Pit Bulls

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Originally Posted by Chase13

They need to take a look at pitbull accidents before snakes. Its insanity.

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That's yet another example of myths. Pitbulls make wonderful pets. There are specific examples of course, in any breed, of a puppy born with an aggressive temperment, or being taught to be aggressive, but these dogs are wonderful animals with a bad rep.

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Originally Posted by darkangel

That's yet another example of myths. Pitbulls make wonderful pets. There are specific examples of course, in any breed, of a puppy born with an aggressive temperment, or being taught to be aggressive, but these dogs are wonderful animals with a bad rep.

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That's not a myth.

As someone who has had 2 very wonderful pit bulls as pets, I'm sorry, I'm just not buying it. I'm not going to deny your statistics but I am going to say I'd like to know the background of these particular animals that attacked.

I feel the pit bull issue is more of an ownership problem than a breed-specific problem.

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Originally Posted by darkangel

As someone who has had 2 very wonderful pit bulls as pets, I'm sorry, I'm just not buying it. I'm not going to deny your statistics but I am going to say I'd like to know the background of these particular animals that attacked.

I feel the pit bull issue is more of an ownership problem than a breed-specific problem.

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I went ahead and split the thread as it was veering off-topic. Anyway, I feel that the issue is both an ownership and species problem. Pits were bred to fight, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all of them are aggressive. However, it is still an instict that they have. Many dogs were bred for specific instincts: retrieving, following scents, chasing rabbits, etc. Pits were bred to have a low pain threshold and to fight which is probably why the attack and death statistics are so high for them and Rottweilers.

Going back to the last topic, I would feel much more comfortable if one of my neighbors were breeding snakes in a room than if they had a couple of loose pits running around... or any large dog for that matter.

Even if half of those figures are due to the owners, that still speaks volumes. There are people on here who own several "wonderful" retics or anacondas, but that doesn't change the facts about the specific breeds or species. If I had to walk through either a park full of pit bulls or a park full of any other dog breed, I would walk through park B (not that I'm scared of pits). I have seen 2 pitbulls get out and attack 2 young girls who were just walking down the street. I've never seen other escaped dogs do that.

I'm sorry to say but I don't like pit's at all. Hate me I don't care.

I live in a area where they are let loose to run and attack, are set on other people's dogs in their yards, they are mean and are faught, and they are set on any animal that moves pretty much. A few years ago a group of boys baited my next door neighbor's lab mix in to fence chasing their pits when they walked by. One day I came home to my neighbor crying and the police there. Those boys had come by and put their pits in my neighbors fenced in yard. Those pits tore my neighbors dog to shreads. It looked like someone mass murderd a few cows out there because there was so much blood.

A friend of mine has three of them that he says are "sweet, loving, never would hurt a fly". Last July at his 4th of July cook out, I was sitting there with my b/f... doing absolutely nothing. The male pit was standing next to me and out of no where turned and lunged at me. THANK GOD my friend was standing near him and grabbed him. I felt that dogs teeth glaze my arm! About a half an hour later the dog came flying up on to the porch and lunged right at my face. My boyfriend threw me off of his lap and by that time my friend and boyfriend had the dog back under control. My boyfriend then told our friend that he better put those dogs away because if that dog would have touched me he would kill it right then and there.

I've also met many countless pits on walks with my dog around the neighborhood. Two years ago I was walking Snick down an alley and a pit was loose and just came running, barking, and snarling at us. I knew that we were both in for it and that I had to do something and quick! Snick was trying to hold her ground but I yanked her in to someones back yard that had their gate unlocked. I quickly shut it and the dog was trying to jump it to get to us. I then ran out of their front gate and took a b-line back on home. That was not the first time I've been just about gotten from a pit around here walking my dog. I hardly ever walk her or Cin around here. When I do walk them around here, I walk them where I know there was few pits.

I don't trust them at all! They are so unpredictable. I have friends who have them, but I ask my friends to put them away when I'm over their houses.

I've only met one sweet pitbull. She belongs to my friend I work with, but I don't trust her and make sure my friend Chris is around me and her at all times while she is out in the house.


I've seen what these dogs can do and do, do. It's not something I like at all. I LOVE dogs but I don't like pits at all. I've just had way to many bad experiences with them.



I feel a lot more comfortable being over my friends house who has a burm and a few retics then I do over my other friends house who has the only pit that I'll call sweet.

Pit bulls do not have a low pain threshold. That is a myth.
http://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html

Look I'm not trying to say that there hasn't been documented cases of aggression. But you can't start a breed-specific ban. That is ridiculous. My former jack russell terrier was more aggressive than any pit I have come into contact with. But he's a jack russell, no one gives a crap. Any dog, any breed, could turn on you at any moment. This is fact of owning dogs.

AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER 84% on the American Temperment Test Society website. The average is a 77%.

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Originally Posted by darkangel

Pit bulls do not have a low pain threshold. That is a myth.
http://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html

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Huh?

I've worked with dogs professionally for years in situations that are very stressful and can bring out the worst in them. I can count on one hand the number of agressive pits I've met. They are almost entirely sweet, goofy, loving dogs.

I cannot say the same for most German Shepherds, Border Collies, Australian Cattle Dogs, Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, and the vast majority of toy breeds.
To date, I have been bitten by an Australian Cattle Dog, a Rat Terrier, a Cocker Spaniel, a Jack Russell Terrier, a Dachshund, and two Boston Terriers.

The problem is that the people who want to own a vicious dog reach for pitbulls 99% of the time. You can make any dog vicious if you try hard enough.

There are a couple of problems with statistics surrounding pitbull attacks.

1. Misidentification. People who are more familiar with the myth than with the breed will ID a dog as a pit bull based on agression, not physical characteristics. Lab mixes, Shepherd mixes, Boxer mixes, and Chow mixes are all frequently listed as pitbulls subsequent to an attack.

