First 2007 CH shipment a few fancies....More "Lottery" debate split

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Originally Posted by neilgolli

Rampert,

The first one is a male, I don't know why but of the fancies that come in each year they are always male high. There are many more male abberants and male ringers than females. I don't know why but I've seen it year after year...

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I don't think we give enough credit to the guys over in Africa - they can go on the internet and see the massive amount of captive breeding being done over here...so if we can do it...so can they...and since females are the ones that lay eggs, wouldn't YOU want to keep all the female aberrants as well?

Call me a skeptic, but I would put money on the notion of so-called 'wild caught' or 'captive hatched' babies that are exported to the US and other places are actually CBB from Ghana.

Sorry for the digression...we're all entitled to our opinions on the lottery...I personally feel like the lottery mentality takes advantage of some hoping for a morph...and Neil you've defended your position well and it is a very creative way to move a lot of normals, maybe such that it might be worth it to miss a few aberrants here and there ... its not like the aberrants/fancies are selling for that much more than the normals anyway...best of luck!

Brad, there is absolutely no doubt that some africans are breeding balls over there. Noha is breeding hundreds of animals and he has been grabing all kinds of cool stuff for a few years. However keep in mind that 100,000 animals a year come to the US from africa and in the US there are very very very few breeders even producing 1000 animals. 99.9% are farmed babies and a lot of things are grabbed and sold for more however to think that they grab everything is being over optomistic. Think of looking at thousands and thousands of snakes after awhile they all look alike. Now imagin half of them are deep in shed. Things slip in.

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Originally Posted by neilgolli

Think of looking at thousands and thousands of snakes after awhile they all look alike. Now imagin half of them are deep in shed. Things slip in.

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I always thought the exact opposite to be true. After I'd looked at hundreds of thousands of snakes, I would like to think I'd be pretty good at picking out the good stuff...even deep in shed.

Put a normal and a fancy next to each other and ask a person on the street if they can tell a difference...probably not...its our seasoned eyes that let us see the difference between normals and aberrants.

Those guys in africa know what they're doing. To think anything less at this point in the game is foolish and naive. These are businessmen, not a bunch of natives beating on drums and pulling snakes out of the ground...

Brad, over time and looking at thousands of snakes does make you better at pulling things out, at finding the little things that make a difference however look at anyone thing for 8, 10, 12 hours over and over and over again. you miss things....... you get bored, you don't flip the snake over and look at its belly as one snake become the next and you just start counting to 10 to get them all bagged up. An albino pops up you see it, a yb pops up you catch 9 out of 10 but not all of them.

Africa is not what you think it is, there are several big farms but most babies do come from a guy beating a drum picking snakes out of the ground and tossing them in a pit in their backyard. They grab up the eggs 400 or so at a time, toss them in what can only be decribed as a coffin in the house and they wait for them to hatch. These guys don't have computers or cell phones. They hatch the eggs, take them to an exporter and sell them to him (6 or 7 exporters total in all of ghana). These exports have trappers from all over bringing them thousands of snakes as the entire quota has to go out threw these 6 or 7 guys. The exporters have cell phones and computers and know what is what for the most part. They go to Kingsnake and see what we sell snakes for. They try to pull what they can but I think that the get it all is a bit over optimistic of thier abilities.

I don't mean any disrepect at all and please don't take this post or any other as that way, I'm simply trying to help all understand what and how things work a bit.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I always thought the exact opposite to be true. After I'd looked at hundreds of thousands of snakes, I would like to think I'd be pretty good at picking out the good stuff...even deep in shed.

Put a normal and a fancy next to each other and ask a person on the street if they can tell a difference...probably not...its our seasoned eyes that let us see the difference between normals and aberrants.

Those guys in africa know what they're doing. To think anything less at this point in the game is foolish and naive. These are businessmen, not a bunch of natives beating on drums and pulling snakes out of the ground...

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Hey,
As you know i write the "Hunters Guide" series and obviously know what to pick out in shipments...

Well, after about 400 balls THEY ALL LOOK THE SAME! lol :)
Its true, you have no idea how many times i come home and cant figure out why i picked one out... Yesturday almost all the ones i went through were in shed and im looking for bad calicos and shatters that slip in, so i start off being really picky as to what im taking then about halfway through the 1000 i start adding more and more... i get home yesturday and laugh since i have 5 snakes that "looked" like Calicos at the time, but now that i have looked at them again they are completely normal.

