Are your Balls for breeding?

I was curious how many people on here are keeping Ball Pythons strictly as pets vs. potentially breeding and selling.

I keep them all as pets with the benefit of being about to breed them.

Right now my girly is just a pet but after I get out of school I may breed her...I definately plan on getting more, but for what I'm not sure. It could be pretty neat.

I voted other. I intend to keep them as pets with the possibility of breeding without 'selling' being a factor.


After reading many opinions and discussions on the captive keeping of reptiles, I have developed the personal opinion that since we keep reptiles as captives then we should allow them to undergo as many 'life processes' as possible. I have no desire to deny an animal a basic 'life process' such as reproduction. Money or selling has nothing to do with it.

If someone keeps an reptile with no intention of breeding, what true purpose does that animal serve in the end? It is 'kept' solely for the keepers' enjoyment then eventually it dies. However an animal that is bred in captivity is provided the opportunity to pass on its genetics to offspring and partake of a major 'life event'.

I believe that since captive born offspring in the 'market' are competition to wild caught animals in the 'market'..... it will one day have a great effect on this hobby.

So even if you are keeping a normal pair of ball pythons (or a pair of ANY reptile), what reasons are there not to breed? Besides the costs associated with caring for a pair of animals, what 'extra' costs are associated with breeding? No costs are specific to the breeding process and the cost associated with the incubation and initial care of a clutch or two of eggs is not so bad it will break the bank. Even if the incubation and start-up costs for a clutch of eggs are too much for someone, they can always sell the offspring......a clutch of 6 normal ball pythons can easily be sold for $20 each to any local pet store...that would pretty much cover the cost of incubating a single clutch ($40 homemade incubator or hovabator, $20 for electricity, $10 for medium) plus you would have some leftover to feed and house the babies.....PLUS...you will have the added experience of breeding snakes, incubating eggs, and caring for young....PLUS...your snakes will have had the chance to complete a 'life process'.
.....so that is just my general take on breeding reptiles that you keep as 'pets'. Keeping single animals/non-breeding animals is fine in my book if that is what you desire (so I am not 'fussin' at people that do not intend to breed ;)). I just like to ask...If you have a pair of reptiles, what reason is there not to breed??

My ball pythons are pets 1st breeders 2nd. I do hope to breed and sell the offspring, but only for the intent of being able to purchase more/different ball python morphs.
Getting some nice high white piebalds in the future is my main goal as well as being able to breed some great looking snakes to keep for myself.

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Originally Posted by panthercz

My ball pythons are pets 1st breeders 2nd. I do hope to breed and sell the offspring, but only for the intent of being able to purchase more/different ball python morphs.
Getting some nice high white piebalds in the future is my main goal as well as being able to breed some great looking snakes to keep for myself.

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x2

I want to breed to sell so I can afford more morphs. My goal with this hobby is to be one that will pay for itself.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

So even if you are keeping a normal pair of ball pythons (or a pair of ANY reptile), what reasons are there not to breed?

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While I don't really agree with most of your reasoning, this particular point begs a question: What about green iguanas and burmese pythons and other reptiles that are filling reptile-rescues because they are easy to get and hard to keep?

While I think there is a place for captive breeding of many reptiles...I think such things should be done by people with the passion and the temperment to properly see such a commitment through to the end with the best possible care for all the animals involved....not just anyone who happens to have a pair of something.

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Originally Posted by tmlowe5704

I want to breed to sell so I can afford more morphs. My goal with this hobby is to be one that will pay for itself.

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That is exactly how I feel. In the last several years my collection of tegus and ball pythons has grown, all purchased from 'profit' from the animals I bred and sold, but I have yet to 'make money'. I look ahead at my future plans and I see where I will keep 'profiting', but never 'make money'. It always goes right back into the reptiles. ;)

Rick

Oh...to answer the poll question a bit more directly...I DO plan to breed one day...although that's likely years down the road for me. But that does not mean my animals would be any less beloved than if they were strictly pets. :)

I said other because I'm not sure I'm going to breed or not. Depends on a lot of things. Where I'm living, if I have room for a hatchery, if I can convince my SO thats its MY hobby and its a good thing to do :)

and that goes with any additional snakes I may gather...the possibility of breeding will be there, but it depends on working out the logistics of the situation.

I voted "other." My females are or will all be bred. My Spider and Pastel males too. But LaVey, my normal male, is strictly a pet snake.. maybe a backup breeder for next year if the others don't do the job..
My BCI male is strictly a pet also..

My pets will breed!!!! :)

I should add; though they are bred/will be, I do look at them as pets. I name them all, and notice their little funny quirks that make them individuals.. the day that they became merely breeding stock and held no special meaning for me, would be the day they got sold (not happening, hehe.)