2. Reporting trends. Very few people submit a police report when Granny Bluehair's Chihuahua bites your ankle. I have however seen big friendly dogs taken away and euthanized for knocking a child over with an overenthusastic greeting. I strongly believe that if all dog bites were reported, pit bull rankings would plummit. Pit bulls when agressive can and do cause some horrific wounds, but that does not make all pit bulls killers.

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Originally Posted by darkangel

Pit bulls do not have a low pain threshold. That is a myth.
http://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html

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Sorry, I meant to say "high pain threshold"... and that's not a myth. They were bred to tolerate pain in order to complete their tasks.


Here's a quote from your link...

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Historically, those dogs that would tolerate or ignore discomfort and pain and finish the task they were required to perform were the dogs that were bred and the sort of dogs breeders strove to produce.

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Jess, A rat terrier or a toy breed can't rip a grown man or his pet retriever to shreds.

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Originally Posted by slartibartfast

I've worked with dogs professionally for years in situations that are very stressful and can bring out the worst in them. I can count on one hand the number of agressive pits I've met. They are almost entirely sweet, goofy, loving dogs.

I cannot say the same for most German Shepherds, Border Collies, Australian Cattle Dogs, Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, and the vast majority of toy breeds.
To date, I have been bitten by an Australian Cattle Dog, a Rat Terrier, a Cocker Spaniel, a Jack Russell Terrier, a Dachshund, and two Boston Terriers.

The problem is that the people who want to own a vicious dog reach for pitbulls 99% of the time. You can make any dog vicious if you try hard enough.

There are a couple of problems with statistics surrounding pitbull attacks.

1. Misidentification. People who are more familiar with the myth than with the breed will ID a dog as a pit bull based on agression, not physical characteristics. Lab mixes, Shepherd mixes, Boxer mixes, and Chow mixes are all frequently listed as pitbulls subsequent to an attack.

2. Reporting trends. Very few people submit a police report when Granny Bluehair's Chihuahua bites your ankle. I have however seen big friendly dogs taken away and euthanized for knocking a child over with an overenthusastic greeting. I strongly believe that if all dog bites were reported, pit bull rankings would plummit. Pit bulls when agressive can and do cause some horrific wounds, but that does not make all pit bulls killers.

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:rockon:

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Jess, A rat terrier or a toy breed can't rip a grown man or his pet retriever to shreds.

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Then don't own them. Instances of people getting attacked by a neighbor's dog is the neighbor's negligance, is it not?

And to the high pain threshold thing... There is a marked difference between having a high pain threshold and tolerating pain to complete a task, which is called gameness. To suggest a high pain threshold sounds like the dog is a science experiment with no nerve endings.

People can make all the same arguments about anacondas compared to, let's say ball python. Yes there are some docile ones out there, they aren't all bad or mean, but they will still both attack more often and do way more damage than a ball python period.

I would personally believe a snake is driven more by instinct than a dog. Instinct may play a role in both's decision-making, but a snake will never love you, have memory of you, and bond with you. It's apples and oranges.

I think responsible ownership is the key. There are many pit bull owners that purchase them because of their reputation and promote these kind of behaviors.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Jess, A rat terrier or a toy breed can't rip a grown man or his pet retriever to shreds.

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That doesn't mean they don't try...little dogs are more likely to attack. I see soooo many owners who have agressive small dogs not under control, and the dog is straining at the end of it's leash and lunging at a much larger dog. Many more fights are started by small dogs than their owners realized or will admit to themselves. Last week we sewed up a 3lb elderly orkie with no teeth and a bad heart who went into a pit's yard and attacked it! The funny thing is the yorkie was minimally injured...a few light punctures. I am convinced the pit was just warning it off, since the dog was so frail that a real bite would have crushed it.

The argument that pits are more agressive is 100% full of poo. It's just not based on fact, and anybody with experience will tell you the same.

Originally Posted by PythonWallace
Jess, A rat terrier or a toy breed can't rip a grown man or his pet retriever to shreds.

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Originally Posted by darkangel

Then don't own them. Instances of people getting attacked by a neighbor's dog is the neighbor's negligance, is it not?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. :confused:

And to the high pain threshold thing... There is a marked difference between having a high pain threshold and tolerating pain to complete a task, which is called gameness. To suggest a high pain threshold sounds like the dog is a science experiment with no nerve endings.

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Not an experiment. Are you denying that pitbulls were bred to be killers, and that is why they even exist today?

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Originally Posted by darkangel

There is a marked difference between having a high pain threshold and tolerating pain to complete a task, which is called gameness. To suggest a high pain threshold sounds like the dog is a science experiment with no nerve endings.

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I've always used and heard that expression to descrbe a tolerance to pain.

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Originally Posted by slartibartfast

Pit bulls when agressive can and do cause some horrific wounds, but that does not make all pit bulls killers.

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I used to have a Bassett Hound that slept a lot when he got older. I would sometimes walk around the backyard without him waking up, and after I left he would sometimes get up and track my exact path around the yard. That's what he was bred to do, and he was following his instincts.

Pits were bred to fight and to have a high tolerance for pain. Sure, you can work with them and make them great and loyal pets, but they will always have those instincts and that should always be taken into account.

I am done here. I like pitbulls, and was playing devils advocate for a while, but you guys aren't being reasonable. I'll trust Lawrence to speak for me now.

What I'm getting at -- Irresponsible owners are the problems, not the dogs.

I never denied that they were bred to fight other dogs. However you don't think quite a bit of pushing the behavior went into making them fight? And ANY ANY dog can be a killer. Do not villify one breed.

Anyway I'm going to lunch. This argument has exhausted me.

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Originally Posted by darkangel

Any dog, any breed, could turn on you at any moment. This is fact of owning dogs.

