Lesser/Butter

I was searching around and was unable to find my answer so I thought I would ask.

Trying to find out what makes a butter. I was reading somewhere that a lesser can create a butter, but a butter can't create a lesser...how?

What do you breed with a Lesser to make a butter?

According to Ralph Davis's website http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/ma...its/butter.asp
The Butter is a morph onto itself and not related to the Lesser. Supposedly the butter looks similar but is more yellow.

Unless his site/info is wrong and outdated. I am sure someone can confirm/deny this info.

Here it says differently http://www.8ballpythons.com/lesser.htm

I'm so confused... A Platinum is a Butter right...and Lesser Platinum is the other..or are Platinums and Butter different?

Platty daddy i think was its name is where the lessers came from, Ralph Davis imported him and was surprised that the clutches he sired did not quite look like him, so they became lesser platinums. The butters are from a different imported snake, and while they may look similar no one is sure yet if they are the same morph.
hopefully this helps, and if i got something wrong please correct me

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

Here it says differently http://www.8ballpythons.com/lesser.htm

I'm so confused... A Platinum is a Butter right...and Lesser Platinum is the other..or are Platinums and Butter different?

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I think you are getting confused as the link to Adam's site doesn't mention Butters at all. Butters are NOT related to Platinums. THE Platinum was the first (imported morph by Ralph Davis) that when bred to a normal produced Lesser Platinums. There is hope that some combination of Lesser to something will produce a Platinum again (but as of now this hasn't happened...someone correct me if wrong:) )

Butter Does Not Equal Lesser or Platinum
Platinum + normal produces Lessers
Lessers + something hopefully will product Platinums

I love this site...I have learned more about ball pythons than I ever imagined. It is funny but I think I understand biology better now then i did in school.

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There is hope that some combination of Lesser to something will produce a Platinum again (but as of now this hasn't happened...someone correct me if wrong:) )

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OK, you're wrong. :D

From what I remember. Ralph imported the original platinum. He bred this male to some normal females and produced a fairly even split of normal looking babies and babies that were different looking. These different looking babies were similar to the original platinum but weren't as nice (I think the term he used was 'they weren't even in the same zipcode') These different babies he termed 'Lesser platinums'. Fortunatly he also kept all the 'normal' looking babies as well. When he bred the normal babies together, he produced nothing but more normal looking babies... HOWEVER, when he bred the original male platinum to some of his normal looking daughters he produced some more real platinums (ie: not lessers) So there is apparently a hidden gene in the platty daddy (the original male platinum) That doesn't show up in a first generation breeding. I believe that he has also produced platinums by breeding lessers to these normal looking siblings. I believe that Ralph now has a number of real platinums but I don't know if he's ever sold any.

The butters are very similar looking to the lessers and originate from another wild caught animal imported by another breeder. (whose name eludes me right now) Other people also have imported similar looking animals, I beleive that Sean at EBN imported a snake a few years back that he calls an 'African Lesser'. Interestingly Ralph bred a butter to one of his normal siblings and produced the butter version of a real platinum. So, it appears that the key to producing a real platinum is the normal looking offspring from the original platty daddy.

At least thats how I remember it.

Mark

This Platty Daddy seems like some kind of legend. Pretty cool stuff.

Ok, now I'm really confused as well :P I was thinking that butters and platinums were different. From what I understand, Platty Daddy started it all, and not too long ago they were able to produce actual platinums again. I hadn't heard anything about Butters during all of it.

On Bob Clark's site, it's showing Butters and Platinums as the same thing??
http://www.bobclark.com/d_learn.asp?id=130&cat=learn

It seems this thread is headed towards them being different snakes, which is the impression I got....I'm confused.... :P

I don't know why that pic is labelled like that, but the lessers and the butters were started by completely different snakes collected at different times according to everything else that I've heard. So that means theyre not the same thing. There has been some thought that it could be a related trait though which would mean similar, but not the same.

Ok, I didn't think they were the same, but it confused me b/c he's a really big and pretty well known breeder. I'm looking into getting one or the other and the whole mix-up thing was weird!! :P

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Originally Posted by tweets_4611

Ok, now I'm really confused as well :P I was thinking that butters and platinums were different. From what I understand, Platty Daddy started it all, and not too long ago they were able to produce actual platinums again. I hadn't heard anything about Butters during all of it.

