whats wrong with these guys?

here at the refuge,we have 2 land turtles here (boxes maybe?) that both are having similar problems. if only 1 was having it, ide think it was a problem that was limited to only that one. but now it looks like its catching on. is the shell turning this way because of a deficiency of some sort? maybe because of no uvb light? no heat lamps? have yall seen this stuff before? if i can get help here, i can come to the owner and ask him if we can either let them go because of this, or re-do their living conditions. thanks

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1...a/HPIM1587.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1...a/HPIM1586.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1...a/HPIM1585.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1...a/HPIM1584.jpg

looks like they are water turtles i'm not sure...........but if they are they need uvb, and a basking rock to get out of the water and dry out....if they are wet all the time they will get soft shell..........

good luck with them

If they are kept in the size of the tubs in the pictures all the time I would furious that this place calls itself a "refuge". If I'm way off...and I have been before...GOOD.

Quote:

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Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD): This is a condition that is the direct result of poor husbandry. It results from the effects of poor diet, poor or no uvb, lack of Vitamin D, and poor calcium to phosphorus ratio. Pyramiding is a form of MBD which research shows is the result of all of the above and lack of humidity and exercise. If the onset of MBD begins when a turtle is young, it will develop obvious deformities. Tortoises will show raised or stacked scutes on the carapace, overgrown, duck or parrot like beak and the nails will grow oddly curved out and upward. They will have splayed legs and have difficulty walking upright. Many are forced to drag their hind legs because of this difficulty.

Turtles often show early signs of MBD by their shells growing curved upward, some looking like a saddled shape. They will appear to be thickened. Box turtles will not have a working hinge, but rather have it frozen in place. Some will show signs of resorption where you will no longer see a tail because the body is trying to get the calcium from the bones. Often the turtle’s legs will be thin and deformed. As with tortoises the beak will also become duck or parrot shaped. Water turtles will usually show raised scutes, some actually also pyramiding as with tortoises. Their shells will also become serrated even if they are a species that normally has a rounded shell.

To avoid MBD it’s important to provide a nutritional diet with proper calcium and vitamin d, give proper uvb lighting (natural sun is best), plenty of exercise and humidity in the case of land turtles. Providing a cuttlebone in addition to good diet is a good way to let your turtle supplement itself with added calcium.

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Reference taken from: http://www.turtlerescues.com/common_health_problems.htm

Since they both have it id say its a problem with nutrition and lighting.

thats what it is. MBD. im gonna tell him that we need to do something asap.

and yes, there tubs are that size, some smaller.

i dont get it either. im doing all i can...trust me. but im gonna lat him know monday when i go in. thanks so much for the help

Good God. That is an example of exceptionally poor husbandry and downright neglect. They look to be 3toed boxies (not aquatics) with a bad case of MBD due to the reasons listed above.

Okay... I'm really not trying to sound mean here, but are you 100% sure that you are working for an animal refuge and not an animal hoarder? I've read and seen a lot of the pictures and post you have posted about this place and I can't tell you how many alarms are going off about this place that is very very VERY far away from someone who is actually looking to care, give these animals a better, proper home.

Animal hoarders are known to take in any kind of animal, in any kind of condition and say they "rescued" it. They don't know or don't want to admit that what they are doing is wrong. They also keep their animals in whatever they can put them or keep them in... in most cases in very bad and wrong set up's. I know in your heart you are trying your best to help this place out but I'd really question them since all of the before pictures of the animals are in pretty bad shape and their husbandry is way off.

Do these people have any kind of paper work saying they are in fact a legal animal refuge?

yea ive seen paperwork sayin they are a "refuge".

we are having an inspection anytime from now until june 15th. i PRAY that we FAIL IT with flying colors. turns out the owner has had SEVERAL complaints from the inspectors and been written up for keeping animals that never needed to be kept more than a few days, or keeping them AFTER they were completely healed and ready for release.

i showed the owner the box turtle in the pics. i said "he has MBD, and so does this one and this one and this one. see their tails and how they are about to break off? they are going to die if we dont get uvb light on them asap. do you want me to build something for the lights to sit on" (we have over 20uvb lights in the back THAT ARENT IN USE AND IN WORKING ORDER!!!!!!) i cant, nor can anyone else change their conditions without his approval. He said to me "well, this guy was like this before we got him", and changed the subject and walked away.

