Burn point...

At what temperature do you risk contact burns? Somebody posted 105 but that can't be right.

Any reason why that can't be right?

Because it can get to 105 degrees ambient temperature on a hot day. A human with a bad illness can almost get up there.

In general animal "flesh" does not die at 105. Certainly body temperates at that level can kill but it doesn't tend to produce contact burns. I would say, at least for people, that contact burns prolly start at 120 or so.

these aren't people you are dealing with. I don't let my hot spot get higher than 95 and my ambient higher than 85. Have had no problems.

yea I know they aren't people but all creatures are made from the same basic stuff, use the same basic chemistry, and are designed to live in roughly the same environment (give or take a few degrees depending on location).

I've had issues with my warm side getting up to 105 but no sign of burns - he just has to come out to cool off periodically. I kind of like that he has to thermoregulate because then I'm sure he can get as hot as he wants. But, I think 105 is too high and i've been adjusting it downwards. That just got me curious if it was known at what point snakes started to get burns.

If there is a problem with security or temp, a snake will burn itself. It doesn't move. The nerves in the scutes or along the snake send the signal, but by the time the brain gets the message, the snake is severely burned.


Your snake will thermoregulate just fine, if you provide ambient warmth of 82-84* and the hot spot is 92-94*, controlled w/a t-stat or rheostat w/o any serious threat of injury to your pet.

Yea getting there. I don't quite have that good a setup just yet. Right now I have an always-on UTH that seems to put out a constant 105. I adjust the temp by the thickness of the substrate.

I've heard that they can't feel contact temps very well but he's been in contact with the glass several times and no sign of injury.

I lost a great male to a burn with the same teps 105 in the hide,and the same setup you are talking about. Keep a close eye on him. Just had to let you know so Reggie didnt die in vein.

can you be more specific on what happened? How did you know it was temp that did it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bearhart

Yea getting there. I don't quite have that good a setup just yet. Right now I have an always-on UTH that seems to put out a constant 105. I adjust the temp by the thickness of the substrate.

I've heard that they can't feel contact temps very well but he's been in contact with the glass several times and no sign of injury.

---

First to clear up a few misconceptions.

When you take your temperature you are taking an oral temperature. Human beings have sweat glands that reduce our core temperature, so an external (aka, oral) temp is going to be higher than our bodies core temperature. If our core temperature reaches 105 degrees, we run a very serious risk of heatstroke. A core temperature of 110 is fatal for human beings.

Now, knowing that, snakes don't have a way of internally regulating their temperatures. They have to rely on external forces to control internal temperatures. A belly heat of 105, is going to quickly increase the core temperature of a snake to 105 degrees, which is very much fatal.

So PLEASE don't compare a snake to a human. We have one of the most complicated internal heat regulation systems of almost any mammal. Get a Thermostat and get those temps down pronto.

And as for the contact temps, snakes aren't thermostats. While they can recognize the difference between a colder and hotter side, they won't recognize that 105 degrees is too hot. They will simply see that one side is warmer than the other, and they want to be warm.

Just a quick note... 105 can be fatal for humans too (core temp) but at 110 degrees (not much difference) fatality would occur within minutes.

I was only using humans as an example of the ability of flesh to withstand a fairly modest *contact* temperature of 105. Body temps of 105 are another thing entirely. Despite the large differences between snakes and humans they are both not going to live at a body temp of 105 - a similarity.

So, my impression is that snakes can't feel if a particular contact point is too hot and so are easily burned when coming in contact with heat sources. However, they are capable of sensing overall body temperature which is why they "thermoregulate". If they couldn't do that then the whole idea of giving the snake a temperate gradient would make no sense, right? I can clearly see my snake go back and forth between the warm and cool hides at fairly regular intervals. Read a bit on maternal incubation and you'll see that they have a very good idea of the overall temperature.

But, I do agree that 105 is too high and am working on the temps right now. I don't want anybody to think I'm trying to argue that he should be roasting or anything. Eventually I'll get a t-stat but for now I'm thickening up the substrate on the warm side. He's been doing well in this setup for 5 or 6 months now so he can't be that bad off.

