When it rains...

So, I have this overwhelming feeling that I'm almost obligated to inform all of you that I lost Nova, my little pastel male. Maybe it's the 100 pix I've posted of him... or the 1,000 great comments that you all have made about him... I am going to try and give all the details in hopes that someone will learn from this... not to have it thrown in my face that I didn't get him to a vet soon enough. Believe me, I feel bad enough... and lesson learned. I am going to ramble a bit... sorry...

I recently made a thread about some retired feeder mice... they were extremely fat... like morbidly nasty fat.... I ran one rat/mouse short at feeding... and wound up feeding one to Nova... I was trying to get him as large as possible before next year... (he had eaten prey that size before in rat form... so that was not the problem)...as I recently wound up with several more BP's with hopes to breed him to the Norm females next year? I wanted to know that I had raised him from a hatch-ling... and now look...! He's got all these hot females! Any way..

3 days later after the mouse he regurged for the first time ...
When I found him around midnight, there was the most horrid smell in the room... he had tipped his water (where the remaining mouseish goo stuff was) and proceeded to climb in/out of the bile? ... he was COVERED in this acidic, fatty, bile.... as well as his tub, hide, bedding etc... So I rushed him to the sink and rinsed him in in VERY mild dish soap/water to get the greasy, nasty, residue and smell off of him... Sterilised his tub... scrubbed water dish and hide... changed aspen bedding... OK.. I'll NEVER feed anything that fatty again... lesson learned... next day I check him, and he acts uncomfortable... I look at his belly and it's red approx every other/ or third scale... no where else... I rinse his belly with 50% water/h. peroxide... and put some Polly-sporin on the bad areas.... I put him on paper towels... started reading anything on scale rot, blister disease, etc... Went and got some Betadine... that night the red areas had blistered... I soaked him in water/Betadine.... no other areas on him... Next day... the first areas were better... but there were now blisters on his sides... and a few more on his belly...

I ruled out burn....not that his tub gets hot enough, I thought possibly with the greasymouse stuff on him? He might have burned? No... because areas appeared on his sides, I ruled out an RI.. never any signs...clear mouth/nose... I rule out "rot" because... you'll haft to take my word for it, but my snakes do not lay in their own poo..... They are all very clean, as I try my best to provide them all the comfort that I can...... and again... areas rose on his sides...

So... I decide this is almost the equivalent of a chemical burn... from the acidic regurge juice that he wallowed in... I mean, he was covered in it... The liquid was so harsh that my eyes burned while rinsing him clean... So because the original areas were already looking better... I figured we were having round two of these areas...and hopefully he will be over this. If not then to the vet on Mon... well... day 3 of this... dead. His entire belly looked like it had gone over a cheese grater... and his sides and back had double the sores........... I can't tell you how horrible I feel.

It's like what ever this was... double timed and just, killed him.

So again, I'll never know what the cause was.... and I will NEVER hesitate to take one to the vet at the FIRST sign of anything... even if it appears that I had a handle on it because the first areas had started to heal... I was very wrong... and he paid for it.

Again, I just wanted you all to know.

Laura

:hug: I am SO sorry, hon... That had to be terrible to go through. It was brave of you to post about it, and I certainly hope that no one's going to go through a lecture at you.

It sounds as if you tried to handle the problem to the best of your ability...and there's no guarantee that a vet trip the first day would have been able to save him, so try not to beat yourself up about it.

Drop me a PM if you ever need to ramble, Okay?

Thanks Kim.... really.

Very sorry to hear you lost one of your guys, sometimes when we lose a pet it makes us question everything we know.........or dont. :(

Laura, I'm so sorry to hear that. I know how hard it was to lose your boy and even harder to talk about that loss. :hug:

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Originally Posted by Laooda

and lesson learned.

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I am so very sorry to hear this Laura :( Thank you for sharing your experience and I know that others will be able to use your tragedy as an example. Anybody that has spent 2 minutes with you knows how deeply you care about all animals and I'm sure his time with you was wonderful. I always enjoyed the pics of him on the BBQ grill!

