How to assist feed properly?

I KNOW this baby snake has never eaten, and I know it is at least 3 weeks old, Im tired of waiting, he seems a little skinnier, I tried live pinky mice, live pink rat, and ft hoppers, in cage and not.

I got a live rat in his cage from last night. He seemed so interested at first, and kinda would twitch I guess when the mouse moved like he was gonna bite or at least as if he was excited. Guess not.

Im wondering if I should hold the snake and where, and how far to put the mouse in, like until the mouse is at his throat so basicly just the mouses head, or just barely at all, just enough to get it in with his mouth open which seems the most logical. I know to use Q tips to get mouth open, but will the snake fight me? Mine seems laid back for the most part.

I was also wondering if feeding this live pink rat is ok durring an assist feed so he gets the idea of eating live mice to help him get started? Or if I plan on going to FT should I try a FT hopper?

Have you taken the snake to a vet?

Live hopper, at night, leave it for about 30 minutes. And leave the room...

I would set this baby up in a TINY tub, 6qt shoebox, set at 94/84. 4" clay saucer for a hide and a small waterbowl, on newspaper. Leave for a week in a dark, quiet place. I set mine up this way(53g at start), and she's fed 4 times on live hopper mice. Already, she's a 90g hissy little sausage.

Thats what i was going to say, you should take it to a vet, find a good herp vet that should be able to answer your questions and evaluate your snake better than anyone can over the internet

3 weeks is not even close to long enough to wait before attempting an assist feed ... you'll end up doing more harm than good.

Try a live hopper mouse in the cage with some crumpled up newspaper over night ... and stop messing with him. ;)

Here's a link to an article that I wrote for my website a few years ago ... it might help as well.

http://www.8ballpythons.com/journal/...ingseating.htm

Good luck ... and remember, assist feeding is a last resort ... not something that should be attempted because you don't feel like waiting any longer.

Hope this helps.

-adam

I have tried all of the stuff you guys have mentioned. For all I know this thing could be 7 weeks old, and I have never seen a BP this skinny online, for a baby anyway.

I dont have the $ to take it to a vet, not even sure there is a herp around here.

I left a rat pink with it, and no luck....... last night

I dont want to find this thing dead tomorrow cause it ended up going 9 weeks with no food, cause I got it from a pet store who could care less how old they are or if theyve even eaten when they recieve them.

It looks like I am gonna have to try a deli cup but I honestly have no idea what that is. Can you post a picture of one or link me to one?

But I am afraid of that, cause I just dont know how old this thing is.

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Originally Posted by whyteboi

I dont have the $ to take it to a vet, not even sure there is a herp around here.

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I really don't know what to tell you other than that you should've thought more about the costs of owning a BP before you bought one. :(

Have you left it alone in a tub with all your husbandry correct for a week yet. If you have than keep trying a little longer. Also maybe you can have your mom borrow you the money to go the vet and pay her back with payments or something. If not maybe you should find an experienced owner to take the snake off of your hands.

Also if you've really tried all the things people here have suggested in the past week chances are you've been stressing it alot trying to feed it everyday.

Force-feeding should only be done as a last resort.

Did you made all the necessary changes that were suggested to you and that you seemed to be very reluctant to make in this post http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47186&page=1&pp=10

Did you switch him to a 6 quarts tub with 2 tight identical hides, water dish, UTH and thermostat?

Do you offer temps gradients of 80-84 on the cool side and 90-94 on the warm side?

Did you get a digital thermometer/hydrometer?

why don't you take advice? listen to adam i'm pretty sure he might know a thing or two about ball pythons... maybe just a little. but honestly, stop messin with the poor thing, you're fussing over it like crazy. i have a snake that hasn't eaten since september, no big deal, he's fine. just leave him be for a little (like a week or two ) and then worry about it. a yolk is a marvellous thing because it leaves them full for a while. stop stressing him and he'll be fine, i wouldn't eat if some big creature always stood around prodding me. i know you mean well, but it's just a baby, it's scared, let it relax a bit.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Good luck ... and remember, assist feeding is a last resort ... not something that should be attempted because you don't feel like waiting any longer.



-adam

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Thank you Adam i could have not said it any better :cool: .

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Originally Posted by whyteboi

I have tried all of the stuff you guys have mentioned. For all I know this thing could be 7 weeks old, and I have never seen a BP this skinny online, for a baby anyway.

I dont have the $ to take it to a vet, not even sure there is a herp around here.

I left a rat pink with it, and no luck....... last night

I dont want to find this thing dead tomorrow cause it ended up going 9 weeks with no food, cause I got it from a pet store who could care less how old they are or if theyve even eaten when they recieve them.