i dont know what to do. i am losing sleep over this place. it makes me sick, and sad- a dream job has really opened my eyes to how people treat animals.


i was offered by a forum member to have PROFESSIONAL RACKS WITH FLEXWATT built and delivered FOR FREE to help out the 40+ snakes we have. the forum member, kellysballs, sent me pics of what they would build for us. i printed out the pics and brought them in cause i was SO HAPPY i was offered $700+ racks for FREE. i showed them to the owner-HE DECLINED IT! saying that he was getting rid of most of them, and the ones that we are keeping for "his collection" he wants to keep in aquariums to "show them off"!!!!!!!



i am SERIOUSLY considering calling whoever is goung to inspect this place and telling them all of whats going on- the fact that 90% of our turtles are ready for release (or WERE until we got ahold of them), the fact that snakes dont get fed but maybe once a month, the fact that not one snake/lizard/turtle/tortoise gets any heat or uvb!! i dont know what to do anymore.


sorry for the rant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NotAnotherHonda

yea ive seen paperwork sayin they are a "refuge".

we are having an inspection anytime from now until june 15th. i PRAY that we FAIL IT with flying colors. turns out the owner has had SEVERAL complaints from the inspectors and been written up for keeping animals that never needed to be kept more than a few days, or keeping them AFTER they were completely healed and ready for release.

i showed the owner the box turtle in the pics. i said "he has MBD, and so does this one and this one and this one. see their tails and how they are about to break off? they are going to die if we dont get uvb light on them asap. do you want me to build something for the lights to sit on" (we have over 20uvb lights in the back THAT ARENT IN USE AND IN WORKING ORDER!!!!!!) i cant, nor can anyone else change their conditions without his approval. He said to me "well, this guy was like this before we got him", and changed the subject and walked away.

i dont know what to do. i am losing sleep over this place. it makes me sick, and sad- a dream job has really opened my eyes to how people treat animals.


i was offered by a forum member to have PROFESSIONAL RACKS WITH FLEXWATT built and delivered FOR FREE to help out the 40+ snakes we have. the forum member, kellysballs, sent me pics of what they would build for us. i printed out the pics and brought them in cause i was SO HAPPY i was offered $700+ racks for FREE. i showed them to the owner-HE DECLINED IT! saying that he was getting rid of most of them, and the ones that we are keeping for "his collection" he wants to keep in aquariums to "show them off"!!!!!!!



i am SERIOUSLY considering calling whoever is goung to inspect this place and telling them all of whats going on- the fact that 90% of our turtles are ready for release (or WERE until we got ahold of them), the fact that snakes dont get fed but maybe once a month, the fact that not one snake/lizard/turtle/tortoise gets any heat or uvb!! i dont know what to do anymore.


sorry for the rant.

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Dude that is awful.

I would call someone ASAP if he is not going to do anything. Sounds like this guy has a serious pride issue.

I don't get that kind of thinking and am very troubled by what you just told me...good luck and keep us posted we are rootin for ya.


Mike

You have to do what's in your heart. If you know the animals are in need of real "rescue". contact whoever necessary. It may make you uncomfortable, but it is their lives. I'm sure even if this place were closed down you will find a way to help animals elsewhere. Bad husbandry should not be tolerated. I would rather see an animal put down than suffering. If you are afraid of what will becomeof the animals, ask animal control if they will be adopted out. But keep in mind, don't let your fear keep you from reporting it. Some of the animals may be put down due to bad health, but if not reported the abuse may effect hundreds more. If it's abuse, stop it in its' tracks.

thank you for the advice. we'll see how it goes with the inspections. cross the fingers for failure.

Take action and report it. Also jot down notes of all you have seen and the conversations you recall. If you are ever called as a witness to a case you want facts, not what you maybe remember.Every day you wait could cost another life. Don't mean to sound harsh, it's just a reality.You may not make any friends there, but the ones who can't speak for themselves willbe grateful.

Keep us posted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blu Mongoose

Take action and report it. Also jot down notes of all you have seen and the conversations you recall. If you are ever called as a witness to a case you want facts, not what you maybe remember.Every day you wait could cost another life. Don't mean to sound harsh, it's just a reality.You may not make any friends there, but the ones who can't speak for themselves willbe grateful.