To make a long sad story short. A vet that claimed she was a exotics expert misdiagnosed it as a sistemic infection. She is still the only vet in town that does reptiles. Anyway she put him on 2 different antibiotics for a total of 9 weeks, and told me to max his temps. 105 was the hot spot. When it wasnt getting any better after more than two months I took him to a specialist in Las Vegas. The moment I took him out of the bag the Dr recognised it as a burn and admited him right away. After a week in the hospital it was just too much for the little guy and he died on feb 27 07. He was a special snake, he would snuggle like a cat, and like to be held. I miss him more than anything. It still kills me to think about how he suffered for so long because of bad vet treatment. All said and done I spent over 600 bucks on full treatment. A repti-temp 500R thermostat and a digital thermometer with a probe will cost you about 27 dollars total at reptile supply.com and your snake will safe and comfortable, well worth the price. :rockon:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bearhart

I was only using humans as an example of the ability of flesh to withstand a fairly modest *contact* temperature of 105. Body temps of 105 are another thing entirely. Despite the large differences between snakes and humans they are both not going to live at a body temp of 105 - a similarity.

---

Yes, a similarity. However, the point I was making was that what is dissimilar is that snakes have no way of internally regulating external temperatures.

Quote:

---

So, my impression is that snakes can't feel if a particular contact point is too hot and so are easily burned when coming in contact with heat sources. However, they are capable of sensing overall body temperature which is why they "thermoregulate". If they couldn't do that then the whole idea of giving the snake a temperate gradient would make no sense, right? I can clearly see my snake go back and forth between the warm and cool hides at fairly regular intervals. Read a bit on maternal incubation and you'll see that they have a very good idea of the overall temperature.

---

Once again, you are incorrect. Humans thermoregulate, snakes do not. Thermoregulation is the ability to keep the bodies temperature within certain boundaries, regardless of external heat. Humans do this through water... we release water through sweat glands, which in turns regulate internal core temperatures.

Snakes have nothing like this. While they can sense temperature gradients, they do not have the higher brain function to recognize "I'm going to get burned by laying here." That's why heat rocks are completely incompatible with snakes.

And clearly, you need to do some reading on maternal incubation. Balls and Carpets aren't capable of producing heat for egg incubation. You may be thinking of some breeds of pythons (like Burms) that are capable of increasing the heat of eggs by releasing (or conserving) moisture built by incubation. Balls don't do that.

Quote:

---

But, I do agree that 105 is too high and am working on the temps right now. I don't want anybody to think I'm trying to argue that he should be roasting or anything. Eventually I'll get a t-stat but for now I'm thickening up the substrate on the warm side. He's been doing well in this setup for 5 or 6 months now so he can't be that bad off.

---

And that's poor husbandry. Simply because something has worked for a few months doesn't mean you should continue doing it. Your enviornment i suncontrolled... increasing or decreasing substrate is NOT a replacement (for any length of time) to regulate temperatures. Spend $10 and at LEAST get a rheostat.

piling up the substrate is not a good option. first off snakes are pretty good burrowers, so just because you have 5 inches of aspen or whatever doesn't guarantee the snake is not going to get burned. the least you can do is get a lamp dimmer at lowes for $10.

check the classified adds in this forum and see if anyone has a used thermostat for sale cheap that you can use till you pick up a helix or a ranco.

I tried making the substrate thicker too, didnt work. These guys temps must be regulated in some way. Reostat or thermostat, its a must.

Please get a thermostat, or at least a rheostat. Keeping free access to 105 degree temps in your tank, is, (if you prefer human-to-snake comparisons) like providing free access to a loaded pistol in a toddler's bedroom.

Ok, well I've got the substrate piled up and the temps are down to mid 90's. (yea, i've read the stuff about why this isn't the best way but its a start...).

I work right by a Lowe's so I'll see if I can pick up a rheostat today.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by harfieldthethirsty

To make a long sad story short. A vet that claimed she was a exotics expert misdiagnosed it as a sistemic infection. She is still the only vet in town that does reptiles. Anyway she put him on 2 different antibiotics for a total of 9 weeks, and told me to max his temps. 105 was the hot spot. When it wasnt getting any better after more than two months I took him to a specialist in Las Vegas. The moment I took him out of the bag the Dr recognised it as a burn and admited him right away. After a week in the hospital it was just too much for the little guy and he died on feb 27 07. He was a special snake, he would snuggle like a cat, and like to be held. I miss him more than anything. It still kills me to think about how he suffered for so long because of bad vet treatment. All said and done I spent over 600 bucks on full treatment. A repti-temp 500R thermostat and a digital thermometer with a probe will cost you about 27 dollars total at reptile supply.com and your snake will safe and comfortable, well worth the price. :rockon:

---

My condolances. He sounds like an awesome snake. My little guy is pretty special himself so I'm going to make sure he stays around.