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True. I'm sure that given the chance, my standard poodle of 14 years would have maimed me in my sleep. I firmly believes pitbulls have some breed-specific issues, namely aggression. Combinded with this so called "gameness" (do i have that right?), they won't stop until they've finished (killing, maiming, etc.) Good dog! In all seriousness, It sounds like it's really a matter of our experiences with different breeds. I for one have had a traumatic experience with a pitbull.

One day in 4th grade, my mom came to pick me up from school with our dog (Buddy, the standard poodle I mentioned earlier) in toe. She was entering the park next to the school when a young man approached her and started talking to her. Apparently, he was asking if she had seen his pet pitbull. Next thing I knew a pitbull came flying out from behind the park's bathrooms and launched itself toward my dog. It latched onto the side of his head, nearly taking out an eye.

My mom repeatedly kicked the dog in the b*lls, but thanks to their "gameness" it had little effect. I ran to a nearby closet and retrieved a baseball bat with every intention of killing that pitbull, but the principal stopped me at the door. That's all I remember.

I guess the kid finally pulled his pitbull off. Buddy's face, especially his ear, was awfully bloodied. He had puncture wounds near one of his eyes, but no damage to the eye itself. I don't believe the pitbull was ever found.

No one will ever convince me that pitbulls are not aggressive animals. I love dogs, reptiles, amphibians, rodents, you name it. Even cats and I'm horribly allergic. Those numbers do speak volumes. Half of all dog v. dog attacaks, human attacks, maimings and killings. Damn.

That sounds like a horrible experience. I was attacked by my grandmother's Poodle as a child. However I haven't made a breed-wide assumption that they are evil dogs.

By all means take positive personal expierence into account, but people have had both good and bad. In fact you probably have had to defend your reptiles at one time or another, or even your right to own them. No one should take that right from you, if you are a responsible owner.

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Originally Posted by darkangel

I was attacked by my grandmother's Poodle as a child.

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You must've been the single child-victim of a poodle attack since 1982. I'm sure the 495 children who've been attacked by pitbulls would really sympathize.

I understand both sides of the story and I understand the issues with the figures in that report. I'm a researcher, I know the ins and outs of data.

Based on personal experience and experiences others have shared with me and taking into consideration everything I have been taught, taught myself, read, etc., etc., I believe pitbulls are dangerous. Own them if you'd like, I can't stop you. You could be the most responsible pitbull owner in the world, but it wouldn't matter. Your dogs would still more likely than any others to harm another dog or a human.

Now I'm going to lunch.

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Originally Posted by nebby3103

You must've been the single child-victim of a poodle attack since 1982. I'm sure the 495 children who've been attacked by pitbulls would really sympathize.

I understand both sides of the story and I understand the issues with the figures in that report. I'm a researcher, I know the ins and outs of data.

Based on personal experience and experiences others have shared with me and taking into consideration everything I have been taught, taught myself, read, etc., etc., I believe pitbulls are dangerous. Own them if you'd like, I can't stop you. You could be the most responsible pitbull owner in the world, but it wouldn't matter. Your dogs would still more likely than any others to harm another dog or a human.

Now I'm going to lunch.

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Thousands of people get bitten by poodles every year. The poodles are just more likely to be forgiven for it.

I worked at a humane society for 3years! hundreds of pit bulls were put to sleep, because nobody would adopt them! everybody went for the sheppard mix, chow mix, LABS (AMERICAS FAVORITE DOG) and any animal that was small! for a number of reasons guess what! more than half of those dogs come back, are are put to sleep! Pits are aggressive because young kids, breed them over and over again, for that reason. they set up these fighting rings and make them fight! i know of a Pit rescue, where 50 pits, run around, play, and eat out of the same bowl! you put any dog in the wrong hands and you'll get bad results!

you see pit attacks all over the news! because rappers glorify them, boxers, sport players...they all have these dogs, and people see that and want to be like them! but what these people don't understand is that these dogs, are stubburn, determined, and need to be trained and socialized at a very young age (SIMPLE) Check out the dog whisper! My boy Ceaser will train anything!

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Originally Posted by reediculous

I worked at a humane society for 3years! hundreds of pit bulls were put to sleep, because nobody would adopt them! everybody went for the sheppard mix, chow mix, LABS (AMERICAS FAVORITE DOG) and any animal that was small! for a number of reasons guess what! more than half of those dogs come back, are are put to sleep! Pits are aggressive because young kids, breed them over and over again, for that reason. they set up these fighting rings and make them fight! i know of a Pit rescue, where 50 pits, run around, play, and eat out of the same bowl! you put any dog in the wrong hands and you'll get bad results!

you see pit attacks all over the news! because rappers glorify them, boxers, sport players...they all have these dogs, and people see that and want to be like them! but what these people don't understand is that these dogs, are stubburn, determined, and need to be trained and socialized at a very young age (SIMPLE) Check out the dog whisper! My boy Ceaser will train anything!

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Absolutely! I heart Ceasar! I got to see him talk live last year and he is even hotter in person. :D His body language is intensely communicative.

My brother worked for a dog obiedence school and he I and both were around dozens of pitbulls (I would visit as I liked seeing the dogs). Not a single one ever showed any aggression towards a person or other animal.

The problem are the owners not the dog, any violence they show can be easily squelched when they are young, the same is true of just about any dog. The problem is the owners do nothing about it. Another problem are people get a pitbull just for the very reason of wanting it to be aggressive. People using them to "sick" on other dogs, pitbulls, or people.

If a dog is never shown the difference between right and wrong it will never know. The same holds true for people, all little kids are violent sociopaths (they are most violent between ages 2-4). You have to teach them what's right and what's not.

This is starting to remind me of the nature/nurture debate. It's NOT JUST THE OWNERS, and it's NOT JUST THE DOGS. The dogs are predisposed to be aggressive. They can range from not very aggressive to killers on leashes. They are not born a blank slate, the are born with an aggressive instinct. Can you completely destroy that instinct through good training and responsible ownership? Probably not. But you can reduce the degree to which the trait is expressed.

