again.
So, I put a few strands of my hair in his container and continued the handling process as usual... a couple times a week.
He still puts on his show when he's in his container and still tries to get away for the first couple minutes after being picked up but the striking has stopped and he is, overall, more calm.
I don't expect him to ever really be a calm "yes, hold me please" kind of snake but he is coming around.

Quote:

---

I would only recommend handlin times of 5 minutes or so at a time, short and sweet.

---

I'm going to disagree with this, only because of my own experiences and what I have been told by many snake keepers.
It has been my experience that when handling is kept to very short amounts of time and if the snake is put back in its container while it is still very aggressive, frightened, etc. it actually serves to the oppisite of the objective. If you handle a snake for the purpose of getting them accostom to being handled and if you put them back too early, they think they have won the battle with the horrible preditor (you) and thus, were released because they did not make a very good choice for a meal. Thus, they continue that behavior because "it always worked before".
If you handle them long enough (in a quiet place) for them to start calming down and being less deffensive, then put them back, they get the idea that you're not actually going to eat them.
Generally 20 minutes is enough time for them to settle down. Another thing you might want to consider is *how* you are holding the snake. Are you holding him tightly in your hands, away from your body and restricting its movement? If so, loosen your grip on him, bring him into your body and let him slither around on your body, only restraining him when necessary for the purpose of keeping him within a certain area.
Also, don't let a bunch of people handle him until he is more use to being handled by you.
All of the strange scents are just going to freak him out more. Let him get to know you first, then let others, one person at a time, handle him.

I still won't let my kids handle my bull snake because he's just a skittish guy and is super fast. While I'm not at all conserned that he would try and strike at the kids, he *would* get away from them. My MBK use to be as frightened as your corn is when we first got her (as a tiny baby). What I did with her, after she got use to me and was OK with me taking her out and playing with her, I would sit the kids in a circle on the floor around me, let Ketzel (that's her name) loose on the floor and let her go where she wanted to go. If she slithered up one of the kids' pant legs, so be it. If she zoomed across their feet, so be it. I let her get use to the rest of the house hold on *her* terms.

Just some things you might want to try since your guy is so nervous and frightened, but also bear in mind that he may never completly settle down.

I would wear a thick shirt, and just grab. Pull him out and don't flinch, recoil, etc. I was using a stick to get my corn out but finally had enough, and just do this. Mine is very aggresive in his tank, but once he is out, he just goes about his business.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ginevive

I would wear a thick shirt, and just grab. Pull him out and don't flinch, recoil, etc.

---

I'll have to agree with this!!

While not everyone will recommend this method, this is one thing that helped me to calm down my fiesty young boa. He's still weird, and will nip just out of the blue, but he keeps it to a minimum...he's no longer a striking, flailing psycho. If you grab the snake and it startles you, you quickly put it down, you just taught it that, to get what it wants all it needs to do is intimidate you. Do not let the snake teach YOU! Hold it until it settles down, and make sure it's nice and settled before you let it have what it wants. I'd say 15-30 minute sessions once or twice a week would be alright and should give you results.

Joanna had told me that snakes do best on a consistent schedule, and she is absolutely right. I give myself a small preperation talk, as she suggested, and I just reach right in and grab little Kona. I used to use gloves but they were too restricting for me. I had almost dropped him numerous times because I could not feel how tightly he was holding on. That idea did not last long, and I just started using bare hands. His nips did not hurt at all, I think it's just the anticipation of getting bit that makes us a bit nervous. My cat fights harder and hurts ALOT worse than Kona could! I'm sensitive to cat scratches...after a "wrestling" match with my cat, my hands can barely move, but a nip from Kona, I just giggle at and tell him he's silly. He's starting to give up all fighting, now, however, and rarely nips. I think he's finally realizing that there's nothing he can do to intimidate me, anymore. He still thinks he can catch me off-guard, but I'm always ready to stand my ground should he decide to snag me. Pulling back is the WORST thing you can do...you may pull out teeth or seriously injure your baby's jaws!