On Bob Clark's site, it's showing Butters and Platinums as the same thing??
http://www.bobclark.com/d_learn.asp?id=130&cat=learn

It seems this thread is headed towards them being different snakes, which is the impression I got....I'm confused.... :P

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Bob is wrong...(i remember no one was happy when Mike W put that comment into the reptiles mag a while back)

Platinums started the lessers, Ralph brought in a Platinum from africa. He breed it to a normal and got Lessers... Heres a little genetic info:
1. Lesser x Lesser = Lessers and Blue eyed Lucy
2. Lesser x Normal Sibling = Lessers and Platinums (no one knows why yet)


Mark and Kim Bell had the first line of Butters, Ralph also brought in a Butter. Ralph produced a Butter "Platinum" from his line of Butter. (im pretty sure but not positive, He breed his Butter to a Normal Sibling and produced the Butter "Platinum" same way as with the lesser)

Butters are not Lessers (or platinums) and Lessers are not Butters ( or platinums) They both seem to do the same thing ... (similar to the Cinnamon Pastel and the Black Pastel) Now all we need to do is see if there is a Mojave "Platinum" and we can really bring on the confusion!

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Originally Posted by NextWorldExotics

Heres a little genetic info:

2. Lesser x Normal Sibling = Lessers and Platinums (no one knows why yet)

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That's only for platinums right? you wont get platinums if you breed a lesser to a normal then breed the siblings you still won't get the platinum. right?

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

That's only for platinums right? you wont get platinums if you breed a lesser to a normal then breed the siblings you still won't get the platinum. right?

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No one has gotten a Platinum from breeding 2 Normal Siblings...

oh no, I meant a lesser x normal then cross the lesser with a normal sib, its just the normal sibs from platinum breeding that have the hidden genes

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

oh no, I meant a lesser x normal then cross the lesser with a normal sib, its just the normal sibs from platinum breeding that have the hidden genes

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oh lol.
As far as i know it has only been done with normal sibs from the Platinum ( i think it may have been done with first generation lessers too, but im not positive... i can find out though)

Isn't it true butters get yellower as they get older and lessers don't. I'm kinda leaning toward the butter because of that.

So confusing...so in a nutshell Butter/Lesser/Platinum are all different snakes.
Lesser x Normal Sibling = Platinum
Lesser x Lesser = Blue Eyed Lucy
Lesser x Platinum =
Lesser x Butter =
Platinum x Platinum =
Platinum x Butter =
Butter x Butter =

Anyone is welcome to fill in all known blanks

Are the butters any more common than the lessers? I just found out about both of them fairly recently (and absoultly fell in LOVE haha) and I'm still trying to find out more about them. I've seen lessers on some of the breeders pages, but I don't know that I have seen anyone with butters...

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Originally Posted by NextWorldExotics

oh lol.
As far as i know it has only been done with normal sibs from the Platinum ( i think it may have been done with first generation lessers too, but im not positive... i can find out though)

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thanks, that would be interesting to know, because it would make sense if it was only platinum sibs that show the hidden gene, but would be real interesting if the lesser sibs showed it too. but then again that would throw a real wrench in it because then if that is the case that would raise the question why are lessers not platinums...

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

So confusing...so in a nutshell Butter/Lesser/Platinum are all different snakes.
Lesser x Normal Sibling = Platinum
Lesser x Lesser = Blue Eyed Lucy
Lesser x Platinum =
Lesser x Butter =
Platinum x Platinum =
Platinum x Butter =
Butter x Butter =

Anyone is welcome to fill in all known blanks

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Lesser x Normal Sibling = Platinum
Lesser x Lesser = Blue Eyed Lucy
Lesser x Platinum = Blue Eye lucy, Platinum (i think, not sure?), Lesser
Lesser x Butter = Blue eye lucy
Platinum x Platinum = ??? (hasn't been done as far as i know)
Platinum x Butter = ??? (hasn't been done as far as i know)
Butter x Butter = Blue eye lucy

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Originally Posted by tweets_4611

Are the butters any more common than the lessers? I just found out about both of them fairly recently (and absoultly fell in LOVE haha) and I'm still trying to find out more about them. I've seen lessers on some of the breeders pages, but I don't know that I have seen anyone with butters...

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Butters are much less common then Lessers...

Ah...I didn't word that well now that I see it again! :P That is what I was thinking since I didn't see/hear about them much. Thanks!

i think lesser and butters are simular to the whole cinny black pastel situation as was stated earlier i think they are to simular mutations in terms of genetics but differ visually from what ive seen butters tend to have more yellow then lessers so its all personal preference.....there both awsome either way! :sunny:

thanks-justin tricoci/ontario constrictor designs

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/119351a_lesser2.jpg

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Originally Posted by NextWorldExotics

Butters are much less common then Lessers...

