tank setup discussion split from petco employee thread

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

there are a great many petco is stupid threads here at bp.net and just as many if not more horrible stories to go with them.

On a lighter note, the petco by me just now started to carry those cheap t-stats by zoo-med I think. I know nothing fancy, but it's far better than nothing and I was pleasantly surprised to find petco "associate" pushing for a new bp owner to buy one along with all the other doo-dads. Yea I know it was just to pad the bottom line, but as long as the customer is told t-stats are necessary than petco has done their job in that department. (But yes, I know there are countless other areas in the herp section alone that need improvement. accurate thermometers being one of the many)

Link to my incident with Petco on why Petco needs proper caresheets, thermometers and general knowledge of species.
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ighlight=petco

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You don't need a thermostat to keep a healthy bp. Unless perhaps you live w/o central air.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

You don't need a thermostat to keep a healthy bp. Unless perhaps you live w/o central air.

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central air only controls ambient temps, you NEED a t-stat to control your basking spots temps, or atleast a rheostat that you check frequently....

most people with 1 snake don't keep their temps in their house at 85 degrees anyways and need a way to keep ambient temps up and under control.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

You don't need a thermostat to keep a healthy bp. Unless perhaps you live w/o central air.

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Would you mind explaining the reasoning behind that statement?


dr del

I've got a gradient from 90+ to room temp on the cold side. The temps in the cage vary a few degrees along with the house temp. My ball tends to cycle between the warm and cool sides as needed.

Except for now that is - he's being a jerk. I've moved and changed stuff around and he keeps going on cold-side strike. I think he does it on purpose to torture me.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Would you mind explaining the reasoning behind that statement?


dr del

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Central air means stable environment temperature. With a stable environment temperature the cage temp is going to also be stable and so, with some adjustments you can control it w/o a feedback loop.

IN my case, I have an always-on UTH. I can control the temp of the warm side by controlling the thickness of the substrate. After I get it where he starts cycling between warm and cool side then I don't have to worry about it too much because the house temp only changes a few degrees ever.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I've got a gradient from 90+ to room temp on the cold side. The temps in the cage vary a few degrees along with the house temp. My ball tends to cycle between the warm and cool sides as needed.

Except for now that is - he's being a jerk. I've moved and changed stuff around and he keeps going on cold-side strike. I think he does it on purpose to torture me.

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So what are the max top and bottom range of the temps on both sides of his enclosure? You say they vary a few degrees - any more precise long term readings?

What heat source are you using to provide the above ambient temperature? And is it controled in any way at all?

**edit**

OK always on uth - does it have a dimmer switch or anything? Your right stable ambients are a good thing - but flexwatt unlimited still gets to 105f and needs limited in some manner.

**end edit **


dr del

Or to look at it another way, I'm relying on the houses thermostat to keep the environment around the cage constant and, therefore, the temps inside the cage constant.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

IN my case, I have an always-on UTH. I can control the temp of the warm side by controlling the thickness of the substrate. After I get it where he starts cycling between warm and cool side then I don't have to worry about it too much because the house temp only changes a few degrees ever.

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that can be a very dangerous way of controlling temps. UTHs tend to "spike" every once and awhile and can lead to burns. Also, if you have too much substrate on top of the UTH to cool down the tank, there may not be enough heat radiation from the glass (assuming you are using a viv) and the glass will shatter from the heat stress. I'm afraid you will not find many people on this site who'll agree with you in saying that a t-stat is not necessary for a ultimately healthy bp.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

IN my case, I have an always-on UTH. I can control the temp of the warm side by controlling the thickness of the substrate. After I get it where he starts cycling between warm and cool side then I don't have to worry about it too much because the house temp only changes a few degrees ever.

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I'm sorry to say that is in all probability a very bad idea.

What if he decides to dig? does he come into contact with the heat pad running full on at (if its flexwatt) 105 f and get burned? Yes, yes he does.:(

What kind of substrate do you use that this isn't going to happen?

