thrilled new BP owner - first problem. Help!

We had a boa when I was a kid and a few months ago out of nowhere I decided I wanted a snake. I went to a well-established exotic pet store in town and walked out with an approximately 5 month old male BP.

Things have gone great and we're absolutely in love with the little guy. Everything I read suggests that he's a model BP - in that he never has those problems.
* He always eats right away.
* He exhibits no aggressive behavior even when disturbed at bad times (post-feed, in-blue, pre-poop).
* I took him back in after a few months and the guy at the pet store said he looked great - and I couldn't disagree.

But....his behavior has changed in the last month.

When I first got him he would come out of his hide box every night at about 10pm or so like clockwork and cruise his cage. He'd often lay stretched out in a location that made him easy to pick up and would make no effort to prevent it. In fact, he would sort of lie real still as you put your hand in as if he was co-operating with you. The only times he would stay holed up were:
* 2-3 day break post-feed.
* roughly 7 days for shed cycle.
* 2 days pre-poop. And, he was always extra active after the poops.
We went through several feeds, two or three poops, and one shed this way.

Then after one of his feeds his normal digestion period went by and no Snakey. After a couple more days I inspected him and he was in-blue. So then I waited until he shed about a week later and still no Snakey. I inspected him again and he was getting fat at his vent. So then I waited a few more days and sure enough, he pooped. But then he just continued being reclusive for good!!

I've fed him since and he ate just fine. We moved his cage to a quieter part of the house. I checked his temperatures and his cage was a bit cool so I corrected that. But he still just hides out all the time! If I open his hide box he'll ball up but as soon as I take him out he relaxes right away. I can hold him just like before and when I put him back he remains active for the night.

So my angst is coming from the fact that I always have to extract him from his hide box now.

Am I being too uptight? Many people don't seem to think it matters to much when you pull them out.

He always seemed kind of fun when I had him out but the "Ball Python Manual" has me scared that he's stressed out whenever he moves around.

Am I crazy? Am I doing something wrong?

I'm fairly sure the rule of thumb is: "a secretive BP is a happy BP". Most of them spend the majority of their time chilling in a hide. Mine really only comes out at 2AM or so (and I'm almost always asleep--the few times I' haven't been asleep were the ones where I saw him out and about). I know he comes out anyway, because he likes to knock things over :)

They're nocturnal and secretive, so it sounds to me like you've just got a happy boy :) I wouldn't sweat about it too much.

He sounds content :) They're really not that active. Mine is a total bum, only leaves the hide to poop and eat.

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Originally Posted by darkangel

He sounds content :) They're really not that active. Mine is a total bum, only leaves the hide to poop and eat.

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Exactly how my male is...lazy bum....damn am I jealous... :8:

Yea, that's what the guy at the pet store keeps saying. I think he's getting sick of me....

Ok, so what about handling? I've mostly read "Handle them a little bit daily" all the way up to "He's my best friend and we hang out together all the time."

I love holding him and letting cruise around (supervised, of course). But, "The Ball Python Manual" is ultra conservative on the subject. They say eventually you can handle them "occasionally for short periods" and suggest that movement by the snake while being held is a sign of discomfort. :( I'd live to hear some more testimonials on this subject!

Only time I touch mine is to take him out to weigh him before each meal, other that, hes in his hides.

Just to be safe...what is your setup like? Temps, humidity, hides, cage size, substrate. Check the basics...you have had him long enough that a sudden change in routine is worth looking at all the basics again. :)

I hold my little guys maybe 3 times a week. I let him sit in my lap or in my arms, and I keep him out until he gets really squirmy, which is usually about 15 minutes. I've also noticed if I took him out everyday of the week, he likely won't eat for me that week. You have to find a comfortable medium between your desire to handle him and what he will tolerate without getting stressed out.

I've only had Auryn for about 3 months. From my observations with him, he'll be quite content to sit still for awhile--and when he starts zooming around/getting fidgety I know that he's getting uncomfortable and wants to find somewhere safe to hide (He's usually zooming/fidgeting toward anything that looks dark and safe). I don't really ever have him out longer than 20 minutes. Once he starts getting zoomy, I put him back and he zips right into one of his hides :)

EDIT: I've also noticed a difference between Auryn moving around to explore and Auryn zooming around because he's getting nervous/uncomfortable.

Yea, he does have a sort of "chilled out" period when you first take him out and then eventually he starts getting more active. One thing we do is put a temporary hide in the area over a heating pad on low. Once he gets squirmy we let him cruise in there for a while. He eventually comes out and explores some more.

lord jackel:
Yes, the change is what drives me nuts. I have regularly improved his cage both for his sake and for aethesic reasons. I started out with the recycled paper substrate, an upside down coaster holder for a hide, and a cool rock I found in my backyard (and boiled for safety), and a little water dish.
Over time I've made the following changes:

* I switched to a spagnum/fir substrate
* Got a big water dish he could fit in and half covered it with a peice of cork bark. I also moved his dish to sit on the warm side next to his hide.
* I changed his hide to be an upside down peice of curled cork bark with pete moss to fill in the walls. This is right next to his water dish so he can snake back and forth easily.
* I got him this really cool peice of grape wood that has all sorts of ways to crawl on.
* I started misting his cage about once a day. He really seems to like drinking the droplets off the cage walls.