Nova:Soon to be missed but never forgotten!

Not that I am into sensation pics - but can you post a pic of the effected areas?
Acid can not harm (snake) skin after it was flushed off - acid only can cause harm as long as it is applied - there is nothing like an after effect, unless the scales were totally desintegrated.


Robin

SORRY

Sorry to hear about your loss :hug: .

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

Very sorry to hear you lost one of your guys, sometimes when we lose a pet it makes us question everything we know.........or dont. :(

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This is very true... Thanks Ed.

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

Laura, I'm so sorry to hear that. I know how hard it was to lose your boy and even harder to talk about that loss. :hug:

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I'm still kinda in shock... ? The empty spot where his tub was is sooo wrong..... And thank you.... :hug:

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Originally Posted by cueball

I am so very sorry to hear this Laura :( Thank you for sharing your experience and I know that others will be able to use your tragedy as an example. Anybody that has spent 2 minutes with you knows how deeply you care about all animals and I'm sure his time with you was wonderful. I always enjoyed the pics of him on the BBQ grill!

Nova:Soon to be missed but never forgotten!

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Thank you Chris.... :hug: true.

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Originally Posted by LilRobb

Not that I am into sensation pics - but can you post a pic of the effected areas?
Acid can not harm (snake) skin after it was flushed off - acid only can cause harm as long as it is applied - there is nothing like an after effect, unless the scales were totally desintegrated.


Robin

SORRY

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Robin,

I'm kicking myself for not getting pix of the sequence as it happened... as camera happy as I am... I can't believe I didn't document this... Sorry... :( I really wish I had now... and there was no noticable damage for several days after the regurge...

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Originally Posted by GA_Ball_Pythons

Sorry to hear about your loss :hug: .

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Thank you Deborah.... :hug:

What an absolutely horrible thing for you to go through. Aside from not feeding the fatty mouse (which is not that obvious -not- to do, you know?), I'm not sure what more you could have done. I remember reading another thread about this somewhere else in which two snakes were burned by the regurge, and only one survived but with horrible scarring and it took months to recover. Flushing with clean water and applying salves...I don't know what else a vet could have done either for something like that. Just supportive care and tincture of time; which you gave him.

The only thing I probably would have done differently is not apply hydrogen peroxide...that can actually cause cell damage, and doesn't really clean anything. The only time hydrogen peroxide should be involved in wound care is for cleaning up after the fact. At the veternary ER where I work, we only use it for getting blood out of our scrubs, and for applying to fur (away from open wounds) to remove bloodstains.

A Special thanks to Catawhat 75... for the very kind words through pm.... :hug:

Oh Laura! :hug: I'm just heartbroken to read this...and I can only imagine how devestated you must be! I have NO doubt in my mind that you did everthing possible and as right as you knew to do it. It's just one of those horrible things in life we have to go through sometimes. :rainon: I SO wish there were something more I could do than mere cyber-hugs. But at least please know you have all my sympathy and understanding. :hug:

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Originally Posted by slartibartfast

What an absolutely horrible thing for you to go through. Aside from not feeding the fatty mouse (which is not that obvious -not- to do, you know?), I'm not sure what more you could have done. I remember reading another thread about this somewhere else in which two snakes were burned by the regurge, and only one survived but with horrible scarring and it took months to recover. Flushing with clean water and applying salves...I don't know what else a vet could have done either for something like that. Just supportive care and tincture of time; which you gave him.

The only thing I probably would have done differently is not apply hydrogen peroxide...that can actually cause cell damage, and doesn't really clean anything. The only time hydrogen peroxide should be involved in wound care is for cleaning up after the fact. At the veternary ER where I work, we only use it for getting blood out of our scrubs, and for applying to fur (away from open wounds) to remove bloodstains.

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Thank you...! I wonder if the peroxide/water was what advanced it? :(

At any rate... thank you for the info. really....

I am so terribly sorry!


I wanted to let you know that your hope that your posting this might help someone is accomplished :) I learned a lot from your story. It never occurred to me that regurge would be so damaging, and it also never occurred to me that a fat mouse might be dangerous as well.