Dude, don't argue, just buy a rheostat! :D Thicker substrate may sound like a good idea, but if Mr. BP decides to go for a little dig..... :(

If you can't get around to buying a rheostat or thermostat anytime soon you could prop the tank up so that there is more space between the glass and the actual heating mat. This way not all the heat energy from the mat reaches the glass and the tank won't get as hot.

I've got him a rheostat and I'll be hooking it up here shortly.

I think I'll thin the substrate down again so that I'll be adjusting the hottest he can get to. He won't be able to really burrow down to something hotter then. He's really good about doing his business in other parts of the cage so I don't have to worry about having alot of absorbency there.

Sounds good! :) Remember, it can take a few hours for the rheostat to fully affect the temp, and if the room's temp rises, so will that of the heat pad.

I had some problems with the dimmers from home depot. On the near-highest level, I could not even get the pads to feel warm, let alone get to the proper temp. :/ Zoo-Med rheos are great, but temps in the room can never change and have to be the temperature you want the cool side to be. If temps go up and down, the rheostat is not going to adjust and can cause some high temps.

Yep, true dat. ;) I haven't had any issues with the zoo-med ones, I have them for both my corn and my BP's cages and have maintained proper temps. :)

Yea, the room temps shouldn't change much. I've got one from Lowe's. I tried it out on his heat lamp and it seemed to work pretty well so moved it over to his UTH.

I'm tweaking it now. I thinned his substrate back down and misted everything really good to cool it down and then I set the rheo on low. I'll creep it up over the evening.

So far so good. With the substrate thinned down to about 1/8"-1/4" and the dimmer turned all the way down I get about 93 degrees. If I turn it up to about 1/3 I get about 94/95.

good deal, glad to hear you got a dimmer. Should do the trick

Yea I'm still getting it tweaked. I have the probe from the Accurite right in the bedding. In fact, Snakey lays on it when he's in there. But I had it adjusted to about 93 degrees and when I went in there to check on him he had burrowed in so almost the whole hide was exposed glass. He never does that. I'm concerned that it might be too cold for him. Everybody gave me a hard time but I swear he's been really healthy for 6 months now. eating, growing, etc.

He had a fairly regular routine of hanging out in the hot hide for a while and then coming out to cool off. I had to push the temp to about 101 for him to do that after I got the rheostat. After that I backed it off to about 93. Now the temps are over 10 degrees lower then he's been living with ever since I got him and I'm worried that he might not be warm enough.

The accurite seems to work OK. I tested it by clamping the probe in my armpit for a while and I got just under 95d which seems reasonable.

Mid 90's is fine, Rheostats are not reliable and you should look into a thermostat and read up on correct husbandry. Vet bills are much more expensive than the themostat will ever be, trust me i've been there. Best of luck.

If you are on a budget I would go with thisThermostat: http://www.bigappleherp.com/BAH-1000...=2&category=15. I have used them in the past and they always seemed to work pretty well. I personally would never use a rheostat.

Those are great, if you like 10-degree temp swings, and the possibility of the thermostat getting stuck on high.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Those are great, if you like 10-degree temp swings, and the possibility of the thermostat getting stuck on high.

---

They worked fine for me. I never had more than a +/- 2 degrees swing. I used them for 2 years with no problems. I even know a someone who uses it on his incubator with no problems. I now use herpstats on everything but for $30 I think that tsat is way better than a reostat.

I dunno.. I'd probably trust those Zoomed 500R thermostats before I would trust one of those Big Apple ones again.. They do not stay consistent enough for me to warrant their use.

That's the scary thing about a thermostat system - certain failure cases can actually be far more dangerous than using an uncontrolled system (i.e. rheo). (This is true for any control system that uses feedback: They give you excellent control but failures can be far more extreme unless carefully guarded against. I may not be a snake expert but I do have a degree in electrical engineering so I know what I'm talking about). In fact, I would much prefer to get everything hammered out with the rheo before moving to a thermostat. If I'm not getting accurate temps and I hook up to a thermostat things could get really bad.