It looks like I am gonna have to try a deli cup but I honestly have no idea what that is. Can you post a picture of one or link me to one?

But I am afraid of that, cause I just dont know how old this thing is.

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Well the reasons you NORMALY do not see skinny snakes for sell online is Majority of those people properly care for thier snakes.Sorry to tell you this but WHENEVER you bring any living animal into your home you need $$$ for medical reasons or whatever may come about.Now you "should" research for a REAL reptile vet before you buy a reptile.You have to be patiant with ball pythons as they are VERY easily stressed out and will refuse to eat.It sounds like to me your constant trying this and that to get your snake to eat is the reasons he is not eating.Please LEAVE your snake TOTALY alone for 7 days and then try to see if it wants to eat.Now by TOTALY alone it means no picking him up,no moving his enclosure or etc.I know you are young but unless you listen to others here and actually follow thier advice sadly your snake will suffer and more then likely die.I hope the latter does not come about.

I try to feed it every 7 days. My temps are fine like 91/81 and 55 humididty using all digital stuff, two identical hides, ect. I never handle him either. Im not an idiot, I got yelled at this board for 11 pages, so I know what I am doing

Btw I am not the one with no money, my mom is the one with no money.

Your baby is probably more likely to die from an inexperienced force-feeding than a hunger strike. Talk to your parents/relatives, and get the cash to go to the vet. Hell, call the vet and find out how much the visit is, and see if they can put you on a payment plan.

I just saw your post above. If you have no money to provide for your pets health that is VERY irresponsible. No one on this forum is trying to yell at you, but you really don't seem prepared to take this on...

If your husbandry is spot on, then it's a possibility that the snake has internal parasites, which has to be diagnosed and treated by a vet.

Here's a picture of a skinny snake, since you haven't seen any here:
http://sarah.digeratihost.com/images/qtipem.JPG

She weighed 48g, was treated by a vet, and I was taught how to tube feed her. She also had acidolpholus in order to get her system ready to process mice. I assist fed her pinkie mice a few times, and she finally started eating on her own. She is very healthy today.

All of that was accomplished by actually listening to and taking the advice I got on this forum.

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Originally Posted by whyteboi

I got yelled at this board for 11 pages, so I know what I am doing

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You were not yelled at, people pointing out issues several times because of the fact that you did not seemed to be willing to make changes (big difference).

I am glad you decided to make those changes however you still need to be patient, and not try force feeding your BP.

Did you wait a full week at least after making all those changes to give your BP time to settle?

Do you have a pic of your new setup?

Yes I allowed time, I wait 7 days for everything, pics cant come, since my sister broke her camera, and my 3.3 megapixel camera phone cant send stuff to my email for some reason..... :(

If worst comes to worse, I will just try and exchange and get a new snake at the pet store, they might understand.

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Originally Posted by whyteboi

Yes I allowed time, I wait 7 days for everything, pics cant come, since my sister broke her camera, and my 3.3 megapixel camera phone cant send stuff to my email for some reason..... :(

If worst comes to worse, I will just try and exchange and get a new snake at the pet store, they might understand.

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You can't just get a new snake and hope it will tolerate your husbandry better than this one. You need to just leave it in a secluded place with the proper setup and climate, and offer it a small live meal, overnight, every 7 days. If it doesn't take it within 2 weeks, take a fresh fecal sample to a vet. It's only like $25 for a float/smear to diagnose internal parasites. If you follow Adam's advice to a T, there's nothing more for you to worry about. If you want to be worked up about it and do things the wrong way and endanger your snake, just ignore the help you have been offered here.

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Originally Posted by whyteboi

I try to feed it every 7 days. My temps are fine like 91/81 and 55 humididty using all digital stuff, two identical hides, ect. I never handle him either. Im not an idiot, I got yelled at this board for 11 pages, so I know what I am doing

Btw I am not the one with no money, my mom is the one with no money.

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Ok i have a question for you.If your profile is correct it says you are 17yrs old is that your correct age? If so then why are you waiting or expecting others(mom in your case) to fork up some cash to help YOUR snake? I thought you were a younger KID but lets be for real here.Sorry those 11 pages you say you were yelled at here must have been a waste of time and web site space.I say this because YOU MUST NOT HAVE UNDERSTOOD A SINGLE WORD that was typed in that thread.YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING POINT BLANK!! If you did your snake would be eating and you would not be ready to kill it by stuffing something down its throat.Where did you get the money to buy this poor snake? Go mow someones grass or something to get some cash if you really care about your snake.Its YOUR snake not your MOTHERS!