Keep us posted.

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Very good call. Awesome post.



Mike

the problem is...

this is an internship/direct individual study for school. its my LAST class that i MUST HAVE in order to get my degree from FSU. if i get fired or this place goes under for any reason, i fail the class and wont graduate in august, and will have to stay another semester for another class.

It's your call. That call could be a hard one. Good luck.

Maybe explain things to the dean. Sometimes doing the right thing can be worked out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blu Mongoose

Maybe explain things to the dean. Sometimes doing the right thing can be worked out.

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I agree

I was really hoping that you'd be able to do some great things at that place but once you started saying the owner didn't want things to change it was clear that he is a hoarder.

I'd suggest contacting as many people as you can and letting them know what exactly is going on at this place. The more rescues/shelters/whatever that know about it the better. Those animals need to be taken somewhere that they can actually get help. If you know who is doing the inspection I'd call them and let them know how concerned you are and maybe they can get there quicker.

thanks guys. im just gonna gave to keep asking him and asking him about BASIC needs like uvb and FOOD until he lets me do them myself. he says he hasnt fed the snakes or released the turtles cause "hes too busy".


im tired of :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:ing and waking up thinking of nothing but this place. sorry

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NotAnotherHonda

the problem is...

this is an internship/direct individual study for school. its my LAST class that i MUST HAVE in order to get my degree from FSU. if i get fired or this place goes under for any reason, i fail the class and wont graduate in august, and will have to stay another semester for another class.

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Your school has the students go to this "place" to learn?:O Are they aware of the POOR conditions these reptiles are kept in? If so they need to be smacked in the back of the head:mad: .What are you learning? As i see it your learning the WRONG lessons attending this place.Now this is not a slam towards you by no means ;) .I say turn these people in and do every living creature there a favor!

i think you need to talk to a dean about how far below standard this place is, and then you need to call the permitting people, and the ASPCA, or whoever, and get something done about this. take lots of pictures to document what's going on in just in case, but something needs to be done, i agree with what has been said so far, and that you should do something. if you're afraid of this guy somehow retaliating, there are ways that you can tell people anonymously. either way, something must be done, that's just awful, i'd lose sleep too.

I completely agree with qiksilver!


Please keep us updated on how everything turns out on the inspection.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1...a/HPIM1684.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1...a/HPIM1685.jpg

this RES has hugeley swollen ears it looks like. i cant identify the problem...can you guys help? he has a great attitude and a nice appetite which is rare around there

maybe he had mbd as well, but his shell isnt showing the usual signs?


EDIT. does this sound like its the problem?

Ear Abscesses: These are most common in box turtles. They appear as large bulges on either side of the head, where their ears are. The Tympanic membrane swells and a cyst develop will under it. As the infection worsens so does the cyst. If your turtle develops an abscess it is essential to have a veterinarian examine the turtle and determine if aspiration or lancing of the membrane is necessary. Most often antibiotics will also be given to the turtle to kill off any infection. Some vets will send an aspirated culture to a lab for sensitivity testing. Others will surgically remove the cyst and have that tested, or may just treat with a broad-spectrum antibiotic. An abscess is very painful and should never be treated without veterinary supervision.

either that or megalocephali (think thats what it is called, i know thats not how its spelled) but to me to looks more like an absess or something. Imagine an ear infection making yout head swell!


~mike

My tortoise looked like that due to an infection and a vitamin deficeincy. Cost me 165.00 to have it cleared up.See article "Update on Daisy". We found her at a feed store in that condition. She's great now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

i think you need to talk to a dean about how far below standard this place is, and then you need to call the permitting people, and the ASPCA, or whoever, and get something done about this. take lots of pictures to document what's going on in just in case, but something needs to be done, i agree with what has been said so far, and that you should do something. if you're afraid of this guy somehow retaliating, there are ways that you can tell people anonymously. either way, something must be done, that's just awful, i'd lose sleep too.

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True...and WRITE everything down...Do U still have receipts for the supplies YOU bought?? Dates, times, quotes....

and the pictures you've posted HERE would be good strong evidence as to the befores and afters of what that creepy owner is doing, and FAILING to do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blu Mongoose

My tortoise looked like that due to an infection and a vitamin deficeincy. Cost me 165.00 to have it cleared up.See article "Update on Daisy". We found her at a feed store in that condition. She's great now.