I've always had a 50W red heat lamp on most of the time. He's always had an under-tank heater.

The floor of the warm side it about 82-87 degrees. I keep the bedding very thin in his hide to let the undertank heat come through. I imagine its 90deg at least because sometimes when I take him out he feels about the same temperature as a person that's been under blankets. Nice and warm... (I should measure it though).

I just got a Hydrogemeter (sp?) that says about 50% but I don't have much confidence in it yet.

Perhaps he didn't like his cage at first and now he's happy and acting normal? Its pretty sweet compared to the pet store.

Also, thanks alot to everybody who's replied (or replies later)!!! I really appreciate the help!

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Yea, he does have a sort of "chilled out" period when you first take him out and then eventually he starts getting more active. One thing we do is put a temporary hide in the area over a heating pad on low. Once he gets squirmy we let him cruise in there for a while. He eventually comes out and explores some more.

lord jackel:
Yes, the change is what drives me nuts. I have regularly improved his cage both for his sake and for aethesic reasons. I started out with the recycled paper substrate, an upside down coaster holder for a hide, and a cool rock I found in my backyard (and boiled for safety), and a little water dish.
Over time I've made the following changes:

* I switched to a spagnum/fir substrate
* Got a big water dish he could fit in and half covered it with a peice of cork bark. I also moved his dish to sit on the warm side next to his hide.
* I changed his hide to be an upside down peice of curled cork bark with pete moss to fill in the walls. This is right next to his water dish so he can snake back and forth easily.
* I got him this really cool peice of grape wood that has all sorts of ways to crawl on.
* I started misting his cage about once a day. He really seems to like drinking the droplets off the cage walls.

I've always had a 50W red heat lamp on most of the time. He's always had an under-tank heater.

The floor of the warm side it about 82-87 degrees. I keep the bedding very thin in his hide to let the undertank heat come through. I imagine its 90deg at least because sometimes when I take him out he feels about the same temperature as a person that's been under blankets. Nice and warm... (I should measure it though).

I just got a Hydrogemeter (sp?) that says about 50% but I don't have much confidence in it yet.

Perhaps he didn't like his cage at first and now he's happy and acting normal? Its pretty sweet compared to the pet store.

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WOW...those are some massive changes...I would agree for the better. You have added a lot of items that increase the humidity...if you are just reading 50% now then my guess is you were really low before or it is way wrong. Is the sensor digital or one of these stick on types? Either way you need to be sure...if it is wrong and too high you risk an RI.

Maybe I missed something in reading your posts but how are you measuring temps in the cage? Also you say the warm side is 82-87 and you keep the substrate thin in his hide and you imagine it is 90?
You may want to get an accurite temp gauge which will monitor you cool side and hot side and humidity all in one unit. ( Walmart,Lowes carries the unit for about 12-15 dollars) Warm side should be at least 90

Other than that if he is eating ok, he sounds like he has justed settled in and feels safe in his home.

I forget the brand (and don't have it handy). Its a stick on type that appears to work on a metal coil (like my thermometer). I still can't figure out how you can measure humidity with a metal coil.

I forgot to add a change - to increase the temperate I cut off most of the airflow on the warm side. There is about a 4 inch vent on top of the cool side as well as some various holes here and there around the heat lamp.

So, the humidity is 50% at the cool-side vent. I only got it today and haven't had a chance to measure down in hot side. I'm trying to see if the thing actually works first! I imagine its more humid in there because of the heated water dish and moisture retaining peet moss. He used to soak for days solid but once I put more peet moss in and started daily mistings he cut that out and stays in his regular hide now.

I have this basic metal-coil thermometer that is round and meant to stick to the cage. The pet store people said don't stick it to the cage just set it in there. So I just prop it up somewhere in the warm side. The center of the thermometer sits about 3/4 inch above the surface.

Here we go. I have all Exo-Terra stuff.

"Heat-wave" under tank heater (takes up a little more than a third of a long 20 gallon).

Also, thermometer and hydogemeter.

Stick on types are very inaccurite. You need to get rid of those and get a accurite type of unit. It is a compact digital unit that shows indoor/outdoor temps and humidity. The unit itself measures the in ( cool side ) and humidity and then it has a probe you can run over to the hot side to measure the out temp ( hot side ).
I would try to upgrade as soon as you can. Then check your temps.
Your temps/humidity may be way off now and could be a reason for the change in your bp.

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Originally Posted by jotay

Stick on types are very inaccurite. You need to get rid of those and get a accurite type of unit. It is a compact digital unit that shows indoor/outdoor temps and humidity. The unit itself measures the in ( cool side ) and humidity and then it has a probe you can run over to the hot side to measure the out temp ( hot side ).
I would try to upgrade as soon as you can. Then check your temps.
Your temps/humidity may be way off now and could be a reason for the change in your bp.