Also, yes, I also agree that handling THAT MUCH a day is way too much and way too stressful. My calmer snakes get handled about once a week. I usually just change their water, clean up any messes every 1-3 days, and toss in their food (1 time a week). I typically only handle if someone is acting "sketchy," and looking like they're starting to not trust me. They've never bitten me. I just reassure them I'm still the same person and they're back to their normal personalities. Kona gets it religiously 1-2 times a week, and is still getting calmer each handling session.

Just pick a routine and stick to it. Be calm. And check out all of what Joanna/frankykeno asked you! It could be a feeding response, husbandry problem, etc. Make sure everything is perfect in ALL areas. Good luck! :sunny:

I'm liking these tips which I could use with taming my JCP (I know, different species, but same scenario). I thought about gloves but it seems like it would defeat the purpose (lack of my scent).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grim91Z

I thought about gloves but it seems like it would defeat the purpose (lack of my scent).

---

I don't know how much snakes imprint on scent, really. The downside to the gloves (for me) was just that I couldn't tell how tightly the snake was gripping me. I really didn't want to drop him and have him dart away and be even more afraid of me. Or even hurt him, though I only hold him over my lap while sitting, just in case he ever does try to mislead me and then try darting away. Kona is a sneaky snake, let me tell you! I personally don't believe anyone who says snakes can't reason like that. As soon as they think you've dropped your guard, they may very well surprise you! Kona has, and still does on occassion. He's toning it down much more, now, but once every 2-3 weeks or so, he'll "test" me to see if I've broken down and completely trust him.

I see him like a child, sometimes. Some kids just live to push your limits, see if you've turned into a softie...this is how Kona is. ;) I'm wise to his tricks, though, and I only hope he realizes that and actually stops completely, but I still adore him and find him to be a great addition to my collection.

Back to the gloves-thing...I think only someone that has a very aggressive snake that causes alot of painful bites/damage should use them. Or of course, someone that is afraid of pulling back and hurting the snake should also use them. I'll stick to my no-gloves, hands-on method. It makes me so much more comfortable.

Yeah; I only handle my corn once every few days or so.
Another hint, is to use something like a tank lid (screen top) to block your hand from the snake's head. Then pick him up bodily, but avoid moving your hand around prey-like in front of tis face. Usually by the time they are out of the cage, they are more interested in seeing where they are and investigating things instead of defending their comfortable territory :)

Good point Genivive.
I too just reach in and grab, generally right around the middle of the snake's belly. I don't try and go for the upper or lower third of the snake's head or tail. Preditors tend to go for the head (and with some snakes whos tails are designed to look like a head, like rubber boas), thus, they tend to be more deffensive (IME) when you reach near their heads.
If picked up by the mid-section then supported underneath at the head portion, they tend to freak out less because their heads are not being "attacked".

Now granted, I would not pick up a venomous snake in that fashion though...that's a good way for a venomous snake to twist its self around and tag you. :eek: But non venomus snakes, corns and baby corns especially, being bitten is the least of my worries. Getting splatteed by grease hurts more than that. :D

This has already probably been mentioned in this thread but I'll go ahead and say it anyway. Baby corns *tend* to be a bit bitey. Keep working with your little guy and he'll continue to settle down. *Not* working with a baby corn is a good way to raise an aggressive, bitey adult corn. ;)

Thanks To All of you for some really great suggestions. We have backed off on the handling and I addressed some feeding issues. I am a newby and I wasn't feeding them enough. So last night instead of his usual 1 or 2 pinkies he got a F/T hopper mouse. Big difference, in his behaviour, I went in his tank to change water and make sure he didn't regurge and he didn't get defensive and no striking. I didn't try and pick him up though which won't happen for a few days. Again thanks for all the help and I will keep everyone posted as to " How The Okeetee Strikes!"
Mike

I'd agree with what everyone else is saying. Handling once a day is more than enough for my snake. I just recently got a snake and it's an Okeetee corn that is approximately 18". I got him in April at a snake show and he's not agressive at all. In fact he's usually pretty shy until he's out for awhile and then he's pretty fast. I think its just the individual snake since we have roughly the same type and size of snake and yet mine is calmer than calm.