But, my problem right now has nothing to do with r-stat vs. t-stat. Temps are temps and it doesn't matter how it got there. I'm just wrestling with uncertainty (and perhaps nervousness) that my snake is happy when my thermometer says "93". I sanity-checked my thermometer so I think I really need to make sure my probe is securely placed. Right now I have the probe from the accurite anchored at the edge of the hide with about 1/2" of wire so that it extends away from the wall slightly but not so far that it could get really moved alot. But, the thing I don't like is that the probe-end itself just kind of lays on the bedding. I think most of the time he just lays on the probe and I'm getting a perfect "belly-temp" read out. But, there have been times when the temp readout has dropped and I think it might be due to it getting pushed up and resting on the side of my BP's body. I need some way to make it securely anchored but still free enough to kind of "float" on the substrate.

Hun, the only scary thing about this situation is when people use poor-quality thermostats and expect them to perform like a digital thermostat that has been tested for years upon years. Or.. When the under tank heater doesn't have ANY control on it... Your snake is at risk, unless that heat pad is regulated.

I used to use that above mentioned thermostat for about a month until I chunked it and used two dimmers. THEN I got a Herpstat 2 and never looked back. I still have it, as well as two Johnson Controls tstats and a Helix. Love them all and they do what they are supposed to do. Which is keep your snake safe from thermostat failure and temperature spikes.

Why do you feel that 93-94 isn't warm enough? Your snake only needs to get an internal body temp of around 85 to properly digest and be a happy snake. I keep my temps at 94.5 and 84.5, and all of mine eat every week and are growing like mad. You need to be confident that those temps are just fine and he's going to grow and be healthy, just like any other Ball Python.

This is why a reliable thermostat is very important to your snake's well-being. Even if your room temp doesn't fluctuate, that heating pad could easily spike and the dimmer wouldn't know. It just controls the amount of power the heat pad gets. If you are using a good thermostat(Johnson Controls, Ranco, Herpstat, Helix), then it will KNOW what temp that heat pad is, and if that heat pad spikes or temps go out of range, the thermostat will turn off(and will usually alert you).

Just some info, that I didn't know if you were aware of or not.

I definately recommend a Helix proportional t-stat. They might seem expensive, but I will never use anything else.. granted, my UTHs are on rheostats still, in a heat-controlled room.. but once the incubator is done with the Helix, it is going to the snakes. Best investment I ever made; I am obsessive-compulsive, and I cannot even leave the house wkile keeping my sanity when using something unreliable.

Well he seems to be happy with the new low-90's setup. He's burrowing way more than he used too but perhaps he was just used to cycling between hot and cold extremes. I'm going to give him some time to adjust. I did some research on African weather history and seeing what temperature fluctuations occur in their normal environment gave me a good basis on what to shoot for and showed me the range of temps they are built for so I don't need to fret.

Well I'll tell you from a purely technological perspective that a simple uncontrolled system is more reliable than a more complex one that uses sensors and feedback.

I'll give you a basic example. Its extreme but it helps get the idea across: Say we have a t-stat with a temp probe next to a happy warm snake at 92d (or whatever). Now, I take that probe and drop it in a glass of icewater. The t-stat will promptly do its best to cook the snake. This is because it registers a "way-low" measurement and attempts to correct by cranking up the heater. But, because the heater is not correctly affecting the measurement, it will never shut off.

On the other hand, an r-stat setup may fluctuate by 5d depending on room temp and whether or not the snake is in the hide. And, consider that ambient temperatures in their native habitat fluctuate by 10 to 15d daily. Even in a rodent burrow the temp will fluctuate by 5 degrees at least. And, of course, if the proble gets moved or broken the temperatures are not affected.

So, if you check the temps daily its actually less likely that something drastic will happen with an r-stat setup. Don't get me wrong, if you use a t-stat and its reliable then that's cool. I'm not trying to upset anybody. I'm only arguing that r-stat setups have their good points and, as long as the owner pays attention, they aren't "bad husbandry" IMO.

But, in the end I'm happy that everybody pushed me to get an r-stat. I like having it alot even if I don't see my snake any more :(. Then again, I just crank it up and he comes out after about 30 mins to cool off (just kidding!).

:taz:

Atleast get enough substrate over the uth heater to down the temp to about 95 or so.

oh yea I've got the dimmer working great now. I've been checking it daily and tweaking it. Its nice and stable and he can't get access to anything higher than 95. Just because I'm argumentative doesn't mean I don't listen! :D

whata happens when youre out all day? you can't be there to moniter the temps and your UTH spikes, then what? with a thermostat, atleast it will shut off the UTH and no harm will be done. but the rheostat won't do that, it'll keep giving the UTH power.

this is why i switched to a thermostat, my rheostat had too much change in temps and no safety if the UTH spiked. for someone that has one snake, yea a rheostat is nice and cheap, and you would check it more frequently. but people with more need a little more piece of mind.