Please don't blame yourself for what happened - it all seemed innocent and under control by the sound of it, until suddenly it was over. Hindsight is always 20/20 and even now it's not 100% clear what exactly happened and why.
Is it too late to get a necropsy done? There could have been an internal problem all along and the fat mouse a coincidence.

either way, I still see you as completely competant and loving and hope to learn lots from you in the future *HUGS*

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Originally Posted by JLC

Oh Laura! :hug: I'm just heartbroken to read this...and I can only imagine how devestated you must be! I have NO doubt in my mind that you did everthing possible and as right as you knew to do it. It's just one of those horrible things in life we have to go through sometimes. :rainon: I SO wish there were something more I could do than mere cyber-hugs. But at least please know you have all my sympathy and understanding. :hug:

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Judy... thank you so much for the kind words. It really means a lot! And trust me, cyber hugs are great for me, and mean just as much ! :oops:

:hug:
Laura

im very sorry to hear about the loss of your favorite little guy. i can feel your pain just by reading the whole ordeal.:hug:

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Originally Posted by fishmommy

I am so terribly sorry!


I wanted to let you know that your hope that your posting this might help someone is accomplished :) I learned a lot from your story. It never occurred to me that regurge would be so damaging, and it also never occurred to me that a fat mouse might be dangerous as well.

Please don't blame yourself for what happened - it all seemed innocent and under control by the sound of it, until suddenly it was over. Hindsight is always 20/20 and even now it's not 100% clear what exactly happened and why.
Is it too late to get a necropsy done? There could have been an internal problem all along and the fat mouse a coincidence.

either way, I still see you as completely competant and loving and hope to learn lots from you in the future *HUGS*

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Thank you... that was the main reason I posted... If in fact that was the cause. And yes... too late. That accompanies not getting any pix too... like you said, hindsight really is 20/20.
But thank you again for your kind words... they really do mean a lot....*hugs*

Laura :hug:

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Originally Posted by bigballs

im very sorry to hear about the loss of your favorite little guy. i can feel your pain just by reading the whole ordeal.:hug:

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Thank you......... :( it really hit me this morning.

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Originally Posted by Laooda

Thank you...! I wonder if the peroxide/water was what advanced it? :(

At any rate... thank you for the info. really....

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As fast as this seems to have progressed, I don't think it was a big factor, if at all. The "no peroxide" thing was just a general caution, for future reference to anyone reading this thread. I can't remember where I saw the other thread...it had pictures up, and the amount of damage caused was just apalling. Like you, they described the slippery feeling, and the feeling of shock that so much damage could happen so quickly, as well as how much it progressed after the fact.

Were it not for threads like these, I would never have known that regurge could be so dangerous. As others have already expressed, thank you for sharing this experience so that we can all learn from it.

Whoa! I was actually caught off guard reading your post! I am truely sorry for your loss! I have no doubt in my mind that you did everything you possibly could to try to help the little guy. *HUGS*

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Originally Posted by slartibartfast

As fast as this seems to have progressed, I don't think it was a big factor, if at all. The "no peroxide" thing was just a general caution, for future reference to anyone reading this thread. I can't remember where I saw the other thread...it had pictures up, and the amount of damage caused was just apalling. Like you, they described the slippery feeling, and the feeling of shock that so much damage could happen so quickly, as well as how much it progressed after the fact.

Were it not for threads like these, I would never have known that regurge could be so dangerous. As others have already expressed, thank you for sharing this experience so that we can all learn from it.

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That was my intention... 100% I'm am glad to share, even with the outcome being what it was... If you ever come across the other thread, I would really like to read it... But it sounds like it was the same scenario? At any rate. Thank you again...

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Originally Posted by daaangconcepts

Whoa! I was actually caught off guard reading your post! I am truely sorry for your loss! I have no doubt in my mind that you did everything you possible could to try to help the little guy. *HUGS*

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Thank you Susan.. ***Hugggggs*** I was so shocked... still am? Very surreal.... ???
Thanks again...