The same thing happens in reverse to...
At some places i pick out everything that is cool and then go through them again so i can have a kind of "second opinion" and keep the best of the group. Last week (the first shipment i went through) when i first started, i found a Sable, put it in the bucket with the rest of what i was picking out thinking i would easily spot it again when i went through them the second time. Well 4 hours later and 700 balls, i forgot about the sable and didnt notice it the second time... by the time i remembered i was over halfway home and it wasnt worth going back through the 700 to see if i could re-find it ... since they all look the same in the end :D

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I always thought the exact opposite to be true. After I'd looked at hundreds of thousands of snakes, I would like to think I'd be pretty good at picking out the good stuff...even deep in shed.

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I agree, the fancy stuff catches your eye straight away... in shed or not. :)

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Originally Posted by NextWorldExotics

Hey,
As you know i write the "Hunters Guide" series and obviously know what to pick out in shipments...

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So on one hand you say you write the hunter's guide, but on the other hand:

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Originally Posted by NextWorldExotics

Well, after about 400 balls THEY ALL LOOK THE SAME! lol :)
Its true, you have no idea how many times i come home and cant figure out why i picked one out... ... since they all look the same in the end :D

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So you know what to look for and then again you pick stuff out that doesn't turn out to be anything but completely normal?

You might want to clarify here...Anyone else confused? :rolleye2:

I think when he has time, he can spot them easily. But when you're working hard and going through a thousand snakes, things start to blue.
It's like a factory inspector in a marble factory. Spotting white marbles is easy in the mess of blue ones. But finding the sort of blue/green ones... might be easy at the start of the day, but as it wears on, you miss a lot more of those slightly different colored ones, and you also probaly grab quite a few blue ones to toss out too.
Wolfy

Good example is walk thru your house and look at the walls for dirt, spots, holes etc. Do that for about 30 mins or so and tell me your not what I call "snow blind " I would think the same would be true trying to spot something that is a little askew in a ball python. Your eyes "get use " to what it's seeing. Now an albino or a something of that nature sure your gonna spot it but slight differences not so much.

I have some experience with looking at large numbers of CH babies... I used to work at a pet store that purchased a few hundred every season, and we would quickly choose the few hundred that were purchased out of however many the importer brought in, then we would go back through them to find fancies or favorites... and I will say that after a good amount of time of sorting through a large number of the same animal, they start to look alike. First you think one of them is crazy cool, then after a while you find another and have to compare it to the first because you can't remember what the first one looked like.

Although, I do realise that what the pet store aquired had already been sorted through by however many people before us, so a lot of ours were bound to look more alike than all the initial animals.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

So on one hand you say you write the hunter's guide, but on the other hand:



So you know what to look for and then again you pick stuff out that doesn't turn out to be anything but completely normal?

You might want to clarify here...Anyone else confused? :rolleye2:

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That's the point... even to me after a few hours they all start to look the same and I know what im doing. Its actually a joke down here, ill be at bens place and after a few hundred balls we start going "hey I found another yellow belly or check out this cinnamon" when we know full well they are normals. The reality is after 2-3 hours and only halfway through the babies you start seeing "what you want to see" (basically every snake looks like a calico :) ) or start slacking and get lazy and stop checking bellies , chins, sides etc just to get done...

It does amaze me though that someone who has never gone through 1000 balls will comment this strongly on it. I got a deal for you, if you ever get down here during baby season and i can get one of my friends to let you come, you can go through a 1000+ balls with me and experience it for yourself... There's a big difference between intellectual knowledge and experiencial knowledge :D (Simplified version :) - think you know and knowing )

Neil, Mike, Ben , Myself can all tell you... we miss stuff and the people in africa miss stuff. If may not be that often, but it does happen. I know for a fact (becuase i saw it ) that the guys in africa missed an amazing Shatter Pattern last year. The best part is that Ben missed it too. I was at his shop and this kid comes in with a ball, right away i notice that its a shatter, i about freak out. Well i offer this kid and his dad $500 for it, they turn me down (kid was attached and good for him!) i find out it was in his Ball tank in the front of his shop, that would mean i missed it too :( ... Stuff gets missed its the way it goes...

there is a big difference in going through 1000+ in a shipment. and getting a 10 lot of mixed ch normals. yes mistakes happen, the question is how many mistakes?? how many mistakes will happen when they were ordered as 10 lot of mixed ch???


you don't have to go to FL, to go through 1000 ch normals!:rockon:

for me the proof is in the pudding:D

someone keep track of the male/female ratio:cool:



vaughn

How often are mistaken made, I've got 5400 to go threw Today and Tomorrow, I'll again let you know what I find and post pictures. I'm hoping to catch half of what the africans miss and eventually catch the other half as I'm packing up orders over the next few months......