This is pretty interesting! Thanks for your responses :rockon:

I know what you mean about the 'life process' argument. Coming from the Cichlid Fish world, I learned over time how different and active the fish's behavior was when both sexes were present. Many people keep all-male tanks (the males are the pretty ones) but I have often argued that the fish have much more fulfilling and natural lives when allowed to court and spawn.

However, I also saw first hand the flip side where I would sell fish that I had produced and later find out that they had all died due to a mistake by their keeper. I never sold to pets stores because I feared the poor treatment that often results (in my opinion) but even when I sold direct to other people who had the right setup, it still often resulted in death for the fish. This is why I stopped breeding fish completely unless I intended to keep the young.

I would fear that with snakes selling them will also run a high risk for the animal. I am learning that reptile keeping is very misunderstood and many mistakes are made by keepers - especially the keepers that usually buy from pet stores. I know this is a gross generalization but I am speaking from the gut my own feelings :)

Anyway, so I see both sides of the breeding issue. I think they are both good and risky.

good discussion!

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Originally Posted by fishmommy

This is pretty interesting! Thanks for your responses :rockon:

I know what you mean about the 'life process' argument. Coming from the Cichlid Fish world, I learned over time how different and active the fish's behavior was when both sexes were present. Many people keep all-male tanks (the males are the pretty ones) but I have often argued that the fish have much more fulfilling and natural lives when allowed to court and spawn.

However, I also saw first hand the flip side where I would sell fish that I had produced and later find out that they had all died due to a mistake by their keeper. I never sold to pets stores because I feared the poor treatment that often results (in my opinion) but even when I sold direct to other people who had the right setup, it still often resulted in death for the fish. This is why I stopped breeding fish completely unless I intended to keep the young.

I would fear that with snakes selling them will also run a high risk for the animal. I am learning that reptile keeping is very misunderstood and many mistakes are made by keepers - especially the keepers that usually buy from pet stores. I know this is a gross generalization but I am speaking from the gut my own feelings :)

Anyway, so I see both sides of the breeding issue. I think they are both good and risky.

good discussion!

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Only breed high end so the average joe doesn't throw down $2000 for a snake.:)

Mine are pets first.


Breeding only allows for the procurement of other animals.:D

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Originally Posted by tmlowe5704

Only breed high end so the average joe doesn't throw down $2000 for a snake.:)

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you'd be surprised!
Many people can afford that kind of purchase without the experience to back it up. I almost spent that kind of money on my first snake, and I am strictly a pet keeper not a breeder.

As for fish, I sold quite a few that were hundreds of dollars each! What I found was that the people who wanted the expensive ones were often the ones with the least good intentions! Those guys would ususally be seeing dollar signs and the chance to make a quick buck. I found that the mid range tended to bring in the serious hobbyists who wanted something to love and care for - those were the best customers in my mind :)

My interest in reptiles is first and foremost as pets. I don't really have any desire to breed - mostly because I don't really want two of the same species of snake. When getting another snake, I wanna get a new species I don't have yet. =)

Having said that, the only snake I think it might be cool to breed maybe several years down the road would be my boa...but then again, would need a boy snake and I dunno if I want two of one type. Just not a driving force for me.

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Originally Posted by JLC

While I don't really agree with most of your reasoning, this particular point begs a question: What about green iguanas and burmese pythons and other reptiles that are filling reptile-rescues because they are easy to get and hard to keep?

While I think there is a place for captive breeding of many reptiles...I think such things should be done by people with the passion and the temperment to properly see such a commitment through to the end with the best possible care for all the animals involved....not just anyone who happens to have a pair of something.

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Of course breeding should be done by responsible keepers...I was considering my audience to be responsible since I think that the majority of people here are great a keeping their animals...in fact I can't think of one offhand that is not ;)

What I was saying that if the demand for offspring is there...why not breed?

The issue with iguanas and burms is not that they are being produced.....it is that the producers have NO REGARD in terms of who they sell to. Again, a responsible keeper knows when they should and shouldn't breed, etc..... ;)

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Originally Posted by SPJ

Mine are pets first.


Breeding only allows for the procurement of other animals.:D

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x's 2 here

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Originally Posted by fishmommy

you'd be surprised!
Many people can afford that kind of purchase without the experience to back it up. I almost spent that kind of money on my first snake, and I am strictly a pet keeper not a breeder.