Great post Tyree! I too worked at a shelter actually for the SPCA for a few months when I was 17. I know A LOT of pits were put down because no one wanted them. I also know that a lot of the other breeds of dogs that were adopted many came back to us. I didn't work there long because I couldn't handle their rules (pretty much just do what you are told and ask no questions about anything and god forbid it was about a certain cat or dog!!) and just being in that kind of environment really takes a toll on one's emotions.


Also Nebby, that's horrible to hear! I've seen some pits attack other dogs and cats around here. Never ever a pretty sight. My neighbor lost her dog to a pit fight like I said above. The police and animal control said they could not do anything about it since no one the boys and dogs do it. Made a lot of us around my neighborhood super mad because everyone knew where the dogs lived. My neighsbors son took it in to his own hands to well let's just say he took care of those two pits that killed his dog. I don't agree with killing an animal, but those dog's were just used to fight and do what they did and that was kill.

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Originally Posted by nebby3103

This is starting to remind me of the nature/nurture debate. It's NOT JUST THE OWNERS, and it's NOT JUST THE DOGS. The dogs are predisposed to be aggressive. They can range from not very aggressive to killers on leashes. They are not born a blank slate, the are born with an aggressive instinct. Can you completely destroy that instinct through good training and responsible ownership? Probably not. But you can reduce the degree to which the trait is expressed.

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I have to completly agree on this!

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Originally Posted by lillyorchid

Great post Tyree! I too worked at a shelter actually for the SPCA for a few months when I was 17. I know A LOT of pits were put down because no one wanted them. I also know that a lot of the other breeds of dogs that were adopted many came back to us. I didn't work there long because I couldn't handle their rules (pretty much just do what you are told and ask no questions about anything and god forbid it was about a certain cat or dog!!) and just being in that kind of environment really takes a toll on one's emotions.

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thats exactly what happen at my shelter! nobody cared anymore, and i was there for the animals......we had no say on who was put down, and if you had a favorite....on your day off they would PTS without telling you......you come in looking for your buddy, and he's gone! THE WORST THING EVER! ----my manager was stealing the money people would bring in, for the shelter....i got into a fist fight with him before i left! (i'm not condoning fighting, and by no means am i a fighter but this guy had it coming)


he was fired soon after for his actions........oh and was brought up on chargers for his actions!

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Originally Posted by nebby3103

This is starting to remind me of the nature/nurture debate. It's NOT JUST THE OWNERS, and it's NOT JUST THE DOGS. The dogs are predisposed to be aggressive. They can range from not very aggressive to killers on leashes. They are not born a blank slate, the are born with an aggressive instinct. Can you completely destroy that instinct through good training and responsible ownership? Probably not. But you can reduce the degree to which the trait is expressed.

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You have to show the animal the right way to behave! just like any dog! but what were trying to say is Pit Bulls are very strong dogs (will and strength) and they need a little more attention then your average dog! simple you will not train a pit in one session of (Pet Smart training) not gonna happen.....you need continuous, training........and these idiots (not all but most that have them) need training themselves!

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Originally Posted by nebby3103

This is starting to remind me of the nature/nurture debate. It's NOT JUST THE OWNERS, and it's NOT JUST THE DOGS. The dogs are predisposed to be aggressive. They can range from not very aggressive to killers on leashes. They are not born a blank slate, the are born with an aggressive instinct. Can you completely destroy that instinct through good training and responsible ownership? Probably not. But you can reduce the degree to which the trait is expressed.

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I know I said I was done, but great post. Also, I don't know why some of you are still comparing Pits to toy dogs. Even if they were as instinctively aggressive as pits, which they aren't, I think a pit would be the last dog on a list of dogs I would want to attack me. If a poodle ever bit me I would probably laugh before picking it up by it's scruff and tossing it into a tree. Most dogs, even if they are little hellions, are not anywhere near as dangerous as a pit bull. Do a Google Images search for pitbull bite, then do the same for poodle bite. Case and point.

Wow, aren't we nasty.

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Originally Posted by nebby3103

You must've been the single child-victim of a poodle attack since 1982. I'm sure the 495 children who've been attacked by pitbulls would really sympathize.

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And yeah, if you were a little kid and a poodle attacked you, you probably wouldn't laugh.

My Pit bull spent Easter Sunday in a back yard playing ball with 6 kids only one of which he knew and was as gentle as a kitten.
One of the problems with Pits, Rots, Shepards or really any dog is people don't teach the rules, what is acceptable behavior. Sometimes that takes a little tough love but that how their brains work. Pack leaders don't hand out happy face stickers to the pack to enforce behavior. Dogs are starving for guidance, it's how they are wired and how the survive in a pack. If you don't dominate, control and teach your dog correct behavior he will make up his own rules and enforce them on any one he feels is below him in the pecking order.
Like snakes people get animals and don't understand behavior, don't educate themselves about the animal and even reward aggressive behavior because it's cool. It's true Pit's have very competitive behavior. When that is fed, uncontroled and allowed you have a problem. My dog trainer told me don't even play tug of war with a dog. You are insighting competitive behavior which is how dogs learn who is the pack leader. Dogs compete by biting and aggressive behavior, the winner becomes pack leader. You must teach your dog that it is not acceptable behavior and your dog will not be aggressive. My Vet has been bitten by Chiuwahwa"s(spelling check) more than any other dog because owners let them get away with murder. Any dog can do harm but obviously big ones more. It is the responsibility of people to educate themselves before getting any animal but we all know that it is rarely done. My pit behaves like a soldier and is as cuddly as a kitten and has a great life because he was taught how to have one. He goes to work with me everyday and is everybodies best friend. When we have no guidance we have chaos.