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really? she looked like the one here? oh man. so this is once again caused by no uvb light you think?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NotAnotherHonda

really? she looked like the one here? oh man. so this is once again caused by no uvb light you think?

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The place we got her from had no lights at all on her and a terrible diet. He claimed he got her like that, but thanks to a good vet she is doing great now.

Mike you need to do what will sit right with you morally. This work/study issue needs to be brought directly to your dean. Take a file of your photo's and set up an appointment. Explain your concerns in detail. Perhaps a compromise where you get credit for the work time there (you certainly went WELL beyond a normal student/intern workload) and the rest for a paper on proper husbandry and what a good rescue should be providing versus what this one is. Be honest with your dean and lay it all out, I don't see how you should be punished for this mess! Heck invite you dean to drop in to the rescue unannounced for a "visit", might open the dean's eyes to this situation.

I too have been concerned all along that this may be more of a hoarding situation than a rescue as the conditions are quite horrible from what your pictures have shown. Considering that the owner seems unaware of proper husbandry, is refusing free and appropriate caging, allowing you to spend your cash and time when he should be doing this....I'd be hard pressed to not blow the whistle on him myself. Keep good records Mike, you may want to turn them over to the proper authorities at some future point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NotAnotherHonda

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1...a/HPIM1684.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1...a/HPIM1685.jpg

this RES has hugeley swollen ears it looks like. i cant identify the problem...can you guys help? he has a great attitude and a nice appetite which is rare around there

maybe he had mbd as well, but his shell isnt showing the usual signs?


EDIT. does this sound like its the problem?

Ear Abscesses: These are most common in box turtles. They appear as large bulges on either side of the head, where their ears are. The Tympanic membrane swells and a cyst develop will under it. As the infection worsens so does the cyst. If your turtle develops an abscess it is essential to have a veterinarian examine the turtle and determine if aspiration or lancing of the membrane is necessary. Most often antibiotics will also be given to the turtle to kill off any infection. Some vets will send an aspirated culture to a lab for sensitivity testing. Others will surgically remove the cyst and have that tested, or may just treat with a broad-spectrum antibiotic. An abscess is very painful and should never be treated without veterinary supervision.

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Yes that is exactly the problem!
Ear abscess: Swelling on the side of the head

Causes: poor water quality

Treatment: Veterinary attention, possible surgery

My friend just rescued a turtle like that. I hope this info helps alittle!

Here is a good site to look up more info on this: Red-eared Slider Site

Thats really too bad about all those turtles and even the other animals there. Well hopefully the inspection fails, i read the other forums about this place and i don't see how it couldn't unless the inspectors were blind!

Any updates? Did the inspection fail?

nothin yet guys. ive had tests these last few weeks so i havent had time to take pics and upload/post them. sorry.

ill be back in the grind next week, stay tuned.

oh, and my names tommy, not mike ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Your school has the students go to this "place" to learn?:O Are they aware of the POOR conditions these reptiles are kept in? If so they need to be smacked in the back of the head:mad: .What are you learning? As i see it your learning the WRONG lessons attending this place.Now this is not a slam towards you by no means ;) .I say turn these people in and do every living creature there a favor!

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Tommy, did your school refer you to this place? If so, you need to talk to someone about doing a better job screening potential internships so this place doesn't get interns in the future.

Joe, in terms of what Tommy's learning, I think he's getting a very good lesson . . . in what not to do. I'll bet he remembers this place all his life and does everything he can to make sure others don't call themselves a rescue when they aren't.

Tommy, please let us know what happended with the inspectors. Our Florida Fish and Wildlife Officers down here in Orlando wouldn't let a place with conditions like that stay open for another hour. Maybe a word in someone's ear down here would keep you out of the direct line of fire up there - just let me know. Stay strong!

How are the little turtles that you posted about? Has anything happened yet?

the small turtle with the really bad MBD got adopted, but i dont know by who. i hope by someone who knows how bad he was.

we passed inspection. the only thing we got cited for was "keeping animals for longer than need be"


apparently its ok to keep reptiles/amphibians in such conditions

:eek: What?! You gotta be kidding. Seriously someone needs to call tha ASPCA or something cause that is not right to keep let alone rescue reptiles in those unfit conditions. This is truely sad!!