Well mostly I was just pointing out the flaws in each approach. Both can fail.

* Uncontrolled systems will fluctuate more but there is not risk of drastic change if the probe fails or is moved.

* Controlled systems will deliver constants temps but, if the probe fails to accurately measure the temperature at the snake, they will subject your snake to incorrect temperatures.

Another way to look at this is that using a rheostat is like having a t-stat system where a human is doing the adjustments instead of a piece of electronics. The electronics will provide consistency and vigilance a human cannot but, if something goes wrong, a human is smart enough to take corrective action (i.e. "Hey, this can't be right...").


A simple heating element attached directly to an outlet (i.e. an UTH) is going to produce a constant amount of energy. It will be unlikely to actually "spike" in that sense. However, the measured temperature does change significantly because of the snake. I'm finding that its important to make adjustments only when the temperature is reading high. This is usually when the snake has been in for some time. The mistake is to freak out when you see the temperature at a low and adjust upwards. Then you come back later and go "Crap, its at 98d!!" and set it back down. Repeat.

_______________________________________________________________

I did a little research on African weather and I should post some of it. On one hand you can clearly see where the recommended hi/low temperatures come from. But, it also shows you what ranges there are. For example:

* For nearly 2/3 of the year the night-time temperatures drop to 75 or below.

* Day to day, the day-time highs fluctuate by 5 to 10 degrees.

* For only 3 to 5 months do daytime highs actually lie in the recommended hi-side temps. For the rest of the year they are higher or lower. For about 5 mos daytime highs are 97+. For 2-3 mos daytime highs are in the 80d to 90g range.

* For the majority of the year, the ambient temperature regularly changes by 15d to 20d over a 24 hour period.

What I took away from it all was that the husbandry recommendations were indeed correct but that posts from people saying things like "thermostats are cheaper than vets" and suggesting that I was killing my snake unless he is at 90-92 degrees all the time are totally off-base.

Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting anyone change their setup. All of this is just education for myself and anybody else who's interested.

Hi Bearhart,


You raised some good points about both the control systems and the african environment.

As someone who also has a qualification in electronics ( though only a stinky 2 year diploma :P ) I see your point but feel there are a few wrinkles to be smoothed out.

The heatmats can indeed spike but not in the way you think - some are prone to developing "hot spots" on their surface as they age or through damage though this should be seen as a rare event I think. This is similar but less common than the problem with heat rocks.

Some of the better thermostats also have a secondary protection built in to shutoff in the case of a failure in the primary electronics - primarily these trip if the output has been running at full for a set period of time or if the temp probe records a temp above a set variance. I think someone more familiar with these should jump in to give a better explanation as the only ones that do that over here (by microclimate I beleive) have several negative features so I never actually bought any.

You mention the snake affecting the readings but most people recomend placing the probe in an area where the snake will not be able to move or interfere with its operation like taped to the bottom of the UTH outside the tank altogether.

Onto the weather in Africa,:)

The first point is the ability to move within a much larger environment. Ball pythons seem to spend a large amount of time in termite mounds or rodent burrows which are known for stable temps whatever the outside temperatures are doing.

Thus while the range measured as ambient in the weather stations do indeed vary considerably they do not give an entirely accurate reflection of the temp range utilised by the animals who have the whole of the landscape as well as the aforementioned termite mounds etc. to thermoregulate with.

The second point is that you mention highs of 97f (which the animal can get away from) but a UTH uncontrolled can reach 110f or higher - and that's on my livingroom floor not a tank which may have another source of heating to raise ambients and thus compound the problem. I don't beleive in keeping the snake at 90-92 but I do believe its healthy for the animal to have access to a temperature range between 80-93f (approximately) at all times (except breeding) so that it can choose its own preferred temperature.

I don't believe it was anyones intention to Accuse you of trying to kill your snake but thermostats are cheaper than vets, varying the depth of the substrate isn't adequate prevention as the snake can move it back just as easily and it really was possible for your snake to get badly burnt.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but, while there are indeed different thoughts on keeping these animals, the people who tried to help weren't totally off-base.

