Pine Debate!!!

Pine for rats and mice, is it ok or not? I have read articles that say dried pine is ok for your rodents. I also read that the lack of dust and increased ventilation(sp?) make pine a great choice. I have a good supplier 1/2 hour away that has pine for a reasonable price.
So what do you think(personal experience only, no he say she say please).

it's bad. it is dusty and the oils is contain are not good for rodents or reptiles. it makes rodents sneezy and runny nosed. i like aspen the best and so do my rodents. :)

I've switched from Aspen to Pine for my rats. I haven't noticed any increase in sneezing or respiratory problems of any kind. The stuff I had been getting was a little too dusty so this week I picked up the brand sold at Petco. A little more expensive for the same size bag but its much better quality.

Does anyone have a link to any studies done on pine? I am just wondering; it has such a bad rap.
I use aspen shavings, and they are much more dusty than the hig-end pine I was using! I am just about ready for my next bag, running low, and on the fence about which to buy.

I found this article. Not sure how much I believe Debbie "The Rat Lady" but take it for what its worth.

http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html

I think it matters highly on how the shavings are processed before they are packaged. I have used cheap pine that was VERY dusty and seemed to cause a little respiratory distress for the rodents. I have also used high-end, very thin, well-screened and kiln-dried pine that had NO dust, caused no problems and absorbed better than any other bedding I've used before (but it isn't cheap). A local herper has been using the same stuff on his rodent colony for almost 20 years, and he has the healthiest (and largest) colony I've ever seen. He has also kept thousands of snakes on the same shavings for years with no Ill effects.

That said, I've actually switched over to a shredded paper bedding that also has no dust whatsoever, absorbs very well, and is cheaper than most shavings.

-Evan

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Originally Posted by Evan Jamison

I've actually switched over to a shredded paper bedding that also has no dust whatsoever, absorbs very well, and is cheaper than most shavings.

-Evan

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Where are you getting the paper bedding from? How does it do with smell?

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Originally Posted by Evan Jamison

shredded paper bedding -Evan

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What is the brand name of that? Can you buy in bulk?


I switched from Aspen to Pine also. I have not noticed any sneezing or other respiratory issues. The pine I use is really dusty also (almost 1/2 sawdust). I use about a full 2.8 cu ft bag per cleaning, so the pine really fits in my budget.

Thanks for this thread guys I also just started breeding my rats and was wondering this..
I am doing the whole vanilla in the water thing so I see how that goes. but would love something a little better than aspen for the weekly smell. I have been keeping hold over that did not get eaten for years now but they never stayed more than a week. My question is would the oil from the pine effect pinkies??

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

My question is would the oil from the pine effect pinkies??

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So far in my experience with pine all is well and good with the pinkies...I personally think pine smells better than aspen also!!

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Where are you getting the paper bedding from?

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Originally Posted by monk90222

What is the brand name of that? Can you buy in bulk?

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It is produced here locally, but you may be able to find something similar if there is a livestock/feed store around your place. I buy it in large bags that expand to about 12.5 cu. ft. for about 7 bucks. I'm not sure exactly what it is made from, but I think it is shredded up phone books.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

How does it do with smell?

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With regular weekly changes I haven't noticed a difference in smell one way or the other, but on the occasional week where bedding changes are a day or two late, it seems to smell substantially less than with the shavings I used to use.

-Evan

Pine is great for rodents, but not snakes.
I use pine for all my rodents, get a huge back from wal mart for 4.88

Ok, I think I'll go with it. I was worried because I have to buy a pallet of 35 bags of the stuff and each bag is 35 lbs and 3.2 cubic feet each bag. Even if it is really dusty, I'll deal with it. I'll make a sifter if I need to. I am currently at 10 adult rats and I'll be getting a lot more very soon.