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Originally Posted by westcoastjungle

My Pit bull spent Easter Sunday in a back yard playing ball with 6 kids only one of which he knew and was as gentle as a kitten.
One of the problems with Pits, Rots, Shepards or really any dog is people don't teach the rules, what is acceptable behavior. Sometimes that takes a little tough love but that how their brains work. Pack leaders don't hand out happy face stickers to the pack to enforce behavior. Dogs are starving for guidance, it's how they are wired and how the survive in a pack. If you don't dominate, control and teach your dog correct behavior he will make up his own rules and enforce them on any one he feels is below him in the pecking order.
Like snakes people get animals and don't understand behavior, don't educate themselves about the animal and even reward aggressive behavior because it's cool. It's true Pit's have very competitive behavior. When that is fed, uncontroled and allowed you have a problem. My dog trainer told me don't even play tug of war with a dog. You are insighting competitive behavior which is how dogs learn who is the pack leader. Dogs compete by biting and aggressive behavior, the winner becomes pack leader. You must teach your dog that it is not acceptable behavior and your dog will not be aggressive. My Vet has been bitten by Chiuwahwa"s(spelling check) more than any other dog because owners let them get away with murder. Any dog can do harm but obviously big ones more. It is the responsibility of people to educate themselves before getting any animal but we all know that it is rarely done. My pit behaves like a soldier and is as cuddly as a kitten and has a great life because he was taught how to have one. He goes to work with me everyday and is everybodies best friend. When we have no guidance we have chaos.

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Good post :D

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Originally Posted by reediculous

thats exactly what happen at my shelter! nobody cared anymore, and i was there for the animals......we had no say on who was put down, and if you had a favorite....on your day off they would PTS without telling you......you come in looking for your buddy, and he's gone!

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YES! The SPCA around me did the SAME THING! We were not able to ask about the animals, also we were not allowed to tell people why they were surrenderer or their past history.... then again we weren't supposed to know anything ourselves. Were not allowed to ask why said dog or cat was not there the next day, were not allowed to know if it was adopted or PTS, etc. HORRIBLE HORRIBLE things went on behind those closed doors. I was there for the animals, but the people working there made me HATE every second of it. I use to come home and just cry my eyes out to my father and boyfriend at the time!!!

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

People can make all the same arguments about anacondas compared to, let's say ball python. Yes there are some docile ones out there, they aren't all bad or mean, but they will still both attack more often and do way more damage than a ball python period.

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Bad analogy, IMO. (not to pick on you :D ) Yes pit bulls were bred to fight back in the day, and are still bred irresponsibly today by the most IGNORANT of thugs and sold to all their buddies as status symbols because these men are generally lacking manhood and need a dog to make up the difference for them. I have 4 female pits/ pitXs in my house and not one of them is inclined to attack ANYTHING! Oops, ok one of the pit mixes will attack rats and gobble them up like skittles or did as a puppy. LOL

I'll concede that a pit and an anaconda will do significant damage, but that is the only thing that gives your analogy any credence what so ever... IMO you can't really compare snakes to dogs... A pit who is unstable is a HUGE danger and a major safety concern. Pits were bred to be dog aggressive though, not human aggressive, and if you study the history a little you'll see that they washed the opponents' dogs before matches and that there were dogmen, not necessarily the owners, in the pits breaking up the fight if a dog fanged or something... if a dog attacked a dogman, it was culled and no decendents were produced... these days thuggish trash breeds FOR those traits and sells the offspring to the dumbest SOBs they can find and guess what?! Someone gets hurt...

Pits aren't more inclined to attack, check out their standings with the American Temperment Testing Society atts.org I believe. They beat out mutts, if I recall correctly.

Unfortunately pits are owned by and large *with glaring and wonderful exceptions* by the WORST dog owners out there... These people have their own theories on how to raise a dog be it simple neglect and a miserable life on a chain, physical abuse, denied socialization, fed gun powder... teased till they bite and then rewarded for it... or some mess with the puppies till the whine and then they beat them for weakness... I've seen pics of bait dogs with no nose who was euthanized just after the evidence photos were taken... dogs with drains running out of them on the mend from the horrors that are dog fighting...

This is not a breed for just anyone. They need to be fully stimulated and socialized. They need to be neutered (IMO) and not faced with excess frustrations like living on a chain etc. You need to be on your A game all the time (esp. at first) as their leader to ensure that when they're too big and strong for you to physically handle that they already understand that they're YOUR SUBORDINATE. You pretty much need to know what you're doing and be responsible... but boy are they worth it! I'm 5'2 and I can walk all four of the dogs ranging from 50-70 pounds (I can't believe the puppy is already 50 pounds OMG she's going to be huge!) The neighbor kids come over and run and play with them. I foster cats and kittens and Proof -the biggest one, my soul mate, from game lines- is the best kitten mommy you've ever seen. I've seen her defend kittens from overzealous dogs as well as just generally nurture kittens, she'll groom them and carry them in her mouth (scary sight, but the only damage is a wet kitten) Matter of fact, Proof has helped break up one huge dog fight and she's also laid out a dog who attacked another one of my dogs and my ex on a walk. She's never drawn blood though... ever. The other day the neighbor kids walked each of the dogs in a rotation around the block (with me there of course!) Their parents have asked that when I replace the fence that I put in a gate so their kids can still come over and play with my pit bulls.

I have sooo much to say on this subject, but I know if I keep going on and on that people will not read my posts LOL, so I'll cut it short (heh)

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Originally Posted by gibbrishclown

Bad analogy, IMO. (not to pick on you :D ) Yes pit bulls were bred to fight back in the day, and are still bred irresponsibly today by the most IGNORANT of thugs and sold to all their buddies as status symbols because these men are generally lacking manhood and need a dog to make up the difference for them. I have 4 female pits/ pitXs in my house and not one of them is inclined to attack ANYTHING! Oops, ok one of the pit mixes will attack rats and gobble them up like skittles or did as a puppy. LOL

I'll concede that a pit and an anaconda will do significant damage, but that is the only thing that gives your analogy any credence what so ever... IMO you can't really compare snakes to dogs... A pit who is unstable is a HUGE danger and a major safety concern. Pits were bred to be dog aggressive though, not human aggressive, and if you study the history a little you'll see that they washed the opponents' dogs before matches and that there were dogmen, not necessarily the owners, in the pits breaking up the fight if a dog fanged or something... if a dog attacked a dogman, it was culled and no decendents were produced... these days thuggish trash breeds FOR those traits and sells the offspring to the dumbest SOBs they can find and guess what?! Someone gets hurt...