As for fish, I sold quite a few that were hundreds of dollars each! What I found was that the people who wanted the expensive ones were often the ones with the least good intentions! Those guys would ususally be seeing dollar signs and the chance to make a quick buck. I found that the mid range tended to bring in the serious hobbyists who wanted something to love and care for - those were the best customers in my mind :)

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i have bred cichlids and sold them. i always took the time to educate my buyers... assisting them to get the right set ups, to do their water changes etc. you can't control what other people do with their pets... but you can control how you sell them ;)

i plan to breed. that's why we've set about purchasing some morphs to get things started in a few years. my hubby is ready to retire... again... and it'll be a good hobby for him to pursue. fortunately for us, because we keep so many different types of pets we know a lot of 'pet' people as well as the local breeders around here. at this time, there isn't anyone producing morphs of balls... so we hope to fill that need.

as for whether or not an animal should be bred just simply for the 'experience'. IF there are quality homes available for the babies, i'm all for it... if however, there isn't... i'm completely against it. adding to the overwhelmed rescue centres is not something i wish to do. :cool:

No, I don't plan to ever breed Dax. We only have 2 snakes in total, Dax the BP and Toby our little cornsnake. Toby has a deformed spine, so, of course I wouldn't breed him. Dax is perfect in every way, but he is a normal, and split to nothing (or at the least, nothing we could prove)

If someone that I trusted and knew very well came to me begging to breed my baby to their female, I might. But as far as planning it or making it happen on my own, no.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

. I just like to ask...If you have a pair of reptiles, what reason is there not to breed??

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I can think of many reasons why not to breed. Culling an animal or animals with birth some major birth defect from the breeding stock is one reason.

If you owned one of the larger species of pythons or boas, those capable of clutch sizes of 60+ offspring, I think there's a good argument to be made that maybe you shouldnt breed them.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

Of course breeding should be done by responsible keepers...I was considering my audience to be responsible since I think that the majority of people here are great a keeping their animals...in fact I can't think of one offhand that is not ;)

What I was saying that if the demand for offspring is there...why not breed?

The issue with iguanas and burms is not that they are being produced.....it is that the producers have NO REGARD in terms of who they sell to. Again, a responsible keeper knows when they should and shouldn't breed, etc..... ;)

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I question how easy it is to sell 95 Retics or 70 Green Anacondas to responsible, experienced keepers of animals. You could always keep them but again, how many people have the necessary logistics and facilities for animals of this size and weight?

To me.....For many of the larger species of pythons and boas, large scale demand coupled with responsible ownership is simply not there! And supplying the demand to those who will not be responsible will only continue the drive towards regulations of large species seen in states like Florida, where Burmeses have become a major threat to native wild-life.

So to me there are often many good reasons not to breed animals in captivity. The ecology of an area, the market for that species, the genetics of an organism, the size and fecundity of the species, the logistics of housing....these all need to be taken into consideration when choosing to breed or not to breed even a pair of animals.

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

as for whether or not an animal should be bred just simply for the 'experience'. IF there are quality homes available for the babies, i'm all for it... if however, there isn't... i'm completely against it. adding to the overwhelmed rescue centres is not something i wish to do. :cool:

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Exactly!

Me, I am a collect of all things beautiful and rare. Ball pythons being no exception.
Can't say that they will ever be more than pets that I love and adore.
I will be one of those crazy people who by the time I am done will have spent thousands on ball pythons just to have as pets and admire their beauty.
I still need to add to my collection a Pied, Albino, Spider, Stripe and God only knows what else. :)

I shall leave the breeding for the breeders.

I might eventually get a female and breed Al to her, but at the time being he's just a pet. :)

i will sell but i mostly want to breed for personal upgraded snakes tho. i didnt want to have to drop over 1000 for a snake so i just decided to find a deal on a pair of het albinos. which i did :D hopefully they produce for me next season! i will keep one and prob sell the rest of the snakes

i'm not OPPOSED to breeding my pets but im wouldn't be in it for business (i wouldn't object to selling the babies though (money's money)

I thought they were :carrot:

heh....we got this thread to 3 pages before that joke showed up :P

I have a noraml color female and a albion color male that are my babies and are just my pets. I would not even consider breeding them because if you do not know what you are doing alot of things could go wrong and you could loss one of your snakes are both so make sure you know what you are doing and do alot of research before you get into breed them because they are to good of pets to loss but that is just my prefenerce. Good luck on breeding if you do get into breeding.

:D Angel3wolf

Chester is strictly a good snakie friend, and maybe I'll be able to get him a REAL girlfriend, so he wont enjoy being in my shirt too much ;) Im kidding, he is a great snake, and if I get him a female, he'll still be a great snake, and I'll still love him and think the same of him.

I would like to but I think that I wouldn't want to sell them...babies are too cute. :snake:

Yes I am for breeding.

Before my first clutch came just last year, I would have said that I plan on breeding because it would be cool and maybe I could make a few bucks.