Laura,
I am sorry to here about your loss. Losing a pet is always heart wrenching. I have, fortunately lost very few snakes in my time collecting them, and hated each time that one passed. Your explanation was very thorough, and I wish I could give you some insight into his death. However, I have never heard of anything like this before, and would love any other info that you may think of or discover. Hugs go out to you for your loss. Keep your chin up, that smokin female Pastel will help to fill your void.

Laura :hug: - I am so sorry to hear about little Nova. Can you post a picture in memory of him?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Can you post a picture in memory of him?

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Great idea Raber!!

My fave...Nova on the grill :grouphug:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...s/IMG_2135.jpg

Oh no.. I feel so bad about all this. I know that you care deeply about your animals from just talking to you.. oh hell. I am really at a loss for words.. I just hope that you don't beat yourself up too much, because we all make mistakes and really it seems as though you didn't think it was escalating into a worse situation.. please PM me if you need to talk anytime.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

Laura,
I am sorry to here about your loss. Losing a pet is always heart wrenching. I have, fortunately lost very few snakes in my time collecting them, and hated each time that one passed. Your explanation was very thorough, and I wish I could give you some insight into his death. However, I have never heard of anything like this before, and would love any other info that you may think of or discover. Hugs go out to you for your loss. Keep your chin up, that smokin female Pastel will help to fill your void.

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Tim,

Thank you. If I think of any additional information I will absolutely post it... It all happened so fast... the progression that is... that being said, your words mean alot.... *hugs* to you too!
L

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Laura :hug: - I am so sorry to hear about little Nova. Can you post a picture in memory of him?

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Hugs back Rab... & I think that is a great idea.... :hug:

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Originally Posted by cueball

Great idea Raber!!

My fave...Nova on the grill :grouphug:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...s/IMG_2135.jpg

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Ugh.....


ouch... he was such a doll..........

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

Oh no.. I feel so bad about all this. I know that you care deeply about your animals from just talking to you.. oh hell. I am really at a loss for words.. I just hope that you don't beat yourself up too much, because we all make mistakes and really it seems as though you didn't think it was escalating into a worse situation.. please PM me if you need to talk anytime.

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Thank you Gin.... :hug:

It appears that I have handed out all my allotted good reps! :oops: So to everyone, if you didn't get one with a thank you... it is with you in my mind. I am overwhelmed by all the kind words, and am truly touched. They will not be forgotten, nor will all the support.

<3 Laura

I am very sorry to hear that. I agree that it sounds like something to do with the regurg acid, possibly if it burned your eyes he asperated too much and he could have had similar burns internally on the lungs. I know your post helped to educate me, and i hope it has helped others as well. But no matter what i can tell from your posts that you cared about him very much. I am very sorry, losing a pet is never easy.:hug:
~mike

Awwww man. I'm so sorry to hear about this. Very very sad!!! I was a little caught off when I read that you had lost him. I thought as if he had gotten out and you were unable to find him at the moment.... not that he had passed on. That was till I read the whole thing. :( man my heart goes out to the both of you. I hope you bury him in a nice place. I know you are in some heart aching pain right now but I always try to think that they are now out of pain and in a better place. Just remember all the good times you have had with him and all the smiles he brought you. Once again I'm super sorry that this has happened to you. :(

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Laura :hug: - I am so sorry to hear about little Nova. Can you post a picture in memory of him?

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Great idea....:oops: :tears: :oops: and for some reason I'm seeing hearts instead of green dotts... Thank you to whoever did that! :oops:

First pix...
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...Mathias009.jpg

and the last... he was up to 300g..... and getting prettier every day.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...s/balls011.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...s/balls010.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...s/balls007.jpg

I'm going to eat a lot of something now..........

Hugs to everyone.......

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

I am very sorry to hear that. I agree that it sounds like something to do with the regurg acid, possibly if it burned your eyes he asperated too much and he could have had similar burns internally on the lungs. I know your post helped to educate me, and i hope it has helped others as well. But no matter what i can tell from your posts that you cared about him very much. I am very sorry, losing a pet is never easy.:hug:
~mike

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Thank you Mike.... :hug:
I'm really gonna miss the little bugger.