Pits aren't more inclined to attack, check out their standings with the American Temperment Testing Society atts.org I believe. They beat out mutts, if I recall correctly.

Unfortunately pits are owned by and large *with glaring and wonderful exceptions* by the WORST dog owners out there... These people have their own theories on how to raise a dog be it simple neglect and a miserable life on a chain, physical abuse, denied socialization, fed gun powder... teased till they bite and then rewarded for it... or some mess with the puppies till the whine and then they beat them for weakness... I've seen pics of bait dogs with no nose who was euthanized just after the evidence photos were taken... dogs with drains running out of them on the mend from the horrors that are dog fighting...

This is not a breed for just anyone. They need to be fully stimulated and socialized. They need to be neutered (IMO) and not faced with excess frustrations like living on a chain etc. You need to be on your A game all the time (esp. at first) as their leader to ensure that when they're too big and strong for you to physically handle that they already understand that they're YOUR SUBORDINATE. You pretty much need to know what you're doing and be responsible... but boy are they worth it! I'm 5'2 and I can walk all four of the dogs ranging from 50-70 pounds (I can't believe the puppy is already 50 pounds OMG she's going to be huge!) The neighbor kids come over and run and play with them. I foster cats and kittens and Proof -the biggest one, my soul mate, from game lines- is the best kitten mommy you've ever seen. I've seen her defend kittens from overzealous dogs as well as just generally nurture kittens, she'll groom them and carry them in her mouth (scary sight, but the only damage is a wet kitten) Matter of fact, Proof has helped break up one huge dog fight and she's also laid out a dog who attacked another one of my dogs and my ex on a walk. She's never drawn blood though... ever. The other day the neighbor kids walked each of the dogs in a rotation around the block (with me there of course!) Their parents have asked that when I replace the fence that I put in a gate so their kids can still come over and play with my pit bulls.

I have sooo much to say on this subject, but I know if I keep going on and on that people will not read my posts LOL, so I'll cut it short (heh)

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Beautiful :sweeet: :sweeet: very nice post!

I don't understand why people go on and on about how horrible pitbulls are. I've met pitbulls before and of all the ones I've met, each and every one of them has been sweet as candy with a loving disposition. Pitbulls are acutally called "Nanny dogs" because they are so great with children. They are protective yes, but with some training, they will understand what is acceptable protection behavior and unacceptable behavior.

We got to babysit a pitbull puppy years ago and she was the cutest thing ever. She was much more well behaved than any of our other dogs. Comparing her to the lab/german shepard mix my brother had a while back, she was the essence of good. Nala, the lab mix bit everyone and my brother ended up having to find her a new home. Today, Paige, the pit puppy is a happy healthy, friendly dog with no bite record and ABSOLUTELY NO aggression issues. This is because she was trained from a young age how to behave.

Its like a child. If you let a child do whatever it wants, don't set rules and guidelines, ect, the child will be horrible. The same goes for any dog. I've been bitten by more small dogs than I have big ones and the only big dog to ever bite me was our rottie, who had an abusive past.

Pitbulls were not bred to fight. Earlier pits were bred to hunt boar. Hunting boar and being bred to fight other dogs are two seperate things. Even people who fight dogs train the dogs to be non-human aggressive.

http://www.workingpitbull.com/images/1sm.jpg Handlers even stay in the rink with these dogs.

Lets see, if your owner put you through all of this.....

http://bahamashumanesociety.com/albu...Bull.sized.jpg
http://www.workingpitbull.com/images/abuse2.jpg
http://www.realpitbull.com/images/skinny.jpg

I think you'd be a little pissed off too.

But, if a dog is brought up right, you can normally expect this...

http://www.workingpitbull.com/images/aaron2.jpg
http://www.pitbullproject.ca/may.jpg
http://www.workingpitbull.com/images/brei300w.jpg
http://img.viacomlocalnetworks.com/i...e_094164315/xl

When it all comes down to it, we as meat-eating animals are all prone to aggression. Its whether or not we keep it in check is what makes the difference. The same goes for ANY dog. With training and a good home, pitbulls can be loving, sweet, loyal, caring, compassionate, and downright wonderful companions. Its the bad things that people tend to focus on just because so many people use pitbulls for wrong purposes. If those owners were to suddenly switch to your beloved lab (who scores lower than the pitbull on the temperment tests) I think people would end up trying to ban those as well.

I think people need to start focusing on the people who can't seem to care for dogs properly and use them for dog fighting rather than the dogs themselves. Take a puppy, put it in the hands of a loving family who will care for it, train it, and love it, chances are, that puppy will grow up to be a irreplaceable member of that family. Take that same puppy, put it in the hands of some low-life looking to make some dollars, that dogs outlook is not so good. I understand that these dogs are not born with a blank slate, but with training, pits are wonderful pets.