My last snake had one hide, one day light bulb, about 30% humidity, and a mixture of bark/ fake moss substrate, and that thing would eat for me, so Im just thinking its the fact I have a baby, and I have alot better setup now.

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Originally Posted by whyteboi

My last snake had one hide, one day light bulb, about 30% humidity, and a mixture of bark/ fake moss substrate, and that thing would eat for me, so Im just thinking its the fact I have a baby, and I have alot better setup now.

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What type of snake was this last one? No its not because its a baby nor your "better" setup thats causing this snake to not eat.

A ball, and about 8 inches longer

chalk it up to you got lucky and had a great feeder. you really are resistant to change, and you keep blaming everything else but yourself. you need to step back and think about what you might be doing wrong, and what you can do better, then you're snake will be fine.(unless there's something actually wrong with it that is)

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Originally Posted by whyteboi

A ball, and about 8 inches longer

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So what happened to that one?? You still got it??

My dad no longer wanted to get mice for it, and I was only 13 then.

I'm just starting to think it's a joke...

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Ok i have a question for you.If your profile is correct it says you are 17yrs old is that your correct age? If so then why are you waiting or expecting others(mom in your case) to fork up some cash to help YOUR snake? I thought you were a younger KID but lets be for real here.Sorry those 11 pages you say you were yelled at here must have been a waste of time and web site space.I say this because YOU MUST NOT HAVE UNDERSTOOD A SINGLE WORD that was typed in that thread.YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING POINT BLANK!! If you did your snake would be eating and you would not be ready to kill it by stuffing something down its throat.Where did you get the money to buy this poor snake? Go mow someones grass or something to get some cash if you really care about your snake.Its YOUR snake not your MOTHERS!

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Could you please respond to this posting of mine?

well I am confused because in a previous thread you posted...

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Originally Posted by whyteboi

Well I found urine and urate in my cage again, so Im guessing thats a good sign?

He seems happier

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and the in this thread you posted...

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Originally Posted by whyteboi

I dont want to find this thing dead tomorrow cause it ended up going 9 weeks with no food.

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first you said you found urine and urates in your cage again...then you say it could have been 9 weeks with no food.

uhmmm....if he is uratating and urinating then he has obviously consumed something!


and when you said again that means you have seen it before???

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

well I am confused because in a previous thread you posted...





and the in this thread you posted...






first you said you found urine and urates in your cage again...then you say it could have been 9 weeks with no food.

uhmmm....if he is uratating and urinating then he has obviously consumed something!


and when you said again that means you have seen it before???

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Well i think this sums it all up :rolleyes: .I missed these postings so thanks for bringing it to our attention.

When he said -
I dont want to find this thing dead tomorrow cause it ended up going 9 weeks with no food.

He was saying that he doesn't know how long the snake was at the pet store before he got it - he has had it for 3 weeks, and who knows if its been at the pet store for 1 week or 6 weeks, with no food.

Whtyeboi - if you sincerly have gotten the proper setup described to you by the members of this forum, and have honestly and truely been leaving the snake alone for 7 days at a clip and trying to feed, then :sweeet: I applaude you.

Assuming that the above is true, I would wait another week ... and during this week call vets and save up some money to take this thing to one. Coming from god-knows where, it's quite possible that your snake has some sort of parasite or some other ailement keeping it from eating. Getting a professional opinion at this point would be the best thing for you and your snake. ;) If you are unwilling to do this, then find someone extremely experienced around you to take it for you so it doesn't die - Please - because it quite possibly will.

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Originally Posted by adizziedoll

When he said -
I dont want to find this thing dead tomorrow cause it ended up going 9 weeks with no food.

He was saying that he doesn't know how long the snake was at the pet store before he got it - he has had it for 3 weeks, and who knows if its been at the pet store for 1 week or 6 weeks, with no food.

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I undersand what you are saying but,

according to him...

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Originally Posted by whyteboi

This thing is a BABY. Im guessing under 1 week old. The shop got him on thursday, which is 4 days ago.

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on 5/21 he said it urated again....meaning it has done it before with him...in the 3 weeks total that he has had him? So it has only been a little over a week ago that this happened.

I think his facts are just a little off.

on a side note...i would like to know what the weight is of this bp and what his set up looks like.

in that same thread from 10 days ago that he was working on getting his set up corected. If he got it set up correctly then he has not given the bp enough time to adjust. since he did not have the money to go to the store till that friday which would have been the 25th.

all of this can cause undue stress.

imo he is just way too eager to assist feed.