Allison, thanks....

:hug:
L

Oh honey I am so sorry to hear about this. :( :grouphug:


I had saved the thread mentioned earlier about another snake damaged by regurge and it also mentions using really fatty rodents so maybe that is an important factor we need to get some professional opinions on?

http://www.reptilepets.co.za/rp06123b.htm


I think the original chemical burns are bad enough but that some kind of secondary reaction/ infection starts afterwards. :confuzd:

I think you are owed at least a gallon of ice cream per day for a couple of weeks for keeping people informed about this - maybe even with the information in the other thread combined this might lead to a discovery that makes sure no one else has to suffer it.



dr del

I am soooo sorry for your loss. I lost my favorite girl last year and it still hurts when i think about her. I am a strong believer in finding the positive out of the negative. I thank you for sharing! I think we all can learn a really important lesson from your horrible experience and hopefully avoid this from happening to someone else. I never heard of high fat regurg, It could have happened to anyone and hopefully now it won't happen to any one else.

Laooda,

What a horrible thing you have gone through. I think you are such a sweet person and I feel terrible for you. How brave to post what you did I know it must of been difficult for you. And thank you for posting it, I still feel like I learn so much everyday about these snakes and honestly would have never of known this could happen, without your honesty and description of the events maybe none of us would of realized something like this could happen.

Big hugs to you!

I'm sorry to hear about your little guy! I couldn't fathom losing one of my little ones. Hope you're doing okay! :hug:

Oh sweet heart I am so sorry to hear that..Your in my prayers.

Hi Laooda,

Gee, really sorry to hear about your loss. This happened to me last year and the common factors seems to be the fat feeders.
I made posts in various forums and posted the Regurgitated meal causes skin damage. article on my site.

The problem we experienced is how to get the fatty regurgitate out from under the scales, where if any residual material is left, it continues to eat at the under lying skin of the snake and cause infection and skin damage.

When washing the snake, wash only from head to tail. From tail to head may push residual material under the scales. Maybe followed by a good fine spray and or nail brush (gently) to try and wash any material out from under the scales.

In our case the area worst affected was the side of the snake and not the under belly.

A course of antibiotics would be a must. Skin damage is one thing, but at least the snake recovers. Infection however is terminal.

Chestnut, our survivor is doing well and eating like a horse. Scarring is still visible and maybe shows very slight improvement with each shed.

Laura,

I am sorry for your loss and respect your bravery to post up the details you had in the face of possible persecution. It sounds to me that you did everything you could possibly do. I am sure that Nova passing will be a learning experience for everyone here. I, too, was unaware of problems with a fatty mouse and the regurge problem.

Hugs out to you sweetheart and keep your chin up!

Awww - RIP Nova boy! He was a handsome devil!

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Originally Posted by Laooda

Great idea....:oops: :tears: :oops: and for some reason I'm seeing hearts instead of green dotts... Thank you to whoever did that! :oops:

First pix...
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...Mathias009.jpg

and the last... he was up to 300g..... and getting prettier every day.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...s/balls011.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...s/balls010.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...s/balls007.jpg

I'm going to eat a lot of something now..........

Hugs to everyone.......

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Oh Laura, I am just so incredibly sorry for your loss. He was gorgeous, and I know you gave him the best care you could.
I also want to thank you for posting about it, it will definitely help me in knowing what to watch for.
:hug:

I just read this, and I am just falbberghasted. I had no idea regurge could be so darn dangerous - and I applaude you greatly for posting your experience. Nova was a beaut, and I am so sorry you lost him.

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Originally Posted by slartibartfast

The only time hydrogen peroxide should be involved in wound care is for cleaning up after the fact. At the veternary ER where I work, we only use it for getting blood out of our scrubs, and for applying to fur (away from open wounds) to remove bloodstains.

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Just to clear things up about hydrogen peroxide - the idea behind this cleaning agent is to introduce Oxygen to anaerobic bacteria/organisms (bacteria that doesn't like or cant tolerate oxygen), which will hopefully in turn kill them off.