Heres the actual ad. I'll end up with 1225 lbs for 140$!
Woody Pet Products Inc
Warehouse in
Kokomo, IN. Fremont, NE. Birmingham, AL 35207
USA

Wood Type: Pine
Origin: Lumber Mill Bag Size: 3.20 cu.ft. Bag Weight: 35 lbs. Palleted: 35 Min. Order: 35 bags
Cost per bag (Min. order): $3.99 Cost per bag (100+ bag order): $3.99 Cost per bag (500+ bag order): $3.99

Telephone: 888-535-9816
Fax: 888-535-9861


Screened dried absorbent bagged Canadian (BC) shavings available in Birmingham Alabama, Kokomo Indiana & Fremont Nebraska. We accept VISA & MASTERCARD. Toll Free # 888-535-9816 email: shavings@woodypet.com web: www.woodypet.com

Evan, is it just basically paper shreddings? We get a garbage bag every few days at my parents work and i use a little bit for bedding aswell as aspen

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Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

Evan, is it just basically paper shreddings? We get a garbage bag every few days at my parents work and i use a little bit for bedding aswell as aspen

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Yeah it is, but it is much more absorbent that shredded printer paper (tried that once...)

-Evan

oh, do you have any idea what kind of paper it is?

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Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

oh, do you have any idea what kind of paper it is?

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Originally Posted by Evan Jamison

...I'm not sure exactly what it is made from, but I think it is shredded up phone books.

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:sunny:

-Evan

Kiln dried and sifted for dust is the best. There are pine beddings out there that are not kiln dried and they are the ones that cause problems. ;)

is sun dried good enough?

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Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

is sun dried good enough?

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What? never heard of "sun dried" bedding, I would doubt its been dried enough to remove the oils in the wood.

I have always used pine for my rodents and I have never encountered ill effects with adults or offspring. Pine masks odor very well and it does smell better than aspen and cedar.

I just read something about sun dried pine. When they call or email me back, I'll ask if its kiln dried

Woody Pet works very well...we use it exclusively for both of our rodent colonies & have had great results. A little goes a long way, too!

:2cent:

K~

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Originally Posted by KLG

Woody Pet works very well...we use it exclusively for both of our rodent colonies & have had great results. A little goes a long way, too!

:2cent:

K~

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Is that horse bedding? How is the pricing on it?

I've always used pine and it worked just fine, I've never had any trouble with it. Recently I switched to shredded aspen because I found a place that it was cheaper then the bales of pine I use. Now I actually like it better. To me, it seems that I can go longer between cleanings before the smell gets really bad, the opposite of what I would have expected. Maybe because it's drier?

Mark

i found this an interesting read:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/V...1155/Pine.html

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

i found this an interesting read:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/V...1155/Pine.html

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That was the main article I read that made me say "go for it"

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Is that horse bedding? How is the pricing on it?

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It is, although I've never used it for horses, nor have I ever seen it at any of the barns where I've trained. ;)

We pay around $4/bag for the quantity we buy at a time.

K~

I don't think what I am getting is the bedding on their site( www.woodypet.com ) but rather pine shavings

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Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

I don't think what I am getting is the bedding on their site( www.woodypet.com ) but rather pine shavings

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Kara was just suggesting what she uses.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Kara was just suggesting what she uses.

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I know this.

I went to a local feed store and they gave me a few sample bags, I surely was impressed by its absorbing qualities

wow, well i don't know specifically what kind of pine i was using because this was several years ago but i kept a hamster on pine for a while and she got sneezy and runny nosed pretty badly. i took her to the vet who gave me meds to treat for a respiratory infection and advised me to put her on aspen rather than the pine i was using and it worked like a charm. i've always used aspen for my rats because of that experience and based on recommendations of others but apparently there is some better pine bedding out there than whatever it was i was using at the time. :)

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Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

I know this.

I went to a local feed store and they gave me a few sample bags, I surely was impressed by its absorbing qualities

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So what made you not want to keep using it?

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Originally Posted by jglass38

So what made you not want to keep using it?

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Just didn't buy any of it. Also, don't know how much I'll have to pay for a bag. I'd rather stick with aspen or pine shavings

Jake,


I bought and was using pine, (which I love for the smell) but for the mice there was no difference in odor control (time) btwn pine and aspen, and for the rats, they ended up with sniffles, sneezing and porphorin discharge. Once I switched to the less dusty aspen, they were a lot healthier...no more respiratory problems.

If I could find something that wasn't as dusty / dirty for pine in our area, I might try it again, but since I use aspen for the snakes, I can't see buying aspen for snakes and pine for the rats. I use the apsen for both. A LARGE 15# (9? 15?ft3) brown bag is only $35 but last me a couple months of rats and snakes housekeeping.

When I first started breeding the rats, & was trying to establish a mouse colony, I'd use our shredding junk mail paper that I'd saved mixed in w/the pine or aspen to extend my big bag's life, but right now, I'm using just the aspen bedding by itself. I have a couple girls getting VERY pregnant, so will probably put some of the paper in for nesting materials too to help a bit.