If you have a tank large enough then feel free to provide the full temperature range experienced in africa - it will be one heck of a snake palace and the opportunities for tank design are breathtaking.

But no matter how large the tank I still feel you should never expose it to the temperatures your initial setup could concievably have allowed.

This post came off a little less polished than I intended and for that I freely appologise but in the interests of eductation and for those who may read this in the future I felt it was important to correct some of the points.

Remember I enjoy debate so feel free to tell me why I'm wrong.:D



dr del

Thanks for the reply Dr. Del! I'm not going to reply in full right this second but I'll get a couple of things out of the way.

Yea, I'll admit I was a bit irritated by a few of the posts. Some were not helping to develop a deeper discussion. In others, the poster clearly had read only the first few posts. Indeed, vets are more expensive than t-stats. And, however flippant some of the posts were, the intent was always genuinely positive and I can't fault anybody for that.

Also, I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to tell anybody that they are negligent because they are using a t-stat. In fact, I believe a controlled system with certain safety features is the best solution.

I'm an engineer by trade so I tend to love drilling down on issues. Its all because I love my snake and think everybody should chuck their cats and dogs out on the street and get one (just kidding!!). But, seriously, I do strongly believe that not over-stressing the importance of any particular point is as important as not under-stressing it. Why? Because it adds noise that drounds out the more important things and it makes the whole task of having a snake more demanding - and less popular. Snakes need awareness because, like it or not, they are still on humanities ****-list.

Well that was my er... quick reply. I'll post the techy stuff in a little bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bearhart

What I took away from it all was that the husbandry recommendations were indeed correct but that posts from people saying things like "thermostats are cheaper than vets" and suggesting that I was killing my snake unless he is at 90-92 degrees all the time are totally off-base.

---

I don't see anyone suggesting that. In fact, I think the only time anyone mentioned risk of death was when you said you had a UTH temp of 100+.

But a few notes on your research. I'm not really sure if you did your research on BP-specific countries or not, but here's a few points of interest related to the country most BPs are found.

The average low temperature in Accra, Ghana is right around 75 degrees. The average high is 88 degrees. The highest recording temp in Ghana since they started recording temps was 100 degrees. Otherwise the recorded high is not much higher than the average high.

As Del said, BPs can help regulate that by moving into rodent burrows and termite mounds. The earth is going to stay similar to the temps outside, but with less variation.

So, because they survive in the wild when the exterior temps are 75 is that what we should set ours at? Of course not. Remember, your African temps are misleading... in Africa they have thousands of square miles to travel to regulate temps, not to mention burrows, mounds etc. In the average rack they have 3 feet by 1/2 or so. So the temps you set them, is the ONLY temps they get, which is why we have to be a good deal more prudent in offering them the ideal temperatures, as far as we know.

Wow... good discussion on temps! honestly, its good everyone is looking into the details on real African temperatures, but these are hardy animals! and i'm sure every snake's preferred temps are different. just be reasonable, provide a gradient within a good range, and let the snake do what it likes.

Bearhart: if you're worried about the UTH not being adequate at your new temps, get an infrared spot for nighttime over the UTH, and a tight beam basking spot for the day. if you're getting a tight beam, just don't get one too strong. the combination should do well... I've personally put some smooth rocks in the cage to help harness the warmth of the lights/UTH. measure the temp of the rock in the basking spot if you really want to know how warm your snake's body will be.

I have my own question that can be added to the mix. I've just got a small 6x8 zoomed UTH to put underneath the second hide i just got him. I use a rheostat, as well as a digital thermometer to manually adjust temps.

people are talking about putting the probe where the snake is at, essentially touching the snake. personally, i have put my temperature probe right on the glass underneath all the substrate up against the UTH, and then adjusted the rheostat so that there is a constant temp of 95-97.

1. is this placement of temp probe a good bet for preventing burns, yet keeping substrate temps good for him in his warm-side-hide? substrate is about 2" thick. how high can you push the temps right against the glass??? my dude usually only burrows in the corners, but i don't want to risk anything.

2. Also, should I lower the temp of the UTH under his warm-side-hide at night, or just let him decide to go to the cool-side-hide?

my apologies for posting my own questions here, hope i don't hijack the thread.

Cheers.
BR

Yea, this is getting fun! Good replies all around and I don't really disagree with anything.

