My luck is on a steady decline :(

I just cleaned out my tank less than a week ago. With soap, bleachlike products, glass cleaner etc., changed mulch, washed the hides...everything I could ever imagine doing...and then last night I noticed something odd.

I have this little yellowish-brown little things moving on the sidewalls of the glass. I killed everyone I saw. Checked my snake and none seem to be on him. Then i went looking for what they might be. Read the VPI tick info...and well I dont think they 100% match the description, but more than likely they are.

How can I get rid of them before they do start messing with my snake. I really dont want to dump all the mulch that I just got.

And curious as to how they just appear. Havent had a problem since I have had my snake, but I use a new type of bark this time and I get this (Repti-Bark)

Please help.

Personally i would loose the mulch and put white paper towels. Also you might want to go ahead and order you a can of PAM.... Just in case...

x2 PAM is the best.


You say you don't want to waste all that mulch. How big is your tank that you would be wasting that much anyway? You don't really need anything deeper than an inch or so and even that is plenty.

What is PAM?

I have a 30Breeder 36x18x12. It needs about 12Quarts = $20. Naturally wouldnt mind changing, if I didnt just do it last week.

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

What is PAM?

I have a 30Breeder 36x18x12. It needs about 12Quarts = $20. Naturally wouldnt mind changing, if I didnt just do it last week.

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PAM = Prevent - A - Mite

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

PAM = Prevent - A - Mite

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OOO sounds like that is exactly what I need. Can it be used on top of my setup or would I still have to clean it out before using? And do they sell that at big time pet stores (PetCo Petsmart)?

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

OOO sounds like that is exactly what I need. Can it be used on top of my setup or would I still have to clean it out before using? And do they sell that at big time pet stores (PetCo Petsmart)?

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I haven't seen it at major stores but you might could find it. It can be used as a prevention or as a treatment if you have mites.. Great stuff.

How often do you change your bedding? You have one of the most expensive choices for bedding.

You can buy Provent-A-Mite at http://www.entirelypets.com

I've never seen it in Petco or Petsmart. Follow directions on the can EXACTLY - treat the enclosure, not the snake.

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Originally Posted by tmlowe5704

How often do you change your bedding? You have one of the most expensive choices for bedding.

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Change about every 3-4 weeks. I used to have much cheaper stuff...but I was on the Zoo-Meds site and they said the Repti-Bark is reusable just soak in very hot water...I was thinking of it as a way to save money...so was gonna give it a try.

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

Change about every 3-4 weeks. I used to have much cheaper stuff...but I was on the Zoo-Meds site and they said the Repti-Bark is reusable just soak in very hot water...I was thinking of it as a way to save money...so was gonna give it a try.

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Soaking in very hot water is not going to disinfect your bedding - dispose of it and replace it with new every time you clean your enclosure.

if you really wanna keep your substrate that badly, why don't you take it out, put it in an airtight container and spray it with that walmart bed bug spray or whatever that stuff is. Then put newspaper in the cage and PAM that. If it were me and the choices were 20 dollars worth of substrate or the health of my collection, pretty sure that wouldn't be a hard choice. Just a thought on options.

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

if you really wanna keep your substrate that badly, why don't you take it out, put it in an airtight container and spray it with that walmart bed bug spray or whatever that stuff is. Then put newspaper in the cage and PAM that. If it were me and the choices were 20 dollars worth of substrate or the health of my collection, pretty sure that wouldn't be a hard choice. Just a thought on options.

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Will give it a try.

You can also bake the substrate in the oven, 250* for 30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by waldo

You can also bake the substrate in the oven, 250* for 30 minutes.

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that too, personally I use newspaper as I don't wanna leave anything to chance and I've only had mites once, from a wc candoia, and since then I would rather waste money on new substrate if there's a problem (when I do use bark of some sort) but mainly I just use old newspaper and I change it rather often, meaning any time it's soiled or even just wet. But really husbandry shouldn't be about luck at all, with that said, good luck on getting things under control.

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

But really husbandry shouldn't be about luck at all, with that said, good luck on getting things under control.

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I'd have to agree - good husbandry has nothing to do with "luck".

Also--if cost AND cleanliness is a concern--you can't go wrong with newspaper for substrate! It's cost-effective and clean :)

Edit: It also doesn't sound like the bugs you're describing are MITES (as in BP-mites), but probably some sort of wood-bugs you got in the substrate you bought. You could try baking the substrate. Or, as I said prior--use newspaper from here on out :)

Everyone seems to love provent a mite. Personally I hate the stuff. I think it's too strong for what it's needed for. It definatly kills mites, but it kills other stuff too and for a very long time. I've killed mites, crickets, fruitflies, golddust day geckos, leopard geckos and even bullsnakes with it. No, I've never lost any ball pythons with it, but with the other stuff I've killed with it I gotta wonder what the long term effects could be.

And yes, before anyone starts flinging the accusations, I followed the label directions TO THE LETTER.

Personally I'll keep using sevin dust.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Everyone seems to love provent a mite. Personally I hate the stuff. I think it's too strong for what it's needed for. It definatly kills mites, but it kills other stuff too and for a very long time. I've killed mites, crickets, fruitflies, golddust day geckos, leopard geckos and even bullsnakes with it. No, I've never lost any ball pythons with it, but with the other stuff I've killed with it I gotta wonder what the long term effects could be.

And yes, before anyone starts flinging the accusations, I followed the label directions TO THE LETTER.

Personally I'll keep using sevin dust.

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That sucks man sorry to hear that...I think I agree with Azure..they dont appear to be mites and dont mess with the snake at all.

Gonna bake first...before i attempt the other things...Any advice on that? Never baked mulch before...and I REALLY dont want to end up baking my apartment as well...after bake how long should it sit? When I replace im guessing I should spray with water...