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I agree with Jon. Finding a nice butter at a reasonable price is difficult most days. Here is my hatchling butter male who is also a PH for ghost . . . .caramel glow anyone?

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...0/5/Parkay.JPG

Nice Butter Alice! Now where did you go finding a nice male like that?

Brock Wagner:colbert:

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Nice Butter Alice! Now where did you go finding a nice male like that?

Brock Wagner:colbert:

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Brock, I twisted Michael Cole's arm quite a bit to get that one. Next I need to find a beautiful female butter to pair him with . . .

BTW, he is not PH ghost - just straight butter. My bad! Too many hours watching snakes breeding! :cool: I got him confused with my caramel het ghost and thus the reference to a caramel glow. Here's one of my caramel albinos. I just love their coloring!

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../5/Camille.JPG

I want a butter!!! :mad:

Brock, I may just have to take one off your hands come hatching time, if I have the proper funds. :)

You know that we will get it worked out Chris don't worry. I am so excited that I have 5 clutches already and a special one is laying today! Alice that is a very nice Caramel you have there. It seems your collection is growing by leaps and bounds!


Brock Wagner
Brockwagnerreptiles.com:cool:

Please take business discussions to PM.

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

You know that we will get it worked out Chris don't worry. I am so excited that I have 5 clutches already and a special one is laying today! Alice that is a very nice Caramel you have there. It seems your collection is growing by leaps and bounds!


Brock Wagner
Brockwagnerreptiles.com:cool:

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Thanks Brock! It's very hard to stop at just one, or two, or ten. . . . well you know what I mean.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

OK, you're wrong. :D

From what I remember. Ralph imported the original platinum. He bred this male to some normal females and produced a fairly even split of normal looking babies and babies that were different looking. These different looking babies were similar to the original platinum but weren't as nice (I think the term he used was 'they weren't even in the same zipcode') These different babies he termed 'Lesser platinums'. Fortunatly he also kept all the 'normal' looking babies as well. When he bred the normal babies together, he produced nothing but more normal looking babies... HOWEVER, when he bred the original male platinum to some of his normal looking daughters he produced some more real platinums (ie: not lessers) So there is apparently a hidden gene in the platty daddy (the original male platinum) That doesn't show up in a first generation breeding. I believe that he has also produced platinums by breeding lessers to these normal looking siblings. I believe that Ralph now has a number of real platinums but I don't know if he's ever sold any.

The butters are very similar looking to the lessers and originate from another wild caught animal imported by another breeder. (whose name eludes me right now) Other people also have imported similar looking animals, I beleive that Sean at EBN imported a snake a few years back that he calls an 'African Lesser'. Interestingly Ralph bred a butter to one of his normal siblings and produced the butter version of a real platinum. So, it appears that the key to producing a real platinum is the normal looking offspring from the original platty daddy.

At least thats how I remember it.

Mark

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Hate to bring up an old thread, but I'm confused.
A platinum to normal makes lessers and normals. Are mojaves, butters and lessers compatible? Could there be a Super platinum? I'm lost.

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Originally Posted by erobinson

Hate to bring up an old thread, but I'm confused.
A platinum to normal makes lessers and normals. Are mojaves, butters and lessers compatible? Could there be a Super platinum? I'm lost.

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It is confusing, because there are some interesting genetics at work.

First, I'm not sure if anyone has crossed butters and lessers. However, RDR did take one of his Lesser siblings and breed it to a Butter and bred out a "Butter Daddy". That to me says Butters and Lessers are not only compatible, but the same genes are at work (similar to an Enchi, Lemon and Graziani Pastel... I look very different, but all the same genes).

Here's a Butter Daddy: http://www.glassreptiles.com/daytona...r%20Daddy.html

And the Platty Daddy:
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/ma...s/platinum.asp

There's a "Daddy" gene involved here that changes the color pattern of the normal Butter and Lesser. The only two animals that this has ever been reproduced on are Butters and Plattys. That suggests that this gene is only compatible with the Butter/Platinum lines, which in turn, suggests these are two of the same animals (with different bloodlines).

The "Super Lesser" is just about the whitest BEL you'll ever see. The Butter also makes BELs, and I have no idea how white they are. I don't imagine you'd be able to see the difference between a "Super Platinum" and a "Super Lesser", since they would all produce BEL's.