Anyone wanting to help we will be at Mikes place (Haines City Fl) Thursday and My place (Lithia Florida, 15 minutes outside Tampa) Friday, pm me and we will see if we can make something happen.

again, you going through 5400 and someone ordering a 10 lot is a big difference!!!


someone good with statistics work this out, if you find 10 morphs in 5000, what are your chances when only buying a 10 lot? just curious!:)

also, if the ratio is 60-70% males. what are the odds of that being random? i'm just curious...


vaughn

The percentage odds stay the same. Your example of 10 out of 5000 means that there would 1 in every 50 bags (1 in every 500 snakes). My chances only increase over say yours as I've got so many more bags to open. Our overall chances of getting something out of any one bag are the same.

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Originally Posted by kavmon

again, you going through 5400 and someone ordering a 10 lot is a big difference!!!


someone good with statistics work this out, if you find 10 morphs in 5000, what are your chances when only buying a 10 lot? just curious!:)

also, if the ratio is 60-70% males. what are the odds of that being random? i'm just curious...


vaughn

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Where are you getting this 60%-70% males number???? Overall you will get about 50/50. The exporters do not care the sex of these snakes. Even the big importers can't request to get only females so why would the bags not be on average 50/50? How many bags of ch snakes have you ever opened and sexed? You seem pretty sure of yourself.

Why are you so against the unopened bag thing? No one said their is a great shot at finding something special. People are getting nice healthy animals for $15 each. What's the problem?

Bottom line if I want a hypo or a calico or a granite, I'm not going to pick up 50 bags and hope for the best. I'm going to pick up the phone and call a breeder. If I was looking to pick up cheap poss breeder females or cool dinkers then yea I might get a bag or two. People shouldn't feel cheated if they don't get a crappy calico or bad pastel. The odds are against you from the start. Now if I was a pet store owner and wanted some cheap babys for pets then yea I hit it up..

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Originally Posted by pfan151

Where are you getting this 60%-70% males number???? Overall you will get about 50/50. The exporters do not care the sex of these snakes. Even the big importers can't request to get only females so why would the bags not be on average 50/50? How many bags of ch snakes have you ever opened and sexed? You seem pretty sure of yourself.

Why are you so against the unopened bag thing? No one said their is a great shot at finding something special. People are getting nice healthy animals for $15 each. What's the problem?

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I don't think anyone has a problem with whats being done here...its NOTHING new...people have been able to buy small lots of CH ball pythons for years...

I think the point that has been beaten to death is the way it was marketed, and making such a big deal about such a slim chance to get more than you pay for is, in my opinion, teetering on being deceptive. Period. Others might have a different opinion, and we're all entitled to that. I'm not sure why the argument keeps going on...

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I don't think anyone has a problem with whats being done here...its NOTHING new...people have been able to buy small lots of CH ball pythons for years...

I think the point that has been beaten to death is the way it was marketed, and making such a big deal about such a slim chance to get more than you pay for is, in my opinion, teetering on being deceptive. Period. Others might have a different opinion, and we're all entitled to that. I'm not sure why the argument keeps going on...

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What have they said that is in any way deceptive? I could understand your argument if they were charging a premium for these snakes because they are unopened bags but they are not. My main problem in this thread is people that have more than likley never opened a single bag from Africa and act like they know what they are talking about. Not even so much with finding odd looking snakes, but more so with the sex ratio. People claiming a 70% male ratio because that's what came out of 2 or 3 bags is rediculous.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

What have they said that is in any way deceptive?

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Lets get real here. This wasn't a lottery. It doesn't even resemble a lottery. A lottery involves there being a set winner or winners out of all who participate. With this marketing ploy, there is no guarantee of any winner at all. So lets just get that straight.

I feel like it was a huge blunder on the sellers part to overlook the fact that some potential future customers out there might take offense to the animals they love so much being treated as a commodity in a lottery type mentality. Not all are going to look at it like that, but this thread is appearant that many out there, in fact, did.