On another point that might help you you mentioned moving his house about and now he stays on one side?

Are both the hides identicle? If you post pics of your setup temps etc in another thread we might be able to help you get him back to thermoregulating.


dr del

I have a 20g fish tank with an basic UTH that covers about 1/2 of the bottom. I control the heat by controlling the thickness of the substrate. At the hottest point under the hide the substrate is very thin - only 1/4 of an inch.

well he stays in the middle of the cage because I can only put him on a desk now and he doesn't like the vast open spaces he can see at all edges.

He's got a number of places he can hide. There is a bunch of cork bark, grape-wood and peet moss that he uses to find hiding places.

He has burrowed down to the glass many times and it hasn't hurt him. I can place my hand on the bare glass below and it feels hot but not so hot I have to pull my hand away.

If you can outline a basic setup that doesn't cost alot I might get it. it takes alot of fiddling and attention to keep his cage right this way. But, you know its not like the outdoors in Africa is controlled by a thermostat. I'm sure there is a fairly decent range of temps that or OK or else BP's would be extinct.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I have a 20g fish tank with an basic UTH that covers about 1/2 of the bottom. I control the heat by controlling the thickness of the substrate. At the hottest point under the hide the substrate is very thin - only 1/4 of an inch.

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The UTH should only cover 1/3rd of the bottom, 1/4inch of substrate over an unregulated heating pad can be VERY dangerous if the snake moves some of the substrate around and touches the heating pad. UTH's can easily get over 100 degrees and need to be controlled to produce no more than 95 degrees at the glass. You said your ambient temps are room temp? what is that? do you keep your house at 85 degrees? unless you do, you need a heatlamp to keep ambient up to 85 degrees as well.


EDIT:
I would recommend getting a heatlamp along with a t-stat. between the UTH, the heatlamp and the t-stat you will keep your ambient up and you won't have a possible fryer should the UTH go beserk.

heatlamp $10
Light $10
T-stat $36-200+

I would recommend checking this site out:
http://www.mgreptiles.com/thermomain.html

my stuff is all asunder right now so I can't post pics.

The cold side is just room temp which generally varies between 71 and 75.

http://www.animalinstinct.co.uk/acat...ghting_24.html

Also have a 50 watt red heat lamp that goes over the warm side. Cute little guy is basking in it while he looks at me right now. :sunny:

Dang he's cute!

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Originally Posted by bearhart

my stuff is all asunder right now so I can't post pics.

The cold side is just room temp which generally varies between 71 and 75.

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71-75 IS WAY TOO COLD FOR A BP!!! It needs to be 80-85 ambient. you make mention of africa, and remember not much of africa stays 71-75 degrees...

yea - heat pad is probably just over a third. 40% or so.

dual lamps maybe?

Its sems like a lamp keeps the air above the substrate about 80-85 degrees. That would be perfect for the cool side.

I have to admit its kind of creepy when he hangs out over there. I get him out and he's just too chilly.

If that's whats needed to get the ambient up to 80-85 then YES!

Have you tried the following?
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=32800

hey Derek, wanna split the thread???

"Glass vivariums are open on all sides. To allow your snake to feel more secure in its environment we recommend you cover over all but the front glass in some fashion."

This became very obvious to me today. Before he had alot of stuff around the outside of his cage. Right now, we're in temp quarters and he's got open space all round except the front that faces me. I can tell he doesn't like it because of the way he looks out and always stays at a location that hides his view of the great abyss.

When you're learning about snakes its tough because there a several different grades of info you find. One of the most comment thing I run into is people failing to mention (or not knowing) how important a particular choice is. This can come from newbies or veterans. newbies don't know any better and veterans can get very religious about issues. Its vary rare that you'll find somebody that's wise enough to seperate important stuff from personal preferance.

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

If that's whats needed to get the ambient up to 80-85 then YES!

Have you tried the following?
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=32800

hey Derek, wanna split the thread???

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done! :)

just go easy on my wallet guys....