Meme....urates and urine don't necessarily indicate that food has been consumed. Those can come from water consumption. Means it's safe to assume the snake is properly hydrated...but does not mean that the snake has eaten at some point in its past.


I agree with Ginger's last post. If Whyteboi has gotten the enclosure properly set up and is truly waiting 7 days between feeding attempts without messing with the snake in the meantime...then he's doing fine. All he needs is more patience. Not more scolding.

Try filling the enclosure with loosely crumpled newspaper and then just leave it alone for a week....and then leave a live rat pink or fuzzy mouse in there overnight. If he doesn't eat...just wait a week and try again. And in the meantime, do as Ginger suggests...research herp vets in your area and find out how much money you need to earn to get your little guy checked out.

I understand your anxiety about watching it starve to death...but these snakes are far hardier than you realize. Patience is the key when dealing with ball pythons.

I do understand what urates are....my point is that he has said he has had it for aprox 3 weeks now ndd that it was (what he believes) less than a week old when he bought it. How has he had time, in 3 weeks to give the bp time to adjust...with the proper set up (when he just fixed it a week ago)...and have seen 2 urates.

if he has only had it for 3 weeks how can he have tried every method of feeding (as he said). If he has tried all those different methods of feeding then I have to ask how when he said he is only offering every 7 days.

I am not by any means trying to scold him.

I guess I should use more smilies.

He seems pretty insistant on force feeding...which is probably unnecessary.

I apologize if I seemed to be scolding him.

that was not my intention. :oops:

I do agree that more patience is needed.

:)

I'd like to point out that he isn't asking about force feeding, but assist feeding, which is not a horrible thing to do. It definitely got my snake eating, but I don't think it should be tried until after a vet visit to check for parasites. Even if he just takes a fecal sample in without having to pay the office visit fee.

Assist feeding really isn't that difficult or traumatic, and I'm so grateful to Jamie for teaching me how to do it. I'd be happy to share what I learned, but my concern is that if the snake has parasites, assist feeding will not do much good at all. I think whyteboi is just in panic mode, much like I was the day I joined here :D

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Originally Posted by SarahMB

I'd like to point out that he isn't asking about force feeding, but assist feeding, which is not a horrible thing to do.

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I meant assist feeding. :oops:

and no if done properly...it is great.

I had to do it to my Trax. and it probably saved his life. :D

but it was an absolute last resort.

ok I am finished...I said what was jmo only.

HAVE A HAPPY FRIDAY PEOPLE!!!

:rockon:

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

I meant assist feeding. :oops:

and no if done properly...it is great.

I had to do it to my Trax. and it probably saved his life. :D

but it was an absolute last resort.

ok I am finished...I said what was jmo only.

HAVE A HAPPY FRIDAY PEOPLE!!!

:rockon:

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Hehe, sorry, that wasn't directed at you, MeMe! I just noticed that "force" had been used a few times in this thread, and not everyone knows the difference. I know you do! :D
And I agree completely, neither should be used until nothing else has worked, and there's no way everything has been tried with this snake yet. If whyteboi is telling the truth about his setup, then I think he's just worried and wants to take a shortcut.
It's so frustrating when people ask for advice and then refuse to take what is offered.

When my girl was a hatchling she would never touch anything that wasnt fully furred. Give her a full furred small- med mouse that is your best bet. Try a female mouse too, as it seems my snake is put off by the males scent marking.

Let me say I said he urated and urined or peed. I thought this meant he was very young because it was his yolk, but I found out all this means is that he is drinking, so then again I am left with no idea of how old he was. He was at least 10 days old, because he had already had his "baby" shed before I got him cause I have had him for like 3 weeks and no shed.

Ok, I dont care what he eats, but as long as he does, what do baby bp's seem most interested in? Im guessing fuzzy mice and not pinks. Possibly hoppers but I am not sure.

Im adding crumpled newspaper right now cause I never did that but I did take all the other advice, and I dont plan on forcefeeding, just opening his mouth with a qtip and pushing it in barely, just the mouses head and thats it, not even down his throat, so he gets the idea.

Thanks though

urates just mean he's hydrating himself, why all this talk about them having anything to do with feeding?

but back to the original poster, you're putting the cart before the horse. just take a step back and think how much you'd wanna eat if some big ugly giant thing kept prodding you. you're really getting ahead of yourself with assist feeding because you haven't let him settle as far as you've told us. and anyway 3 weeks is nothing even for a hatchling, so settle yourself. if you really are having problems once your animal is settled, then you can worry about feeding in a smal container, or in a completely dark small box, or even standing on your head spitting nickels. now you also havent shown us the health of the snake in your care, and honestly i think you'd be much more frantic if it was declining quickly. so, let it be, try again in a week. and by let it be i mean put a sheet over it if you have to and don't take it off. just make sure it has water for however long and LEAVE IT.