Had this been marketed as usual...CH Lots of 10 Normal Unsexed ball pythons...I guarantee you this wouldn't have been such a sensitive issue. Its a creative way to move snakes...and when you've got 5400 or so to move, I guess a little creativity never hurts.....

Apologies beforehand....this is not directed at Neil or anyone in particular.....just my thoughts on this stuff....so don't take it personally.



Comparing to a lottery? so the ball pythons are just like a lottery ticket....and if someone loses, they will toss the ticket. It will happen...people do those things...if you don't think so, you have no understanding of people.

How many people will get a 10 bag of ball pythons and actually keep them all when nothing turns up? How many times will they change hands in that year? Out of all those 5400 $15 ball python, how many will make it through their first year? How many will die in pet stores or in the hands of unexperienced keepers? If tens of thousands of ball pythons are imported each year, where do they all go? Of the tens of thousands of ball pythons and other reptiles massively imported each year, how many live a heathy life and die of old age?

Why are the ball pythons being sold so cheap? To move them quick? The 'lottery' was a pretty good idea to increase profit. Pay for the importation process, don't even unpack the snakes, and ship them out to people for a cost three times as much as you paid for them . That brings the term 'flipper' to a whole new level, but hey.....at least someone don't have to pay for housing or food for all those snakes to get them established before selling....sure cuts down the overhead doesn't it?

Oh well......money drives most of the reptile industry...and just about all others..ha. People like money......most of them like money more than animals. Glad someone realized that they could prey on that greed......Lets start a lottery!!...For a few bucks you have the slightest of chances to hit it big...... That really got those looking for some sort of 'prize' interested. Next year, why not open up a few bags and toss an albino or two in the bags.....that would sure make someones day and the bags would sell twice as fast....and guess what, someone is guaranteed to win.....someone could really move'em out quick.

I really just can't understand why people don't hold these animals' lives with more value.....a life is worth $15 in the reptile industry (unless you are special but that only lasts for so long)....that is what stuff like this lottery makes me realize. For $200, I could buy 10 savannah monitors and 10 ball pythons....and just throw a party! Who care if I kill half of them and keep the rest in 10 gallon aquariums for the rest of their days....at least the importer made money.

It is pitiful that these animals are worth so little...

..but hey, what can you do? Ask the importers to charge more so people don't view these animals as disposable? Don't import so many?.....ha ha.....but that would take money out of their pockets....or would it? If only one crate of 1000 ball pythons was imported each year, what would the price be then? $100 each? $200 each? more? Would spending $200 on an animal make people care for them more? Sure the brand names that get their jollies from selling improper husbandry equipment might take a big hit....but would the importers lose money?

Sorry for the ranting and random spitting of words........I have just seen 1 too many animals that no one cares for.....maybe there is a solution....maybe there isn't....it is everyones' fault that things are the way they are....no one takes more blame than the other....I have even contributed bits to downgrading these animals to a pricetag.....no more though.....I just can't stomach it.

So far from what 2 people posted I think one got 20 animals, and got 8.12 The other one got 6.4
That's about 50/50 split. I know it's only two bags, but that's all I've seen so far.
Daniel, I don't want any animal to be considered disposable. I worry over people who breed cornsnakes and sell those for $10 each. I worry over people who give away puppies and kittens.
I think since I've seen the baby ball pythons at shows priced at anywhere from $15 to $30 apeice, it seems more like a "market price" and it doesn't seem as cheap to me. But then, those $10 cornsnakes are also priced at a typical market too.
The best thing to do in my opinion is to educate the buying public. A lot of buyers today will look for captive born and bred animals, becuase of the education efforts and telling person after person that getting a well-started animal that's eating already is easier for a newbie.
I don't worry as much over the "lottery" sales because of #1 whos running them(this time) and #2 they are marketed more towards hobbiests and breeders, not the general public. If you were selling unopened bags in a pet store and saying "Hey you could get an albino!" well... that's a bit far over the edge to me. Selling bags inside the reptile community and saying "You could find something neat" is I guess not over the line to me.
How many breeders sell the normals out of their clutchs each year for $20 or less? Should they be forced to raise the price? Or is it that you think because they've hatched those snakes they will somehow care more for where they go? What about big breeders that produce hundreds? What about small breeders who produce well over their ability to house? I'd really like your honest opinion of these too, as they are also forms of disposable ball pythons.
I respect where you are coming from, and it's always good to have someone focused on any one section of an overall problem. I think you are overestimating the amount of money made on these bags, but if you don't have to water, feed and house them, they do cost less overhead. But are they higher priced when they've been housed, fed, and watered? Normally yeah, they are. Instead of $15 each, they might be $25 each. If you want a healthy eating individual snake, then the bags are not the way to go. I think the allure is in the idea that we(the general herping public) would have the opportunity to "go through the imported snakes" in a tiny way. We might never get a opportunity to look at a crate load of babies fresh in and pick out some for ourselves, but by buying one unopened bag, we sort of get to experiance it in a smaller way.
Importing baby ballpythons will likely always be a controversial subject, with some people always for it, and others always against it. It follows over to other species where some NEED imports for fresh blood, and can't get them, and others are endangered in the wild and NEED to be unharvested so populations can rebuild.
Wolfy