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Can you recommend some products?

They make a brand called "accurite" it can be found at Walmart or Lowes , usually in the home/garden section. It sells for about 12-15 dollars and runs on a single aaa battery. It is like folks use in thier homes to check temps etc.

Do a search under " accurite" and in some of the threads people have posted a pic of what it looks like.
Hope this helps

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Originally Posted by jotay

Other than that if he is eating ok, he sounds like he has justed settled in and feels safe in his home.

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Yea, all bad BP tales seem to involve hunger strike. I guess I'll just rely on that as a good affirmation of his happiness.

Well I feel tons better and will continue to improve his home. I'm sure my $70 snake will eventually live in a $1000 house :) He just so stinkin' cute!

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Originally Posted by darkangel

He sounds content :) They're really not that active. Mine is a total bum, only leaves the hide to poop and eat.

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Mine too, i know he moves around though because he's always in his cooler hide, but i find his poop in the warmer hide, sometimes i just catch the end of his tail going back into his hide. I rarely see him out and about. When i move him to clean his cage he's just all over the place though. It's cool! :carrot:

Hey mine acts the same way hes such a bum sometimes, but now he loves the cool side he is always there I keep the temps anywhere from 80 to 83 on the cool side, I have noticed on thing thoe when its low 80's cool side he goes up on the tree and hides in between the branches sometimes I peek in both hides and get scared wondering where he went, lol the first time I saw him gone I freaked! but yea mine acts the same I guess its just a BP thing.

Also that accurite from walmart is sweet I bought a couple of those so I have one for my next bp so that he can be monitored accuretly. They are really cheap. :2cent:

This is the AcuRite digital thermometer you can pick up at Walmart for $12, usually in the hardware department:


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...mageloader.gif

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I have this basic metal-coil thermometer that is round and meant to stick to the cage. The pet store people said don't stick it to the cage just set it in there. So I just prop it up somewhere in the warm side. The center of the thermometer sits about 3/4 inch above the surface.

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Those are junk (I think everyone I have ever tried all said 50% regardless of the truth :D )...several people have posted about Accurite (from Walmart) which is digital and much much better.

You really need to be sure what the humidity is...even if she is eating good now. You don't want her not feeding one day to be your indicator that something is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Mighty Monty

Mine too, i know he moves around though because he's always in his cooler hide, but i find his poop in the warmer hide, sometimes i just catch the end of his tail going back into his hide. I rarely see him out and about. When i move him to clean his cage he's just all over the place though. It's cool! :carrot:

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Yea, its awesome when they come out to do their thing.

I'm definately going to pick up one of those Accurite things. I hope they're not too big because I've spent alot of time making his cage good looking as well as functional. Somehow that Accurite doesn't look like its going to match the outdoorsy theme I've got going :)

Another thing I'm considering is the cool-side hide. I was told not to do that because the snake might hang out in there too much - to his detriment.

Oh yea, I realized while reading another thread that there is one other thing that preceeded my BP's decline in activity: larger feeds. I was having a hard time consistently getting a "medium" size mouse from my pet store (which I'm guessing is a well developed juvenile). Often times, depending on who I was talking to, I was either offered this tiny thing (hopper) or an adult. I eventually gave up and settled on asking for a "small adult".

Boy, the first time the mouse didn't look that big until about the time my BP had it lined up and began swallowing. Then it looked huge and I got scared he was going to hurt himself. He had to work that sucker down and I was wringing my hands the whole time! Now, two feeds later he can pack one down no problem. But, I'm guessing it was a significant increase in calories for him. I was told they get more active as they get hungrier.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Another thing I'm considering is the cool-side hide. I was told not to do that because the snake might hang out in there too much - to his detriment.

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That's why you need two identical hides for each side... he'll choose temperature, not a preference of one hide over the other.

The accurites are certainly not meant to be "pretty" but it's worth it...

i would def have 2 hides, a cool one and a warm one. and its ideal that they be identical, so he doesn't choose one just cause it makes him feel more safe. i have 2 terra cotta pots with holes in the top. one day i'll check on him and he's in the cool one the next time he's in the warm one.

I see the reasoning - it makes good sense.

Since everything he has is natural (except his pool - er water dish) it will be a challenge but I think I can get very close. Also, I line the hide with peet moss. He likes to work the stuff into a sort of tight-fitting bed/blanket. Hopefully, he'll be able to keep both hides exactly to his liking this way.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

This is the AcuRite digital thermometer you can pick up at Walmart for $12, usually in the hardware department:


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...mageloader.gif

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I HIGHLY advise you spend the $12 dollars on the above thermometer. My friend used the below thermometer that gave him the appropriate temps, but was actually 30+ degrees off the actual temp inside his snakes hide. In the end we went today to the vet with his snake and had to have it put down because it was so far gone. If you want to read more of the story I'll attach a link to the thread. But the single most important item inside your snakes cage/vivarium/tub etc is a good thermometer. The second of which is two identical hides, one on each side of his set-up.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...258358079B.jpg

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=46472