Mojave's I'm not so sure about. The BEL's they produce aren't as pretty, and the animals themselves aren't nearly as pretty as Butters or Lessers (IMHO). So we won't know that until someone breeds a Mojave to Lesser, or better yet, a Mojave to Lesser Sibling and see if we can produce Mojave Daddy's :D.

The platinum morph sounds like it might be a good morph to invest in, normals(that aren't normal), lessers, platinums and BEL's. But it sounds like it could be more inbreeding in this line than I would desire in a morph.

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Originally Posted by erobinson

The platinum morph sounds like it might be a good morph to invest in, normals(that aren't normal), lessers, platinums and BEL's. But it sounds like it could be more inbreeding in this line than I would desire in a morph.

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Well, there's a ton of inbreeding in every line. The overwhelming majority of morphs came from a single WC sire or dame. However, Plattys are a tricky investment, since Ralph is keeping a pretty solid hold on them (do you blame him? :)). If I recall, he's only put one Platty up for sale and I'm going to guess it'll cost a small fortune.

Personally, I like the "look" of Butters better than Platinums. But I would certainly want my hands on a WT Lesser sibling to make a Butter Daddy :D

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Personally, I like the "look" of Butters better than Platinums. But I would certainly want my hands on a WT Lesser sibling to make a Butter Daddy :D

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I'm with you on that. I prefer butters to the lessers, especially the pastel butters. I'll also invest in mojaves as well. I just like the purple head of the super mojave leucistic.

Someone should suggest to Ralph to breed a first generation "normal" (from the Platty Daddy) to a Mojave and see what happens...

So it has been proven though that Butters produce BELs?

The theory that seems to me to agree best with the public data so far is that the daddy gene (I like "dilute" better) is another allele of the same group as lesser, butter, mojave, Vin Russo, phantom, and probably whatever makes a mojave into a crystal. In this theory these are all different versions of the same gene. If this is the case the important result of these beeing alleles would be that one snake could have at most 2 of all of the different types of this gene, including the normal version.

In this theory a karma (white snake from lesser X phantom) when bred to a normal can only produce 50/50 lessers and phantoms but no normals and no karmas. If the daddy/dilute gene is yet another allele then the platy is a combo just like karma and platy X normal would produce 50% lesser and 50% with the dilute gene. The difference being that the dilute gene by it's self either produces normal or very near normal looking animals and apperently even a homozygous dilute doesn't stand out.

This would fit with the daddy butter being produced by a normal looking discendent of platy daddy X butter without any inbreeding. I believe RDR has kept very tight hold of the dilute gene so it might be a while before we get to see if it has a simulare effect in a mojave. I believe that RDR's 2005 clutch 44 shows the dilute gene in a phantom (the 44's).

To fill in some of the expected results using this theory:

Platinum X Platinum = 1/4 Leucistic (not carrying the dilute gene as no room for a 3rd version of the same gene), 1/2 Platinum, 1/4 normal looking homozygous dilute. The nice thing about a clutch like this is that you would know for sure (if the theory is right) about the homozygous dilute and if you bred it to the leucistic you would bet 100% Platinum.

Platinum X Butter = 1/4 Leucistic, 1/4 daddy butter, 1/4 lesser, 1/4 normal looking heterozygous dilute

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The theory that seems to me to agree best with the public data so far is that the daddy gene (I like "dilute" better) is another allele of the same group as lesser, butter, mojave, Vin Russo, phantom, and probably whatever makes a mojave into a crystal.

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That doesn't make much sense to me. A codominant allele that presents no differences between a wild-type in visual appearance? I'm not sure what is going on with the "Daddy" gene, but I think it is WAY to early to be making predictions on what it is, let alone what it's compatible with.

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Originally Posted by NextWorldExotics

Lesser x Normal Sibling = Platinum
Lesser x Lesser = Blue Eyed Lucy
Lesser x Platinum = Blue Eye lucy, Platinum (i think, not sure?), Lesser
Lesser x Butter = Blue eye lucy
Platinum x Platinum = ??? (hasn't been done as far as i know)
Platinum x Butter = ??? (hasn't been done as far as i know)
Butter x Butter = Blue eye lucy

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Lesser x Lesser = blue eyed lucy? is that all, or will you also get other lessers.

Also what do you get when you breed a Lesser x Normal (non sibling) ?

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Lesser x Lesser = blue eyed lucy? is that all, or will you also get other lessers.