I'd love to find a better deal for the bedding, though. Especially now since I've gotten more snakes.

I use screened, kiln dried pine.. and have had no problems with it. There's no dust, and it smells really nice and is quite absorbent.

I've thought of using woody pet (or any of the other compressed wood shaving beddings) but my feed store doesn't carry any of the brands I don't think.. the stuff absorbs like crazy though.

I'd make sure it was dust free of course before using. I already have a plan to shake the dust out if need be

I've used Pine for my rats for years...I started out using Aspen, but as I expanded my Business that got to expensive...I didn't notice anything different when I made the change...

personally i use aspen. i used pine way back when, but found my rodents did much better (breathing wise) on aspen.

I never recommend pine to ANYone. In my experience with small animals (9 years and counting), they do much, much better on aspen, corncob bedding or some paper-based beddings. Alot of my fellow rat enthusiasts like to use Carefresh mixed with aspen shavings. I simply use a lining of newspaper and a lining of aspen. This does my cages good for one week, and occassionally I can push it another 2 or 3 days before it actually begins to smell enough.

I do not know how kiln-dried pine would be, but I'd rather just stick to the stuff I know doesn't bother my rats too much. Sure, sometimes rats get sick, but in my first year experience, my rats were always sniffling and sneezing on pine. I took one to the vet, and the vet suggested switching to aspen or just plain newspaper. Well, plain newspaper doesn't do well with cutting down odor, so I ended up with aspen. I haven't gone back to anything else since. That was 8 years ago!

I have used Carefresh alone, but found it not too pleasing, as it got stinky rather quickly. I mixed it with aspen and that made it last longer, but Carefresh can be pricey, so once I ran out I didn't buy anymore.

There's also something called Yesterday's News that is popular in the small animal world, but none of the stores around me carry that, so I don't know how well it works.

I say, to each their own. But, if anyone ever asks me directly, I vote, "no," on pine. Rats have way too sensitive respiratory systems. I try to avoid anything that may be harmful, or at least uncomfortable, to mine. I trust what I've read and have been told by vets and by rat enthusiasts, and nothing will ever change my mind about pine. I haven't dropped my "no" vote for this many years, nothing will sway my decision for it. :)

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Originally Posted by Rakshasi

But, if anyone ever asks me directly, I vote, "no," on pine. Rats have way too sensitive respiratory systems. I try to avoid anything that may be harmful, or at least uncomfortable, to mine. I trust what I've read and have been told by vets and by rat enthusiasts, and nothing will ever change my mind about pine. I haven't dropped my "no" vote for this many years, nothing will sway my decision for it. :)

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So what you are really saying is you won't use pine again...LOL :D JK

I too have been breeding rats for years (12+) and have tried everything. Like Tim, Aspen just got too expensive so I am currently using Pine (and have been for the past few months) and haven't noticed any difference in my rats breething or sneezing. I would suggest it could also be based on the amount of air flow you have...less would allow dust and phenols to build up which "might" be a source of issue (but this could be the case for any bedding)...but if you look across all the data available there is no clear cut ruling that pine is bad for rats.

On a side note I am also testing a new compressed pine pellet to see how it holds up...I will let you know how it goes if interested.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

So what you are really saying is you won't use pine again...LOL :D JK

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Yes, I think you've got the basic outline of it...*lol* ;)

I'm just very iffy about using pine because of the amount of rats I've had that seem...allergic??...to it, I guess you'd call it. I don't have any proof that it's bad, but it has been bad to my rats in my experience. I'm no scientist, so I don't know exactly why it's been that way, I just know I don't go back to things that gave me bad results. I have a very open mind, but when I see things cause harm, I can't open back up to them. I'm sure that's understandable. :) I'd never tell anyone that they CAN'T use it, because I don't really mind what others do. All I do is voice my opinion, and whoever finds it useful, well, that's just a perk.

Totally off-topic, but...I see in your signature you have blue and platinum rats...if they came from your litters, how did you produce them? Those two colors are so gorgeous to me (as well as fawn), but I can't get any neat colors, lately, no matter who I pair up. :( I don't want to make this topic too off, but I can't control my curiousity.

[QUOTE=Rakshasi]
Totally off-topic, but...I see in your signature you have blue and platinum rats...if they came from your litters, how did you produce them? Those two colors are so gorgeous to me (as well as fawn), but I can't get any neat colors, lately, no matter who I pair up. :( I don't want to make this topic too off, but I can't control my curiousity.[/QUOTE

Yes...I picked up a blue self from a friend (a couple of years ago) and have been selectively breeding to get - blue self, blue hooded, blue capped (and Dumbo versions of the same). I am currently working on a blue point siamese...which should be really cool if I get any (it is a triple het trait so really tough)

As for the Platinum the original was a fluke from a non-descript carrier...I haven't had as much success get much from this gene...either my Platnium also carry some bad genes or this gene is associated to weaker animals as I get a lot of babies that develop head tilt and tumors so I end up feeding them off quickly.:(

To bad you don't live closer I could hook you up with some colors and patterns. :D

I have made my official decision; I am going with aspen shavings (not the higher-end aspen shreds that people usually use for snakes, but actual big, fluffy shavings.) They are very dry and really, when it comes down to it, their price is not much different than the compressed pine that I can get in our area. The aspen is definately drier than the pine; anyone who has lived in the country and knows about starting fires will tell you; pine is moist and sappy. I have used the "driest" pine I could buy (made by Pestell) and still, it has a sappy feeling to me that just does not sit wight with me for using under rats that will be fed to my snakes. Not to mention, there is only one place local here that sells pine at a very low price, and 9 out of 10 of their bags are WET inside! My friend was buying it for her pet store, and it was already sopping wet!! I could not eevn salvage a bale and toss it into my hrose stalls because it was that wet.
I do not like pellet bedding unless something cushy is provided for the rats to nest with. I could not imagine sleeping on wood pellets!

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

I am currently working on a blue point siamese...which should be really cool if I get any (it is a triple het trait so really tough)

As for the Platinum the original was a fluke from a non-descript carrier...I haven't had as much success get much from this gene...either my Platnium also carry some bad genes or this gene is associated to weaker animals as I get a lot of babies that develop head tilt and tumors so I end up feeding them off quickly.:(

To bad you don't live closer I could hook you up with some colors and patterns. :D

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Blue point siamese! Ooh, you have to show pictures when you produce some. I demand it, haha. Good luck! :D

That's a really crummy deal on the platinums, though. Sorry to hear that. They're such a pretty coat color, too.

And even though we live a long distance apart, and it's next to impossible, I very much appreciate the idea you've thrown out there! That's definitely nice of you.

My apologies for short, uninformative responses...I've been up for far too long, and I still am unable to force myself to sleep (insomnia). At least I have somewhere to go online that's never boring.

Ginevive,
I'll have to agree that pine does feel very sappy to me, as well. I used to be a country girl, myself, so I understand that fire bit. Now, fires are as easy as a match and a tree. I live in a dry, deserty area. It's rare to find anything excessively moist, so when I do, I can feel it well. I like how dry aspen usually is, and not very dusty. Though, I will admit that I've found at least a few bags that seemed to have a fair amount of dust.

Where did you get fluffy aspen shavings from? Both my rats and dogs would appreciate something a little less stiff (dogs have a roomy doghouse outside, which i fill with fresh aspen every now and then just in case they'd rather be in there than outside, though 3 out of 4 prefer being inside the house so the other one is who it's really for).

Here ya go! I get mine at markheim pets near Buffalo, NY. It's a big bag/bale, about waist-high if next to me; and I am about 5 foot 4. Brand name is Nepco.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s.../bigasspen.jpg
Looks..
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s.../asspen222.jpg

I used to use the same Aspen for my snakes cages :) . I really liked it very low in dust and clean. I used to get mine for $9 a bale...the pet store that carried it went out of business so I had to switch brands


Anyway good choice.:)

mine was/is $11. Not that bad.. I spend more on lunch daily at work for one day :) One bag literally lasts a few months for me. I am using it for my corn because he seems to like the ability to burrow/slither through it, and it is helping to retain humidity for his shed.

well I am trying something new for my new little rats. I am mixing pine and aspen together to see if it helps with the smell more.

Thank you, Ginevive! That type does look a bit more comfortable than the stuff in the smaller bags. I'm going to contact our local feed store and see if they have anything like that. The bag/bale size sounds like it'd save me some money, too. Awesome!