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Originally Posted by whyteboi

and I dont plan on forcefeeding, just opening his mouth with a qtip and pushing it in barely, just the mouses head and thats it, not even down his throat, so he gets the idea.

Thanks though

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Good luck ... and remember, assist feeding is a last resort ... not something that should be attempted because you don't feel like waiting any longer.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Okay instead of panic mode, let's just take a breath and work the problem step by step. The snake is a baby, has no feeding experience as far as you know, may nor may not be in good health, it is passing urates so you at least know it is hydrated.

First understand where the baby's head is at right now. It's likely an import, scared witless, pretty much figures you want to eat it, is defensive and can't settle enough and feel secure enough to want to eat. Eating is a vulnerable time for snakes as they can neither fight back nor easily flee with a face full of half swallowed prey. So first off, get the snake into a living condition that will allow it to feel safe.

We use this sort of very small enclosure for the babies and so far it's worked beautifully. A really flighty baby gets crumpled newspaper added in and if they aren't eating they go into a darkened walk in closet or a back bedroom where there is little to no movement near them, music, doors slamming open and closed and so forth. They aren't handled or bothered other than basic cage maintenance and the lights are always low/dark.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ordanFeb07.jpg

This entire setup costs well under $10.00. The Iris brand shoebox is about $5.00, the little blue bowl was 3 for $1.00 and the ramekin water dish was 4 for $6.00. The newspaper's basically free or at most 50 cents.

Once you have the baby set up then don't even try to feed for another week to two weeks. Let it destress and become confident in it's new home. Confident snakes are snakes that hunt and consume prey. Scared snakes do not.

You need to consider getting this baby to a herp vet. This may entail borrowing money from friends, finding some fast day work to raise funds, speaking to a vet about a payment plan or work for the vet in exchange for a basic checkup and fecal float/vent wash and any meds needed if internal parasites are found. If this snake is ill, that's just got to be dealt with for anything else to be really effective.

If the snake is found to be healthy and it's enviroment allows it to de-stress, then offering it either a pinkie rat or a crawler mouse would be the next step. Pick a quiet evening (they are nocturnal so after dark is best I think), pre-scent the area with the live prey item in a ventilated container left near the snake's home, move very quietly yourself and be calm and slow in your own movements near the snake's enclosure. Leave the live prey in there a good hour or two, then slip it in to the enclosure on the opposite side from wherever the snake is. Do NOT drop live prey directly in the face of your snake, that will startle it and put it back into a defensive posture. Put in the prey and walk away making sure the lights are off and it's quiet. Live prey of that maturity do not have the erupted teeth necessary to damage your snake. Do NOT check back every few minutes, leave them overnight if you have to. If you happen to walk in and the snake is constricting it's prey, don't watch, don't stick around, sneak away and leave it to it's natural work. Some snakes if startled during constriction will finish that part but not settle down to actually swallow the dead prey item.

Don't panic, work the problem, seek vet advice. :)

Ok I added crumpled newspaper, with with the two hides, and water bowl, he has no room to like hunt a mouse, did I put too much in, or do I take it out before he eats, or do I feed him in a seperate container with scented mouse?

You want the crumpled up newspaper to be loosely crumpled and not jammed in too tight. Basically just filling the space but loose enough he can slither under and through it. He'll find the mouse, no worries. In the wild they hunt in all sorts of conditions with leaf litter, in black as night burrows, etc. Your snake hunts by picking up the vibrations of prey movement, by smell and by reading heat signatures so a bit of newspaper in the way shouldn't be any issue at all. It should actually give him the "cover" needed to feel safe and unexposed, therefore encouraging him to become a confident hunter.

Remember now, since you are making these changes you want to leave him be totally for the next week other than a quick peek to make sure he's got water...no handling, no attempts to feed. Review steps on live feeding that members have given you before the next feeding attempt.

If all this works and he starts eating do not change feeding method, prey type or prey size. Let him eat what he wants, how he wants it...change nothing, not the time of day fed, the day fed...do what worked EXACTLY the same week after week. After at least 4 weeks of eating you can start to VERY slowly remove a few bits of the newspaper each week. It may take a long time to finally have no newspaper left...that's fine. If he is eating and suddenly starts refusing again, stop removing the newspaper immediately.