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I think you are overestimating the amount of money made on these bags

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You do? What are you basing this on?

I'm basing it on what I've been told by the importers. Nothing moe, which is why I said "I think.." and not "You're wrong". Importing and selling cheap doesn't seem like a huge money scheme to me. As stated by people involved, they buy the huge quanties to get access to the cool stuff.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Daniel, I don't want any animal to be considered disposable. I worry over people who breed cornsnakes and sell those for $10 each. I worry over people who give away puppies and kittens.

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Of course you don't want any animal to be considered disposable.....I don't think anyone with a bit of conscience would actually want them to be labeled as 'disposable'. However, the low cost of the animals makes them 'disposable'. If you lost $15 in cash, how would you feel? Sure you might be a little pissed, but hey...it is only $15. Now make it $75, any differnce? What about $100? To some people, tossing out a deprived baby ball python is the same as tossing stale potato chips....some are even worse though....they would sell the stale potato chips.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I think since I've seen the baby ball pythons at shows priced at anywhere from $15 to $30 apeice, it seems more like a "market price" and it doesn't seem as cheap to me. But then, those $10 cornsnakes are also priced at a typical market too.

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What does 'market price' have to do with it? I pay 'market price' for gas....It is a shame that something living has a 'market price'.....unless you are talking lobsters or crawfish......but at least people eat those after they kill them. I have seen ball pythons literally sold by the pound....now we are talking cows...but at least those make for a good bbq.

Market price....LMAO. The people make 'the market'. If the people value something little....the price is low. The price speaks for the people.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

The best thing to do in my opinion is to educate the buying public. A lot of buyers today will look for captive born and bred animals, becuase of the education efforts and telling person after person that getting a well-started animal that's eating already is easier for a newbie.

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Agreed! Education is great in all aspects. The more smart people the better ;)

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I don't worry as much over the "lottery" sales because of #1 whos running them(this time) and #2 they are marketed more towards hobbiests and breeders, not the general public. If you were selling unopened bags in a pet store and saying "Hey you could get an albino!" well... that's a bit far over the edge to me. Selling bags inside the reptile community and saying "You could find something neat" is I guess not over the line to me.

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Marketed towards hobbiest and breeders? LMAO...."Hello, this is Ralph Davis, I would like 10 chances at winning it big"....You need to be more specific. It is marketed towards beginning hobbiest and beginning breeders....no person that has been in the 'game' for a while needs to 'play the lottery'...they already know where to get the good stuff.

And actually, the marketing stratergy does not bother me at all....the fact that it is applied to living animals is what gets me. I guess ball pythons are getting harder to sell by presenting a quality animal....more intense marketing is needed.

I can't wait for the "Buy 10 get 2 free" or "Buy 100 and you get a free box of steaks"......

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

How many breeders sell the normals out of their clutchs each year for $20 or less? Should they be forced to raise the price? Or is it that you think because they've hatched those snakes they will somehow care more for where they go? What about big breeders that produce hundreds? What about small breeders who produce well over their ability to house? I'd really like your honest opinion of these too, as they are also forms of disposable ball pythons.