Today, after my first babies hatched and they have either passed (heating incident) or been "sold" (more like adopted out), I would say that I plan on breeding because if you love the animals, it's an experience like no other to watch babies pip and hatch. To take care of them like they're your own children, watch them go through their first shed, celebrate on their first successful feeding. And then weighing them, watch them grow and their colors change, keeping records on each of them. If you love these animals, and you are willing to care for the young for as long as you need to, you will enjoy the experience of breeding them.

well right now mine's just a pet since im not ready for breeding, but once he matures and im ready, i'll do some breeding with different morphs.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

I would say that I plan on breeding because if you love the animals, it's an experience like no other to watch babies pip and hatch. To take care of them like they're your own children, watch them go through their first shed, celebrate on their first successful feeding. And then weighing them, watch them grow and their colors change, keeping records on each of them. If you love these animals, and you are willing to care for the young for as long as you need to, you will enjoy the experience of breeding them.

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ditto!!

I plan on breeding to produce my own designer morphs, and i'll definitely be trading and selling some on the way.

Right now I am happy to just have my ball as a pet. Since I am new to the world of herps, it will be a while before I am confident enough to consider breeding them, but it is a possibility.

I'm somewhat planning to. But I may only try one clutch. They are pets first and I have trouble trusting just anyone with an animal in my care. It will be hard to let any go.

First and foremost mine is a pet. While I`m just as passionate about herps especially BPs as anyone, I`m not planning on breeding mine until I get my hands on a morph. My aim is to get a pastel or a pair and breed them to get supers and go on from there.

I originally acquired mine as pets. But, a buddy of mine who bred convinced me to end celebacy(sp?) with them. As my colection grew, so did my interest in breeding to help pay for my hobbly. Now, I want some morphs, and they ain't cheap. the extra income i could earn from selling morph babies in the future will definately be a much needed help. However, my goal is to keep my collection of BPs small, to a limit of 25 so that I can give each one 1 on 1 attention and handling.

my balls were made for breeding for sure! i would love to have kids :D

after doing research for the past few months my rack finally came in yesterday, and the 3 balls i bought will be arriving tues morning. i cant wait. ive never owned a snake, and was just planning on getting 1 as a pet, but have since decided to try my hand at breeding them. id love to make some extra cash, but really my main goal is to eventually breed the ones the I really want like the bumble bee and killer bee, spinners....

i plan on picking up 4 more in the coming months, and will try to breed my normal female to either my pastel or spider next year. :snake:

i keep as pets but i want to breed one day not sure if ill sell the babys or keep guess ill figure that out when the time comes

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Originally Posted by andwhy6

my balls were made for breeding for sure! i would love to have kids :D

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QFT

I think one day that i would like to breed ball pythons! I have one normal female now, just a baby, but when im done with college and have my own place i think i would like to breed her then.

Honestly, I would keep retics and not breed them. But where I live now theres a length limit on all reptiles, so I decided to go with balls. And now that i'm starting to collect balls I plan on breeding them. They're easier to keep (space wise) and have smaller clutches so I can keep the babies and so on. I don't have to worry about having 20+,30+ or even 40+ babies to take care or try to sell. And if I don't or can't sell them imagine the food bill the caging cost. I believe that balls are better in my situation.

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Originally Posted by erobinson

Honestly, I would keep retics and not breed them. But where I live now theres a length limit on all reptiles, so I decided to go with balls. And now that i'm starting to collect balls I plan on breeding them. They're easier to keep (space wise) and have smaller clutches so I can keep the babies and so on. I don't have to worry about having 20+,30+ or even 40+ babies to take care or try to sell. And if I don't or can't sell them imagine the food bill the caging cost. I believe that balls are better in my situation.

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Very true. I wouldn't ever breed any animal that would produce more babies than I would be willing to keep if there was a case where I couldn't sell the offspring. My Leo's seem to be ready to breed this season, so I'm hoping for my first few clutches with them, and then my BP's should be ready by fall of '08. My 7mo. male pastel is roughly 300g now (was at 294 two weeks ago), and my female just hit the 600g mark at 1 yr of age, so things are lookin' good so far ^^. I personally can't wait to produce these babies, and I've already got several people wanting some of my BP's offspring.

right now, mine are just pets. maybe sometime in the future! i luv baby ball pix and it always makes me want to go out and get a female! haha!

I have only one male. I got him as a pet but I kind of have this quircky idea for a breeding project. So, I would have to get a female, of course. But, if you are breeding for certain traits, I imagine you would go through a process of selection and re-breeding. That means that each time you would have a certain number of snakes that you don't want to breed again. I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to sell them though.

Mine are pets first; breeders second. I keep them for the joy of having them. If none of them would ever breed again, I would still be fulfilled owning them. Breeding is a fun bonus that I am dabbling in now (with them, not myself..)