So, lets stop bickering about how horrible pits are and take a look around and see what the real problem is. Its not that loyal dog sitting there playing with your children, its the criminals out there fighting dogs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gibbrishclown

Bad analogy, IMO. (not to pick on you :D ) Yes pit bulls were bred to fight back in the day, and are still bred irresponsibly today by the most IGNORANT of thugs and sold to all their buddies as status symbols because these men are generally lacking manhood and need a dog to make up the difference for them. I have 4 female pits/ pitXs in my house and not one of them is inclined to attack ANYTHING! Oops, ok one of the pit mixes will attack rats and gobble them up like skittles or did as a puppy. LOL

I'll concede that a pit and an anaconda will do significant damage, but that is the only thing that gives your analogy any credence what so ever... IMO you can't really compare snakes to dogs... A pit who is unstable is a HUGE danger and a major safety concern. Pits were bred to be dog aggressive though, not human aggressive, and if you study the history a little you'll see that they washed the opponents' dogs before matches and that there were dogmen, not necessarily the owners, in the pits breaking up the fight if a dog fanged or something... if a dog attacked a dogman, it was culled and no decendents were produced... these days thuggish trash breeds FOR those traits and sells the offspring to the dumbest SOBs they can find and guess what?! Someone gets hurt...

Pits aren't more inclined to attack, check out their standings with the American Temperment Testing Society atts.org I believe. They beat out mutts, if I recall correctly.

Unfortunately pits are owned by and large *with glaring and wonderful exceptions* by the WORST dog owners out there... These people have their own theories on how to raise a dog be it simple neglect and a miserable life on a chain, physical abuse, denied socialization, fed gun powder... teased till they bite and then rewarded for it... or some mess with the puppies till the whine and then they beat them for weakness... I've seen pics of bait dogs with no nose who was euthanized just after the evidence photos were taken... dogs with drains running out of them on the mend from the horrors that are dog fighting...

This is not a breed for just anyone. They need to be fully stimulated and socialized. They need to be neutered (IMO) and not faced with excess frustrations like living on a chain etc. You need to be on your A game all the time (esp. at first) as their leader to ensure that when they're too big and strong for you to physically handle that they already understand that they're YOUR SUBORDINATE. You pretty much need to know what you're doing and be responsible... but boy are they worth it! I'm 5'2 and I can walk all four of the dogs ranging from 50-70 pounds (I can't believe the puppy is already 50 pounds OMG she's going to be huge!) The neighbor kids come over and run and play with them. I foster cats and kittens and Proof -the biggest one, my soul mate, from game lines- is the best kitten mommy you've ever seen. I've seen her defend kittens from overzealous dogs as well as just generally nurture kittens, she'll groom them and carry them in her mouth (scary sight, but the only damage is a wet kitten) Matter of fact, Proof has helped break up one huge dog fight and she's also laid out a dog who attacked another one of my dogs and my ex on a walk. She's never drawn blood though... ever. The other day the neighbor kids walked each of the dogs in a rotation around the block (with me there of course!) Their parents have asked that when I replace the fence that I put in a gate so their kids can still come over and play with my pit bulls.

I have sooo much to say on this subject, but I know if I keep going on and on that people will not read my posts LOL, so I'll cut it short (heh)

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I read your whole post, but I still think my analogy of pitbull to toy breed = retic to ball python is a fair one. I understand what all of you pit supporters are saying, but you continue to blindly deny the aggressive instincts and massive power of pits. There are Bigger, stronger dogs out there, but people who want a mean dog or a fighting dog continue to use pit bulls. Why do you think this is?

We do understand that pits are powerful animals. So are people with guns and weapons that could kill hundreds. But, if socialized and trained correctly, pits are more likely to be big sweethearts instead of big killers.

Pit bulls were bred to fight other dogs and not too attack people. Just like someone said a few comments up that the handlers can handle the dogs while they are in hold ect or in the heat of battle without fear of getting bit. And people agressive dogs were shunned and put down and were not tolerated. Bad dogs = bad owners.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I read your whole post, but I still think my analogy of pitbull to toy breed = retic to ball python is a fair one. I understand what all of you pit supporters are saying, but you continue to blindly deny the aggressive instincts and massive power of pits. There are Bigger, stronger dogs out there, but people who want a mean dog or a fighting dog continue to use pit bulls. Why do you think this is?

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They have gained a reputation as a bad ass dog. You don't honestly think they pick them up as puppies and they just grow into this, do you? This is the kind of person that would taunt and torment a dog into aggressive tendencies. Also they're obviously not controlling the dog if they just get out and kill an animal, etc. I stand by the fact that this is proof of bad ownership, and any dog can be goaded into this kind of behavior.

I just don't understand the pitbull-retic thing... One is a mammal with a much more advanced central nervous system, the other is a cold-blooded reptile incapable of emotion.

Id also like to know of any other dog you could handle whole they are fighting without the fear of being bit. They also could be worked on after a fight without the owners having to fear being bitten. Anyone who says pitbulls are some kind of monster arent very educated on the breed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by darkangel

They have gained a reputation as a bad ass dog. You don't honestly think they pick them up as puppies and they just grow into this, do you? This is the kind of person that would taunt and torment a dog into aggressive tendencies. Also they're obviously not controlling the dog if they just get out and kill an animal, etc. I stand by the fact that this is proof of bad ownership, and any dog can be goaded into this kind of behavior.

I just don't understand the pitbull-retic thing... One is a mammal with a much more advanced central nervous system, the other is a cold-blooded reptile incapable of emotion.

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I agree completely. You're talking about a highly social animal with a complex hierarchy who is totally capable of being educated, vs. an instinctive and thoughtless eating machine.

I really believe that people who argue against pits are those who've never worked with dogs in large numbers. It's easy to read the media reports and hear the scary stories from my brother's room-mates second cousin's aunt who knew a dog who killed a kid. It's a whole 'nother thing to work with them on a daily basis in situtations where they are distressed, fearful, and in pain.

I have seen a pitbull with a badly broken and unset leg hobble around wagging his tail while a toddler pulled on his ears. I've had pitbulls hit by cars who dragged themselves across the floor on their front legs so they could put their heads in my lap and give kisses. I've seen a dog shot in the face and missing half his jaw who went through months of painful medical treatments, yet still bounded joyfully into the clinic every single visit and wanted nothing more lethal than to see how far he could get his tongue down your ear (gummy kisses from a dog with no teeth feel wieeeeeeerd). I have had dogs come in fresh out of fights with gashes and punctures over their whole bodies, unable to stand or lift their heads, but you can hear that happy tail thumping away on the stretcher. Pits are absolutely the easiest dogs to work with, hands down. No matter what horrible painful treatment you have to put them through, they just keep forgiving you.