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Now we are going to bring breeders into the mess. Like I said before EVERYONE is responsible.....breeders just as much a importers. Should they be forced to raise the price? Maybe you should ask, were they forced to lower the price because of the cheap imports being offered? If imports went for $50 each, do you still think the breeders would sell normals for $20? But after all....it is about the money. And "people have eyes bigger than their stomachs".....If you are a hobbiest and don't have the ability to house all the offspring you intend to produce, DON'T BREED YOUR SNAKES. Is that a hard concept? Must be...people seem to misunderstand that alot. The breeders producing hundreds....then they have to sell hundreds correct? Why aren't people willing to fork up a few extra dollars to buy CBB normals from breeders? Instead of dealing with the lottery, why not call up a breeder and pick up TEN CBB normals from him....hell....there would probably be a few het males in the bunch....almost like a lottery, but not quite there. The sick fact is that more production equals more money.....after all....a life is only worth $15....if it is a little more valueable due to being CBB, so be it.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I respect where you are coming from, and it's always good to have someone focused on any one section of an overall problem. I think you are overestimating the amount of money made on these bags, but if you don't have to water, feed and house them, they do cost less overhead. But are they higher priced when they've been housed, fed, and watered? Normally yeah, they are. Instead of $15 each, they might be $25 each. If you want a healthy eating individual snake, then the bags are not the way to go. I think the allure is in the idea that we(the general herping public) would have the opportunity to "go through the imported snakes" in a tiny way. We might never get a opportunity to look at a crate load of babies fresh in and pick out some for ourselves, but by buying one unopened bag, we sort of get to experiance it in a smaller way.

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I am not focusing on any one section....I see it all across the board....all you have to do is open your eyes and observe. I love to see people excited about reptiles....remember when you were a kid and the idea of just having a snake thrilled you. Now we all grew up and get our jollies by playing a 'lottery'.....ha ha....I guess people have just gotten spoiled....If I took away all your 'toys' and left you with one normal male ball python....would you be happy? It seems that alot of people are screaming "more,more,more"......all fun and games if you are talking ice cream cones...but live animals...don't they call that some sort of condition?

However, I do see other parts of the hobby where animals are actually valued....not with a 'market price'...but with a non-monetary value that the keeper gives the animals. That is what I like to see....with any animal.

Opening a bag similar to the experiance of opening a crate?...Neal already said that they are nothing alike....there is a big differece between 10 and 5400...

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Importing baby ball pythons will likely always be a controversial subject, with some people always for it, and others always against it. It follows over to other species where some NEED imports for fresh blood, and can't get them, and others are endangered in the wild and NEED to be unharvested so populations can rebuild.

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Sure some imports are "needed" for our selfish reasons.....but that is our issue.

And importing is not really controversial to me....it is what is done after importation that gets my undies twisted.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Lets get real here. This wasn't a lottery. It doesn't even resemble a lottery. A lottery involves there being a set winner or winners out of all who participate.

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You are somewhat incorrect. Lotteries go on for weeks/months and no one wins and there are no "set" winners. I think you are confusing a lottery with a raffle, to very different animals. A lottery you can and others can participate for months even years and never win. No such thing as a set winner in a lottery, raffle yes lottery no.

And bags of bp's could go on for weeks/months and no one find a special one. And one day "poof" out pops a low grade morph.

Websters version of a lottery:" A scheme ( hmm...seems I have seen that word pop up here ) for the distribution of prizes by lot or chance."

Prize, I think everyone would be different as to what a "prize" is, some may think in order to be a winner in the bp lottery they would have to get an albino, others may consider the "prize" a couple of females, while still others may think a "prize" is a unusal normal.

Again while I don't agree w/ said lottery it is still a lottery plain and simple.

Excellent post Daniel.:sweeet:

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Originally Posted by pfan151

Where are you getting this 60%-70% males number???? Overall you will get about 50/50. The exporters do not care the sex of these snakes. Even the big importers can't request to get only females so why would the bags not be on average 50/50? How many bags of ch snakes have you ever opened and sexed? You seem pretty sure of yourself.

Why are you so against the unopened bag thing? No one said their is a great shot at finding something special. People are getting nice healthy animals for $15 each. What's the problem?

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the numbers are a guess(made up) by me just for kicks.

i'm not into flippin imports, i just buy what i like.

you are correct, the ratio SHOULD be 50/50 we'll see:rolleyes:

i don't buy unopened bags, i buy what i want to keep.

i'm not against the "unopened bags" the importer knows what they ordered and the exporter knows full well what they packed.

early ch normals this year are going for 7-10 bucks a piece. flipping them for 15 a piece without even seeing or caring for them, not my cup of tea.

to each their own


vaughn

I split this discussion off from Neil's original picture thread. Since it has remained relatively civil, I've left it in its primary forum...but if it gets out of hand, we can move it to the Quarantine Room.