Thermometer placement: I attempt to place mine on the surface of the substrate so that the snake lays on it or right next to it. I accomplish this by anchoring the probe lead at the edge of the hide leaving only about 3/4" of slack. At this short length the wire is relatively stiff and it can't be pushed very far. My motivation if, of course, to attempt to get the most accurate reading of the snake's actual temperature.

There are a couple of issues with this. Firstly, if your snake has been out and is cooled down and then goes and lays on the probe the reading will dip for a while which can be disconcerting. Secondly, because it is so close to him if he burrows down he can sometimes push more substrate up under the probe which also will result in lower readings (lower than actual readings are what will cause you (or a t-stat) to jack the temperatures up too high).

I may try a slightly different configuration or I may just blow it off entirely because I can usually spot bad readings and I never adjust the rheo much at any one time.

So, like I mentioned above, the dangerous case is when you are reading a temperature that is actually lower than where your snake is. In an attempt to correct the erroneous reading, you (or a t-stat) will increase the power and subject the snake to a higher temp than you realize. Because of this I keep the substrate very thin (1/2" max) over the UTH. Before I got a rheostat I used to judge by placing my hand over the substrate and I found out very quickly that thickening the substrate brings the temperature down quite a bit. So, what you don't want to do is have alot of substrate and then measure on the surface. The reason is that the glass temperature will have to be much hotter to compensate for the insulating effect of the substrate. If your snake burrows then it could be subjected to extreme heat. However, if the substrate is thin then the surface temp and the glass temp are going to be within 5 degrees or so and burrowing poses less of a risk.

African Weather: I wasn't confident that I had selected a location that was ideal habitat so I went back using google earth and found a spot in ghana that appeared to better match the description of where balls are found. Indeed, the weather was more temperate at this location than my first try. Descriptions of ball python territory suggest their area is very large so this could also suggest that they can handle a wider range of temperatures. Anyway, my new selection showed daytime highs ranging from 90-93 in the summer and 80-85 in the winter (sound familiar?). However, they also showed night-time temps between 70 and 75 all year.

What does it mean? Well as Dr. Del pointed out, I am reporting ambient temperatures and snake hang out in burrows and do other things to control their body temperature. Likewise, I know my snake has come in contact with 105d surfaces for significant periods of time. (I wouldn't recommend doing this on purpose - I know I won't be). But, when his hide was very hot he would cycle between it and a cold spot and it was clear he was "thermoregulating".

You'll see, if you read the earlier parts of this thread, there were some comments about a snakes inability to sense its body temperature that I believe were incorrect. I think a snake can't sense if he's getting burned on the surface but I also think it can very accurately tell what its body temperature is. I think all the data backs this up.

So here's what I think (drum roll please)...

I think that the core problem is that the snake will ignore body temp concerns if it feels too insecure. This is how mine flourished for several months with a hide between 95 and 105 and yet there is a very sad story on this same thread about a similar case that was fatal.

I have some theories on how the husbandry recommendations could be improved but they're still in the formative stages...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spudz11

Wow... good discussion on temps! honestly, its good everyone is looking into the details on real African temperatures, but these are hardy animals! and i'm sure every snake's preferred temps are different. just be reasonable, provide a gradient within a good range, and let the snake do what it likes.

---

Yea, I swear my BP likes it hot. Ever since I've backed the temperatures down he almost always burrows right to the glass. I'm still fiddling with it but part of me really feels that to really give him the full temperature range to work with the hottest point actually needs to be just a bit TOO hot for him to stay in all the time. I suppose a real-world example would be a rock or other surface in direct sunlight that a ball may use for basking. They stay there for a bit but not for extended periods...

Also, I'd like to point out that I'm not doing all this to cause trouble or for competitive reasons. I'm doing this because of how frusterating my experience was as a new BP owner. There are so many different tips and everybody assigns a different importance to each of them. I don't like discrepancies - especially when it comes to my Snakey. :taz:

You can get alot of high quality information off of this site but what concerns me are all the people who buy snakes every day and, for practical reasons, simply can't be educated to this level right there in the pet store. So, what I'm really searching for are the real fundamental points. The 60-second version of ball python care, so to speak. This is why this particular issue is so interesting. Because its complicated and what alot of people here consider "essential" is nowhere near the average setup you walk out of the pet store with. So I wonder, how essential is it? Or are these just a bunch of hard-core types that have standards that are not applicable to your more casual owner? Or, are these things essential but are there ways to address them that are cheaper and less complicated?