I don't use mulches anymore because they are always carrying little bugs. They probably won't harm my snakes but who wants little buggys runing around enclosure and home! Also if you get used to seeing wood bugs you may not pay attention or notice mites if you do get them. Aspen seems to get everywhere and makes clean up time consuming. Now I use newspaper for most of my collection and paper towels for my little guys and quarantines.

Newspaper rocks! Clean and easy to clean, no messy substrate all over the floor and no spot cleaning - when the enclosure is clean, it's truly clean!

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Everyone seems to love provent a mite. Personally I hate the stuff. I think it's too strong for what it's needed for. It definatly kills mites, but it kills other stuff too and for a very long time. I've killed mites, crickets, fruitflies, golddust day geckos, leopard geckos and even bullsnakes with it. No, I've never lost any ball pythons with it, but with the other stuff I've killed with it I gotta wonder what the long term effects could be.

And yes, before anyone starts flinging the accusations, I followed the label directions TO THE LETTER.

Personally I'll keep using sevin dust.

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Rough man, sorry to hear it, but two things if you don't mind me saying... The first is, isn't sevin dust a lot more toxic? or did i make that up. Also, for some reason, I don't know why I would make this differentiation, but honestly I would never use PAM around my geckos... yet I use it for my snakes all the time. I have no idea how that makes any sense to me, but it does, maybe just sheer body size, and the fact that geckos lick a lot, I dunno.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Newspaper rocks! Clean and easy to clean, no messy substrate all over the floor and no spot cleaning - when the enclosure is clean, it's truly clean!

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Ok, I haft to ask.... cause I think it every time I see people that are happy with newspaper, doesn't the ink rub off onto your snakes? I knew a lady that kept a cockatoo on newspaper... below the grate of the cage, the bird never had contact with the paper....and it was always dingy looking. Like grey from the ink. I'm by no means saying it's bad for snakes because I see people post that they are really happy with it. Just curious about the rub off??? I use aspen, and it's a big ol' mess! But I do like the option to "spot clean" between complete changes.

Yes, it can and does rub off on the snake, especially when wet - but there's always unprinted newspaper as an option!

Gotcha! Thanks Robin :sunny: I read about the unprinted and craft paper. I was just mostly curious if snakes didn't pick up the ink, like us silly humans with all these pours in our skin!

I think the can actually has a warning now about not using it around geckos. I don't think it did early on and I did spray some leopard gecko tubs many years ago. However, I've also lost some leopard geckos that weren't sprayed, I just used a tub that had originally held snakes, even though I washed it and scrubbed it before reuse (I figured this one out when the crickets I was feeding them died off as well) . The day geckos weren't sprayed, they were just on the shelf above the tubs that I had sprayed and allowed to dry OUTSIDE of the room. Their fruit fly colonies that were sitting on the shelf next to them died off too.

The bullsnakes I was very surprised about since they were the only snakes I've lost this way. I had 4 hatchling bullsnakes whose tubs I had treated, two of them died and two appeared to develop neurological damage, spinning and twisting in funny ways, most of which disappeared within a couple of months. I think the reason the bullsnakes had it so rough is because baby bullsnakes will hiss and puff themselves up when they feel threatened (which seems to be most of the time) and they probably drew the residual fumes more deeply into their lungs. Bullsnakes also seem to have a higher metabolism then other snakes, so that might have something to do with it too.

As far as using sevin dust, I think the poisons used are similar, (the sevin dust actually says you can use it as a flea and tick powder on your dogs and cats) but the applications are very different. The sevin dust is just a dry dust that is easy to wash out and get rid of when you're done with it. The PAM is an oily spray that seems to last forever. I remember using a pet pal pet carrier once to buy crickets at a pet store. They were all dead by the time I got them home. Then I remembered using that pet carrier as a quaranteen tank that I had used PAM in MONTHS previously. I had washed and rinsed it out, but apparently not good enough because it was still strong enough to kill bugs many months later.

I guess the moral of the story is that any kind of poison is dangerous and different species can react to it in different ways. None of these chemicals should be taken lightly.

Mark

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Ok, I haft to ask.... cause I think it every time I see people that are happy with newspaper, doesn't the ink rub off onto your snakes?

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Yup, it does. Thats why I buy unprinted newspaper rolls from uline

http://www.uline.com/ProductDetail.asp?model=S-2463


Mark

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Yup, it does. Thats why I buy unprinted newspaper rolls from uline

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really? i never knew that.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I guess the moral of the story is that any kind of poison is dangerous and different species can react to it in different ways. None of these chemicals should be taken lightly.

Mark

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Mark...this is obviously a very difficult subject to talk about, and I'm very sorry for the loss of your animals. It can also be very difficult to give a negative report against a popular product that has worked so well for so many. And I just wanted to thank you for presenting your experiences in such a dispassionate and factual manner.

It's information like this, presented in this manner, that allows people a chance to really learn and make informed choices. For me personally, I'll still choose to use P-A-M...but I'll do so with a lot more caution and mind toward future consequences. I would not have learned that from someone ranting about how much they hate something and expecting everyone who reads it to understand why.

I was gonna say all this in a pos rep comment...but it was a bit too long. ;)

Thank you Judy, a lot of these experiences of mine are from several years ago, and I did continue to use PAM for many years even after losing a number of geckos. I've only had mite infestations twice in my life, but I regularily used the product prophylactically on new additions to my collection that were in quaranteen.

However the bullsnake incident really came as a surprise to me. That was kind of the straw that broke the camels back and it was at that point I decided to go back to using something milder that may not be AS effective on mites, but also hadn't killed any of my animals either.

It's always good to know what other peoples experiences are, both the good and the bad, in order to make a more informed decision for yourself.

Mark