Now...to comment on topic:

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I think the point that has been beaten to death is the way it was marketed, and making such a big deal about such a slim chance to get more than you pay for is, in my opinion, teetering on being deceptive. Period. Others might have a different opinion, and we're all entitled to that. I'm not sure why the argument keeps going on...

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Personally, I don't think using the term "lottery" in their advertisement was "Making a big deal" out of anything. It was a descriptive term for the process of ordering a bag of imported ball pythons sight unseen.

The "big deal" was made by all the vehement protests that brought the whole issue to light for a LOT of people who would never have even noticed it otherwise.

That's just my personal observation. Make of it what you will.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jotay

You are somewhat incorrect. Lotteries go on for weeks/months and no one wins and there are no "set" winners. I think you are confusing a lottery with a raffle, to very different animals. A lottery you can and others can participate for months even years and never win. No such thing as a set winner in a lottery, raffle yes lottery no.

Again while I don't agree w/ said lottery it is still a lottery plain and simple.

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Last time I checked, REAL lotteries have REAL odds that are calculated scientifically.

The "odds" that Neil came up with were based on his own personal experience and while the sample sizes seem pretty large, 5400 this year according to him, they are a far cry from being scientific. There isn't even a specific "winning ticket" either, everyone's definition of a win is probably different in this case. You call that a lottery?

I'll stick with "not a lottery." ;)

Let me make it simple...

All i think they meant by "lottery" was that you have a chance to find something cool. They never said a morph or anything like that... just have a "chance" to find something neat. He also said in his ad that people can act like the importer, you know how many times people tell me they wish the could through all the balls with me each year. This is Mikes way of letting people do it on their own in a very small way. Remeber Mikes pays for ALL the bags whether they get sold or not... he also deals with importing them (which is a whole new pain in itself) and shipping them to customers. So basically MIKE is taking all the real chances and offering people a fair "chance" to find something neat. Also his bag prices are LOW for only a 10 lot of un -opened bags Most importers wont even let you get an un opened 10 lot!. Most un-opened lots are usually the whole crate 200 - 250 animals.

So basically we can solve this problem by...

1. If you like his "lottery" go ahead and get some
2. If you do NOT like his "lottery" dont buy any!

Basically i think Mike is doing something very cool for people out there, ( i think hes nuts for not going through them all ) no other importers are willing to or have done anything like this for the smaller breeders. Before your only choice was buy 200 c.h. (which is worse in my opinion since most people cant hold 200, but they CAN hold 10 ) or buy the fancies we find...

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Originally Posted by neilgolli

Brad, there is absolutely no doubt that some africans are breeding balls over there. Noha is breeding hundreds of animals and he has been grabing all kinds of cool stuff for a few years. However keep in mind that 100,000 animals a year come to the US from africa and in the US there are very very very few breeders even producing 1000 animals. 99.9% are farmed babies and a lot of things are grabbed and sold for more however to think that they grab everything is being over optomistic. Think of looking at thousands and thousands of snakes after awhile they all look alike. Now imagin half of them are deep in shed. Things slip in.

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Who is Noha? My name is Noha but i'm a female...LOL that's funny :rolleyes:
:P

I personally had a great experience with the lottery from Mike. I didn't order a bag to get a cool snake for cheap, or a morph. I did it becuase it is fun to get something that could be anything. You don't know what you will see when you open the bag. They are all beautiful babies, and 2 I am keeping because they really stand out to me as nice fancies.
Thank you guys for this opportunity :)

wow, no offense to anyone but reading this totally made me glaze over and not really care. ok, so maybe calling it a lottery was a bad idea, but if you don't like it ignore it, what's the big deal. If only common sense were more common this would not even be an issue. I understand the fear of disposable animals but what about homie that buys a cheap CH at a show and decides it's too much of a pain to deal with, there's no real difference between the two? Either way you'll have stupid mindless people abusing the animals they originally promised to care for. This is kind of just becoming bickering now because I don't understand how this is hurting the people who have the most trouble with it. There have been some great opinion posts but there has also, as I just said, been so useless bickering.

Personally I think an unopened bag of 10 snakes would be like christmas because it will be a surprise what you get, but at the same time I'd be looking for fun little girls and boys not some silly way to strike it rich. Sure there's a way for the more valued morphs to slip through but I wouldn't be looking for that. If I want that I'll go spend my money on it.
And Brad, you're lucky because clearly you haven't had any terribly monotonous jobs because if you had, you would totally understand how things slip through the cracks.