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as far as I know, you would get blue eyed Leucistics, lessers and normals. Think of a lesser as being a het leucistic.

I think he was just pointing out the different ways to make a leucistic, not breaking it down to the different forms in a single clutch.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

as far as I know, you would get blue eyed Leucistics, lessers and normals. Think of a lesser as being a het leucistic.

I think he was just pointing out the different ways to make a leucistic, not breaking it down to the different forms in a single clutch.

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I think calling it what it is, is less confusing. It's a co-dom, so think of the BEL as a super lesser.

A lesser x lesser should = lessers, BEL's, and normals.

A lesser x normal (non sibling) should = lessers and normals.

Anyone can feel more than free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

That doesn't make much sense to me. A codominant allele that presents no differences between a wild-type in visual appearance? I'm not sure what is going on with the "Daddy" gene, but I think it is WAY to early to be making predictions on what it is, let alone what it's compatible with.

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This theory has been around for years now (I didn't come up with it, someone on this forum who posts as Hahaman did) and agrees with all the subsequent breedings I've heard of so far, most notably the platys that have been produced (and not produced) including the daddy/platy butter with no inbreeding.

There is precedence for a dilute gene that has no visible effect by it's self but dilutes certain morphs in rats.

I think it is way too late after years of platy breedings for there to still be so much confusion as to the results. I'm going to go out on a limb and say I'm pretty darn sure this theory is right. I just need to find a better way of explaining it so it makes sense to others. I can't remember if this site supports html, let me try a test Punnett square:

<html><table border=2><tr><td></td><td>w</td><td>Wl</td></tr><tr><td>wd</td><td>w wd</td><td>wd Wl</td></tr><tr><td>w</td><td>w w</td><td>w Wl</td></tr></table></html>

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Lesser x Butter = Blue eye lucy

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Who has produced a lucy from butter x lesser ? On ralphs birthing records clutch 18 in 05 he produced a butter lesser cross and it wasnt a Blue eye lucy.

So is a Platty Daddy actually Het Leucistic Het Dilute? Or is it Het Leucistic Homo Dilute?

If dilute and lesser are alleles (different mutations of the same gene) I don't think it's technical to refer to a platy as a double het but I can't remember what the right term is for that. Whatever it's called I believe that the platy has one lesser gene and one dilute gene.

I don't believe a platy can be homozygous dilute because the platy/daddy butter was produced without any inbreeding.

If these are all mutations of the same gene then there is only room for two copies of all types in one animal so for example a luecistic could not carry the dilute gene because it would already have two versions that produce a white snake together. The platy would be just another combo of different mutations of this gene like the karma leucistics and perhaps the crystal.

Wow, ok I can see what you're talking about, but I could never explain it in words either, lol. It's like seeing and describing God!

Okok, how about this: an allele can only be paired, but the lesser gene has two variations instead of one. If a blue eyed leucistic is represented ll and a lesser is represented as Ll, and a normal is represented as LL, then a Platty Daddy is represented as Pl. It's like an interloper, lol. The P is this extra gene that interferes with the l gene. When you breed a Pl to a normal, the outcomes are 50% PL (normal that's connected with the dilute gene) and 50% Ll (Lesser). So, when you breed one of these first generation PL to a lesser, the outcomes are 25% LL (normal), 25% Ll (Lesser), 25% PL (normal w/ dilute), and 25% Pl (Platty Daddy). Does that make sense??

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I think it is way too late after years of platy breedings for there to still be so much confusion as to the results. I'm going to go out on a limb and say I'm pretty darn sure this theory is right.

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I couldn't disagree more.
There's one way to figure it out without question.

Platinum x Normal = 50% Lesser & 50% "Dilute"
"Dilute" x "Dilute" = 25% Normal, 25% "Dilute" and 25% "Super Dilute"

"Super Dilute" x "Super Lesser" = 100% Platty Daddies

Perhaps this has been done and I didn't realize it. But unless/until Platinum's can be produced via this method I don't that we can be so sure.

Ralph has bred normal Platinum siblings together and got nothing from that pairing. There is no super dilute form. It is really weird how the Platinum gives a gene to the normal appearing sibs to make more Platinums when bred to a Lesser or Butter! Those normals have something special in them and it is not visible. Very confusing I know.


Brock :rockon:

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I think calling it what it is, is less confusing. It's a co-dom, so think of the BEL as a super lesser.

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True, it is co-dominant. However, I don't think 'Super' is an accepted scientific term, but heterozygous is.

Mark