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Originally Posted by bearhart

When you're learning about snakes its tough because there a several different grades of info you find. One of the most comment thing I run into is people failing to mention (or not knowing) how important a particular choice is. This can come from newbies or veterans. newbies don't know any better and veterans can get very religious about issues. Its vary rare that you'll find somebody that's wise enough to seperate important stuff from personal preferance.

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I understand, but there is usually a credible reason why keepers get religious. Because it works and they only want the best for they're animals. Yes, there may be cheaper alternatives, however in most cases you get what you pay for.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

just go easy on my wallet guys....

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Lol we're not making you buy anything. It's up to you to take care of your own snake. We're simply giving you advice on improving your husbandry techniques. But if you want me to shop for you, it can be arranged! :rolleye2: j/k

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Originally Posted by bearhart

just go easy on my wallet guys....

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all it may take is that $36 dollar t-stat and the aluminum foil lid top like in the thread you read. My bp is in the exact same set-up (well, I have a herpstat) with my a/c set at 74 and she has perfect temps/humidity.

Well, I pay clost attention to things and that probably helps make up for it because I can see by his actions how things are for him.

But, I could go for a t-stat just for the hobbyist/nerd factor alone. If I can hook it all up to my existing equipment that would be awesome.

Did I mention that little guy is just stinkin' cute!!!!!! :carrot:

My big gripes about overblown info:
1) live vs F/T - most people blow this way out of proportion.
2) feed in/out of tank
3) handling rules.

Yeah,


Sometimes we can come off as a little preachy because the person were talking to hasn't seen things like this caused by improperly regulated heaters.

I have to say you've done quite well to be here a month without anyone looking at you funny and reaching for the :soapbx: :P

Here's a link to the glass tank setup sticky in case you haven't come across it before.

Also have a glance through the caging forum for extra ideas and check out the following brands of thermostats as the ones i can remember as recomended;

Ranco, Jhonstone (sp) controls (both on/off thermostats) or the helix or herpstat (proportional iirc) and check online to get an idea of prices.

If you have any questions or just want to discuss ideas then just post and we'll try and answer as best we can.:)



dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

all it may take is that $36 dollar t-stat and the aluminum foil lid top like in the thread you read. My bp is in the exact same set-up (well, I have a herpstat) with my a/c set at 74 and she has perfect temps/humidity.

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I don't have to wear an aluminum foil hat too do I gooseman? :D

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Well, I pay clost attention to things and that probably helps make up for it because I can see by his actions how things are for him.

But, I could go for a t-stat just for the hobbyist/nerd factor alone. If I can hook it all up to my existing equipment that would be awesome.

Did I mention that little guy is just stinkin' cute!!!!!! :carrot:

My big gripes about overblown info:
1) live vs F/T - most people blow this way out of proportion.
2) feed in/out of tank
3) handling rules.

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another little hint if you plan on covering the sides, when I covered the sides I used the duct tape/aluminum foil trick for the sides as well. Heat passes through glass very easily so I tried as best I can to seal all sides except the front from heat loss. It makes it really simple to control the temps now, although I soon plan to build a custom enclosure for her.

and yea, those three topics ARE personnal preference issues, however heat management is NOT one of them.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

My big gripes about overblown info:
1) live vs F/T - most people blow this way out of proportion.

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I tend to agree - feed what it will eat

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Originally Posted by bearhart

2) feed in/out of tank

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Actually there can be good reasons for this one - but one of mine won't eat in her tank so it varies by snake.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

3) handling rules.

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There are very good reasons for this one - it also varies by snake but if your snake stops eating stop handling to see if it helps.


dr del

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I don't have to wear an aluminum foil hat too do I gooseman? :D

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that all depends... do you believe in alien life forms? b/c I hear tin foil is actually better for that. lol

I soiled myself the first time he burrowed to the glass. But he's been fine and after some testing I found could stick and hold my hands on the glass. What I do notice is that if he wears the bedding down too thin or bottoms out he has to high-tail it to the cool side regularly. But, a 1/4 inch is just about perfect for him. I'm thinking of switching to a cloth base (like a hankie) for the hot-spot so he can't ever hit glass.