These are not vicious dogs...they are incredibly staunch and loving animals, put into bad situations and doing their best to survive whatever indignities people thrust upon them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I read your whole post, but I still think my analogy of pitbull to toy breed = retic to ball python is a fair one. I understand what all of you pit supporters are saying, but you continue to blindly deny the aggressive instincts and massive power of pits. There are Bigger, stronger dogs out there, but people who want a mean dog or a fighting dog continue to use pit bulls. Why do you think this is?

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I never mentioned toy breeds... I have been bitten by many toy breeds... they tend to be unstable because people treat them like kids or accessories and don't train them properly... or should I say the ones that are nasty are nasty for this reason for the most part.

The only reason I'd "deny" the "aggressive instincts" as you describe them is because I don't see them in the animals that I live with. I've seen pits be dog aggressive... I have a tale about breaking up a 4 pit bull fight in my yard all by my self below... I've heard the tales of killer pits killing kids, maiming people- I get that they can be very aggressive and are extremely powerful! Believe me I get it. I would argue that pound for pound pits are stronger than almost any other breed I'm familiar with... no others are coming to mind right now that are more heavily muscled or capable... I believe they're heavily represented in weight pull competitions as well. I'm only arguing that it's not that the breed itself is more likely to be aggressive by NATURE ONLY... THAT IT'S THE BREED... I believe that they're good for it if that's what you want and make of them and waaay too many people want that and create monsters.

I think they use pits due to the gameness and tenacity... I've seen my Proof continue to play ball with a shard of glass in her foot bleeding EVERYWHERE... She actually has had toenails come off and she runs on the pulp of her nail for weeks afterwards... she's TOUGH AS NAILS! (no pun) The puppy I have can be just whipped around by the bigger dogs, she can be slapped by ignorant people, (her only correction is with a squirt gun!) she doesn't respond to pain as an inhibitor... this is a great trait in a gladiator. They're damn good at what they do when they do attack, absolutely, I won't fight you there...

Dog aggression is one thing that is common in pits... people aggression is not! And here's my anecdote on the subject:

2 years ago on May 1, Corona's 1st birthday, I gave her a ball in the yard, which was foolish to do with my ex's dogs out in the yard. His dogs were both in tact and unstable due to his absence (I'd kicked him out the October before, but housed his dogs till he had a place for them -I burned all his other possessions) and my inability to handle all that was going on at the time. Killian tore into Corona's throat first and I grabbed him off but he reattached to her thigh. He attacked her a lot over food, but I had enough control over him that we all slept in the same bed and I just fed them seperately (there are so many things I was doing wrong then, don't think I don't see that in hind sight :D) Brandy joined in the frey and got right on Corona's throat. Proof grabbed Corona by the scruff of the neck and just started pulling... I was confused, groggy, and quite possibly hung over from the night before, but I laid down on top of Corona. I got hurt, so I started throwing punches... (that only increases the aggression BTW or gets them to turn on you) I got hurt more and they weren't relenting. I stuck my hands in their mouths and tried to make them let go of the puppy... no dice. Finally I used my whole forearm as a break stick and picked Killian up under the belly with his mouth around my arm and I carried him into the house and crated him. He was fine once I got him away from the fight. When I got back outside Proof had Brandy by the throat pinned and Corona was in a heap up against the garage. I got ALL the other dogs in crates and took Corona to the bathroom to clean her up and assess the damage. The water hit my hand where (of all things) Corona had bit through it (I believe she was just closing her eyes and biting at that point and I surely don't blame her) and I knew that she needed to see a vet if I was in such pain, and I'd heard a pop sound when she bit through my hand, so I wanted to get checked out by a doc too... I was fine, a few bruises and some puncture wounds... a new anxiety LOL... Corona is fine today... she got pain meds from the vet and antibiotics... I got saline and hydrogen peroxide (boy did I feel like a sissy when I found out my hand wasn't broken and the popping noise was just her biting through my hand) Point is that if these dogs are the fierce killers everyone says they are, I wouldn't have gotten up from that fight they would have attacked me and killed me... they didn't the only injuries I had were from sticking my hands and arms into the fight and on my back from laying on the puppy... Besides, with Proof being from game lines with an ace for a father (supposedly) shouldn't she have gotten into the fight for blood and not to end it? If their bloodlines are everything why would she break up a fight instead of just getting in it and killing?

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to slartibartfast again."



I've worked with dogs quite awhile. I've never been bitten by a pit. Bassetts, Poodles, Beagles, a few Labs and even a Golden Retriever but never a pit.

Too many people base their opinions on what they see in the news room (though how many journalists can identify a pitbull?) instead of hands on experience with these dogs. The bassett bite was one of the worst I had, broke the skin, left a deep dark nasty bruise and put my hand out of commision for awhile. Do I hate bassett hounds now? Of course not. Every dog is an individual.

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Originally Posted by Entropy

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to slartibartfast again."



I've worked with dogs quite awhile. I've never been bitten by a pit. Bassetts, Poodles, Beagles, a few Labs and even a Golden Retriever but never a pit.

Too many people base their opinions on what they see in the news room (though how many journalists can identify a pitbull?) instead of hands on experience with these dogs. The bassett bite was one of the worst I had, broke the skin, left a deep dark nasty bruise and put my hand out of commision for awhile. Do I hate bassett hounds now? Of course not. Every dog is an individual.

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Great points!... I got a message telling me I had spread too much reputation for this 24 hour period... didn't know that could happen :D But now I'll have to just post that I like a post rather than spreading rep for the next 24 Heh heh heh :cool: