First Cull...

I culled my first mouse today. A hopper for my corn phantom. They don't sell hoppers at any of the stores I went to, except for Petsmart for 4 something a piece. So I went to the local pet shop and picked out the smallest mouse they had and took it home with me. I put her in my CO2 chamber and watched her gasp alittle and 'sleep'.

It was sad to watch that. That I had to take a life...I keep telling myself it's to feed another, but still to watch it was sad. I wrapped her neatly in clear plastic wrap and put her in an air tight container and said a little mousey prayer for her.

:(

next time put it in a brown lunch bag and give it a good wack on the wall. It's faster for you and the mouse.

If that's sad, then I won't mention how I "cull" rats and mice.

That I dont' think i can do. What if I don't hit hard enough or end up breaking a little bone that their or don't really kill it all the way. I think the next one I cull I'll cover the container so I can't see it. Maybe.

Threads like this always seem to show some people for what they really are. To the original poster, we do what we have to as snake owners. It seems that you truly care about animals and have respect for the feeders. I wish I could say the same for others.

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Originally Posted by Reptilian

That I dont' think i can do. What if I don't hit hard enough or end up breaking a little bone that their or don't really kill it all the way. I think the next one I cull I'll cover the container so I can't see it. Maybe.

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Your method is much more humane. Ignore the whackers.

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Originally Posted by Reptilian

I culled my first mouse today. A hopper for my corn phantom. They don't sell hoppers at any of the stores I went to, except for Petsmart for 4 something a piece. So I went to the local pet shop and picked out the smallest mouse they had and took it home with me. I put her in my CO2 chamber and watched her gasp alittle and 'sleep'.

It was sad to watch that. That I had to take a life...I keep telling myself it's to feed another, but still to watch it was sad. I wrapped her neatly in clear plastic wrap and put her in an air tight container and said a little mousey prayer for her.

:(

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It is a necessary step (but you did it humanely...which isn't always the case as you see from others)

One comment slow down on how fast you put the CO2 into the container...they shouldn't "gasp" mine just lay down and fall to sleep. If they start gasping or panting it means the gas is going to fast and their suffocating.

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Originally Posted by slartibartfast

Your method is much more humane. Ignore the whackers.

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Yes because suffocation is much more humane :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

One comment slow down on how fast you put the CO2 into the container...they shouldn't "gasp" mine just lay down and fall to sleep. If they start gasping or panting it means the gas is going to fast and their suffocating.

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Damn...that's what I kinda figured. I'll keep it in mind to slow down on the CO2 next time.

Is there any possibility some of you could show a little common sense and maturity and choose not to intrude into this sort of thread with the "just whack it to death" stuff. If that's how you personally choose to put a living animal down then so be it. Layna obviously felt a bit bad about her first humane euthanizing of a prey item so let's just all be big boys and girls and respect this member's feelings okay.

Layna, it's not easy dear to be the agent of this sort of thing. Just as it's not always easy feeding live for me. The only comfort or advice I can share with you is that you did it right and you did it humanely. You obviously have a level of respect for the prey item (sadly not shared by some) and in that you show your respect and care for the snake that will live off that mouse.

When I first bred my rats and saw their young born it was very hard for me to feed those cute fuzzy baby rats to our snakes. I remember though that nature in her wisdom created them to be what they are....predator and prey. I'm just a very small cog in that big unending wheel. So for me Layna, I just offer respect to both, am glad for what the rodent does for my snakes and remind myself every week that what I feel is a natural human emotion. The snake and the rat don't require my feelings so I respect my place in their dynamic as much as I can.

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Originally Posted by JabbaTheMutts

Yes because suffocation is much more humane :rolleyes:

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Exactly, that's what the snake does and nobody complains. If anything just wacking it is much quicker

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Is there any possibility some of you could show a little common sense and maturity and choose not to intrude into this sort of thread with the "just whack it to death" stuff. If that's how you personally choose to put a living animal down then so be it. Layna obviously felt a bit bad about her first humane euthanizing of a prey item so let's just all be big boys and girls and respect this member's feelings okay.

Layna, it's not easy dear to be the agent of this sort of thing. Just as it's not always easy feeding live for me. The only comfort or advice I can share with you is that you did it right and you did it humanely. You obviously have a level of respect for the prey item (sadly not shared by some) and in that you show your respect and care for the snake that will live off that mouse.

When I first bred my rats and saw their young born it was very hard for me to feed those cute fuzzy baby rats to our snakes. I remember though that nature in her wisdom created them to be what they are....predator and prey. I'm just a very small cog in that big unending wheel. So for me Layna, I just offer respect to both, am glad for what the rodent does for my snakes and remind myself every week that what I feel is a natural human emotion. The snake and the rat don't require my feelings so I respect my place in their dynamic as much as I can.

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Some days I wake up and hope that the idiots have scampered off and found a new hobby. Unfortunately it just isn't in the cards. Great post as always Jo!

Thank you Joanna. You are absolutely right.

And no, they do not suffocate when they are constricted. The blood actually ceases to flow to the brain, therefore cutting off oxygen. So the mouse, in essence, faints. CO2 chambers do about the same thing. Replacing oxygen with carbon dioxide slowly, and fainting occur, which is then followed by death since the brain isn't receiving any oxygen.

So how would you like to die? Fainting or a car crash where you may or may not die?

Seems to be one of my "less than patient" days Jamie LOL. You're very welcome Layna and I admire you in being honest with your discomfort, and in taking the good advice given in this thread about tweaking your procedures to make them efficient and even more humane. I didn't want you to feel you were the only person here who has ever felt uncomfortable about these aspects of snake keeping.

Thanks Becky for once again explaining that rodents do not suffocate during constriction. That old myth is just so very ingrained it seems no matter how many times we show scientific evidence and post links to help educate, some just won't bother to listen.

I just feed my rats to my snake alive and let him do all the work! Jump down my throat all you want but this method seems to work very nicely and I am always there in case something bad happens. I found that a waterbottle comes in handy if the rat starts to make me nervous around the snake....

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Originally Posted by Wolfsnaps

I just feed my rats to my snake alive and let him do all the work! Jump down my throat all you want but this method seems to work very nicely and I am always there in case something bad happens. I found that a waterbottle comes in handy if the rat starts to make me nervous around the snake....

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Why do you think someone here would jump down your throat for feeding live? :confused:

The 2 Methods listed to humanely dispatch prey are but not limited to
Cervical dislocation(snapping the neck)
CO2 death
but a combination of 2 or more methods is recomended to ensure death.
According to the AVA(I think thats the name), even the use of dry ice is in humane since there is no way to accurately control the amount of carbon dioxide in the chamber.
This is for those who wish to get all specific about what is humane and what isn't. I will continue to do cervical dislocation and CO2 since there are the 2 methods I am good at and feel better about.
Many may disagree but there is more than 1 way to do it. The purpose of humanely killing prey is to take it down fast and as painlessly as possible.

Heres a good link to some of the above info. Most came from readings and reports I did last year.
http://www.research.cornell.edu/care...Ps/CARE301.pdf

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Originally Posted by JabbaTheMutts

next time put it in a brown lunch bag and give it a good wack on the wall. It's faster for you and the mouse.

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have you ever had a decent post? I'm sorry but you don't contribute anything positive ever. Have a little decency man! (if this is considered a personal attack and against T.O.S. i'm sorry)

since I'm almost done fuming about this...
About whacking them please don't it is inhumane, and anyway CO2 chambers are not literally suffocation. When you have too much co2 in your blood you will hyperventilate (i.e. running or any excercise) there are sensors in your brain for co2 and they will try to compensate for the excesses as well as try to reduce the ph in your blood (dissolved co2=carbonic acid) the brain will try to even things out, but if it can't you'll just get drowsy and pass in your sleep (if co2 is introduced more gradually you won't notice a thing you'll just get real tired), it is in no way like drowning which is a horrible terrible death and what I would consider closer to suffocation. Co2 is more humane as there is no panic involved and in the end is quiet. kind of a slip shod explanation but hopefully you get the idea that co2 is quiet and peaceful not at all similar to death by suffocation.

compare it to a yourself... whould you rather have blunt force trauma to the head or die quietly in your sleep?

Heres another great source although a bit old, not much has changed on their practices.
http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_we...euthanasia.pdf
Look about 1/3 down at Carbon dioxide
Look about 1/2 down for Physical methods.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

And no, they do not suffocate when they are constricted. The blood actually ceases to flow to the brain, therefore cutting off oxygen. So the mouse, in essence, faints. CO2 chambers do about the same thing. Replacing oxygen with carbon dioxide slowly, and fainting occur, which is then followed by death since the brain isn't receiving any oxygen.

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I'm most definately not supporting the "whacking" methodology, or argueing against the heart of your post which is meant to say the mouse doesn't stop breathing. However if I'm not mistaken, suffocation means lack of oxygen, whether it is via stopping the lungs or replacing O2 with CO2. I guess my point is to say that saying the mice/rats suffocate when constricted is in fact the case. Because whether or not they are breathing, the O2 doesn't get where it needs to go. (this is not to say the experience of being in a CO2 chamber is the same as being drowned or choked just they both share in common the basic definition of suffocation i.e. lack of oxygen to vital body parts)

Now back on topic. I personnaly wish I had found this site sooner than I had for the very reason that I wish I knew how to feed my snake properly. Back when I got my first king snake about 10 years ago, the guy working the petstore had told me to stun my mice for feeding. It was something I never liked doing, but that's what the guy had told me. I now know that petstore employees are just a "wealth of knowledge", and you should trust them about half as far as you can throw them.

Now I just feed live. I cannot do the whole stunning or pre-killing thing anymore. However I do breed my own mice and have had several unexpected litters, or abnormally large litters in my time so I know that if the time comes I'll just look up the sticky we have here on using the dry ice trick to take care of a few if absolutely needed. I love my mice almost as much as I love my snakes. I mean seriously, my mice make pasta! How cool is that? :carrot:

Jake, although I agree that the c-spine method CAN be very humane I would never reccomend it for the fact that if you do it wrong then you have a mouse that is crippled and in pain. I understand you have to start somewhere but this is not the best way for someone who isn't taught how to do it properly. Theres something about mice that makes this really loose and I've heard about a lot of vet schools that refuse to work with mice simply because you could kill the mouse trying to restrain it since the mice are so flexible and loose. Even so, unless shown I feel that it's not the best way to go. just my opinion though

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

Jake, although I agree that the c-spine method CAN be very humane I would never reccomend it for the fact that if you do it wrong then you have a mouse that is crippled and in pain. I understand you have to start somewhere but this is not the best way for someone who isn't taught how to do it properly. Theres something about mice that makes this really loose and I've heard about a lot of vet schools that refuse to work with mice simply because you could kill the mouse trying to restrain it since the mice are so flexible and loose. Even so, unless shown I feel that it's not the best way to go. just my opinion though

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Anyone with any skill can dislocate the neck with a little practice. I did a little reading about it and got it right the first time. All there is as with MOST euthanizing of rodents was the twitching.
Also, even gassing can and does go wrong from time to time if you don't measure the CO2 concentrations first. The result, screaming, gasping, and jumping rats and mice that are far from humanely killed.

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Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

Anyone with any skill can dislocate the neck with a little practice. I did a little reading about it and got it right the first time. All there is as with MOST euthanizing of rodents was the twitching

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It's like a chicken with it's head cut off... literally. However, being a goose hunter, I know that when you wring an animals neck, although quick, does cause great discomfort and can be poorly executed which would put the animal through unbelievable agony before the little bugger ever makes it to the snake cage.

My point is, if I was to pre-kill my food, I would use a method that is known to be as humane as death can be. And in this case the best way would be to use a CO2 chamber. Whether that is through dry-ice in a cooler, or the CO2 tank hooked up to a chamber.

A few suggestions on euthanasia from various university research sources...

- cervical dislocation should not be performed on any rodent over 125 grams

- newborn rodents are more resistant to CO2 (actually to hypoxia, lack of oxygen to the brain) and it may take up to 2 or 3 times more exposure to assure death

- this seems to start to change more towards the adult response sometime around day 8 to 14

- some rearch facilities (mostly university protocols) said it was okay to freeze newborn aka pinkie rats and mice (less than 8 days of age) as a method of humane euthansia, others disagreed

For pinkies, I just tend to do a flick of the head and into the freezer. They are USUALLY frozen within 5 minutes

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For pinkies, I just tend to do a flick of the head and into the freezer. They are USUALLY frozen within 5 minutes

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Same thing here. It is the best thing I can think of for them.

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Originally Posted by JabbaTheMutts

next time put it in a brown lunch bag and give it a good wack on the wall. It's faster for you and the mouse.

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OMG :puke:

This makes me glad that I feed live to all of my snakes. I used to do the whack-against-concrete-floor method, and quite honestly, the rat would die instantly. I never saw a problem with it, and if I need to do it again, this is the method I will use, because the rat dies instantly.. But I would never recommend anyone doing it who is squeamish; any hesitation would minimize the force needed to inflict instant death, and cause suffering, which is unneeded and unconscionable.
I seriously do not like the way that whacking was used in this thread.. but when I do it myself, I see nothing wrong with it.. again, it is instant death with maybe a muscle twitch, that is it.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

This makes me glad that I feed live to all of my snakes. I used to do the whack-against-concrete-floor method, and quite honestly, the rat would die instantly. I never saw a problem with it, and if I need to do it again, this is the method I will use, because the rat dies instantly.. But I would never recommend anyone doing it who is squeamish; any hesitation would minimize the force needed to inflict instant death, and cause suffering, which is unneeded and unconscionable.
I seriously do not like the way that whacking was used in this thread.. but when I do it myself, I see nothing wrong with it.. again, it is instant death with maybe a muscle twitch, that is it.

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Agreed withe the bold part(except i don't feed live to the boas). 1 single hit and the rat is dead. Drop it in the tub and the snake usually sses it as live and goes for it. A good solid swing is a sure way to cause INSTANT death. I switched from Whacking to cervical dislocation. The twitching seems to be more intense with the latter but the blood is almost never seen which is a plus.

I have a wild caught ball that will only eat pre-killed. Everyone else eats live. When I do have to kill for the WC animal though, I do just "whack" the rodent. There are usually some muscle spasms and blood, and it is not something I enjoy doing. I may switch to dry ice as an alternative.

In regards to the second poster in this thread, have a heart, will you?

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Originally Posted by Rapture

I have a wild caught ball that will only eat pre-killed. Everyone else eats live. When I do have to kill for the WC animal though, I do just "whack" the rodent. There are usually some muscle spasms and blood, and it is not something I enjoy doing. I may switch to dry ice as an alternative.

In regards to the second poster in this thread, have a heart, will you?

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Whacking is Whacking as far as I'm conserned. As long as he does it percisely, I see no problem with it(We don't know his exact method so I'm not saying I agree or disagree with what he does)

There is a difference between whacking your rodent and being indifferent to someone upset about their first time to kill a prey item.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

There is a difference between whacking your rodent and being indifferent to someone upset about their first time to kill a prey item.

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I didn't see him as doing anything other than being a bit bold at his statement

Agree to disagree