I'm using fir/sphagnum substrate.

I feed out of tank - hah! gotcha!

Handling guidelines are way too conservative IMO. Or, at least, "tuning in" to your snake is rarely talked about. More than anything, I hate the "snakes are like robots and it doesn't matter what you do, you can't change them" bit.

I handle my gal so much I honestly think she's able to recognize me. When I open her tank she'll partly come out of her hide and just look at me as if to say "so um, you gonna take me out?" When I moved back home for the summer and put her in my room which I never go into she almost seems lonely in her demeanor, because back in college she would watch me all the time. In fact she's on my shoulder right now makin it quite difficult for me to use the touchpad on my laptop. lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

IN my case, I have an always-on UTH. I can control the temp of the warm side by controlling the thickness of the substrate. After I get it where he starts cycling between warm and cool side then I don't have to worry about it too much because the house temp only changes a few degrees ever.

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So what happens if the snake decides to vary the thickness of the substrate, as mine often does during its nocturnal wanderings (I use Bed-A-Beast, BTW)? It sounds like you're risking baked snake. :colbert: Get a t-stat, pronto. I have a proportional on one side and a rheo on the other, and I wouldn't go with anything less.

dang that did it I had to take my ball out! :O

yea Ill have to get a t-stat. But do I only control one item with it?

http://www.slamsoftware.com/Snakey/LochNess2.jpg

:carrot:

Hi,

Yes you can only control one heatsource per thermostat.....

Unless either;

1. You have two identicle heating devices ( ie 2 same size/watt uth's or such).
2. You buy a dual channel thermostat.

dr del

sweet so Ill just hook it to the UTH and control the warm side belly temp

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Yes you can only control one heatsource per thermostat.....

Unless either;

1. You have two identicle heating devices ( ie 2 same size/watt uth's or such).
2. You buy a dual channel thermostat.

dr del

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derek, I'm pretty sure most t-stats have outlets for 3 power sources, the zoomed 500r included (which is the $36 one)

http://www.mgreptiles.com/THERMOCOMPARE.html

Yup,


Then get the tank set up and see if you will need another supplemental heating source to boost the cool end temps. Insulating the sides of the tank can make a lot o difference - I use cork sheeting as it's quite attractive but others use polystyrene and then cover it. It probably has a better performance than my method.

If you do tell us and we will try and work out what would be the best way forward for you.:)


dr del

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

derek, I'm pretty sure most t-stats have outlets for 3 power sources, the zoomed 500r included (which is the $36 one)

http://www.mgreptiles.com/THERMOCOMPARE.html

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Yes they may well have - but everything connected to them has to be identicle or the same voltage being applied will produce different temps.

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Originally Posted by MGreptiles page you linked to

Q: CAN MY THERMOSTAT CONTROL MORE THAN ONE CAGE?
A: YES, YOUR NEW THERMOSTAT CAN HANDLE A BANK OF CAGES. AS LONG AS THE HEATING ELEMENTS ARE THE SAME AND THE CAGES ARE AT ROOM TEMP AT START UP.

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And,

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Originally Posted by MGreptiles page you linked to

Q: I NEED A THERMOSTAT THAT WILL HANDLE 2 DIFFERENT TEMPS AND I WANT IT TO BE IN THE SAME
UNIT. WHICH ONE IS FOR ME?
A: THE HERPSTAT 2 OR THE HABITAT CONTROLS ARE THE ONLY THERMOSTATS ON THE MARKET
THAT WILL DO THAT AT THIS TIME. YOU CAN USE 2 THERMOSTATS TO CONTROL THEM LIKE 2
RANCOS..

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dr del

True, guess I just matched my UTH, Heatlamp and tank perfectly. I have my UTH and Heatlamp in the same herpstat and I maintain a perfect gradient. But yea, now I see what your saying, if you can't get the right gradient then you will need 2 t-stats.