Blister Disease

Hello all,

I've been helping out a friend with his BP who got an infection. The blisters were lanced and cleansed with H2O2 3% and now polysporin is applied daily. The snake isn't allowed to soak, but is offered water 2-3 times daily. The redness had gone down but is back a little bit in these pics:
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2.../P3150139u.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2.../P3150138u.jpg

Anyone with any experience with this disease? I've been fortunate not to have even heard of it until this, is this a pretty normal progression on the road to recovery? You can see old scales falling away, and a lot of dead tissue being sloughed, but it seems to be, particularly from where it was that the infection isn't as bad as it was.

I've noticed the crest of the back has lightened significantly:
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2.../P3150130u.jpg

Is this an indication of the infection? Is it a bad sign?

Thanks for your comments.

It looks like he was burned!! I hope he gets to feeling better! What is his temps? He looks alot like an axanthic.

that looks like a thurmal burn. OW! wow. I have bever seen belly rot that advanced. My snake is being treated for some small sores on his belly. (I was really sick and in hospital, the cage didnt get cleaned) but it looks nothing like that.

have you been to the vet yet?

No that is not an axanthic, and no I have not been to a vet, nor has the owner of this snake. Unfortunately we're both in an area where vet 'expertise' doesn't count for much.

And no it was not a thermal burn, it was either a sensitivity reaction to newspaper or from contact with fecal matter. It started as two patches of blistered cells, and now the lower 3/4 of the body look like that. Now that the swelling and redness has gone away.

His temps are 73 on the cool side and 89 on the warm. As I mentioned he is being kept dry during recovery.

This is what neglect looks like (different snake):
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r...iles/belly.jpg
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r...bellyclose.jpg

well I don't know what to say.

Pretty horrific I know... pretty terrible situation on that last one. Hopefully these pics and any information people can share will help some snakes out there.

the temps are TOO LOW!! Raise them!! Raise them! And i would get him to a herp vet ASAP!! Good luck.

The temps are being worked on, going to see a good herp vet would include two rounds of air cargo shipping off island and back... it isn't going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Dread

The temps are being worked on, going to see a good herp vet would include two rounds of air cargo shipping off island and back... it isn't going to happen.

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If getting to a vet is physically impossible...I wonder if you could find one that would be willing to work with you over the phone? (You could e-mail him pics, maybe?) It really seems like something that needs a vet's attention and probably some antibiotic treatment.

Thanks for the advice Judy... I have tried contacting numerous vets from Canada and the US and as yet (weeks) not heard anything back. Certainly if his condition stops improving or worsens a redoubled effort is called for.

The polysporin ointment has several antibiotic ingredients, and have greatly improved his appearance. My question regarding his bleaching colour was hinting at the possibility of a systemic infection... and still waiting to hear from anyone with experience on that. Otherwise, a topical ointment like polysporin and improved husbandry should be the cure.

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Originally Posted by Dread

The temps are being worked on, going to see a good herp vet would include two rounds of air cargo shipping off island and back... it isn't going to happen.

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Then I hope you can get that snake taken care of. That doesn't look good at all. You needed to check if you can find a vet that does snakes before you EVER buy a snake.

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Originally Posted by stangs13

Then I hope you can get that snake taken care of. That doesn't look good at all. You needed to check if you can find a vet that does snakes before you EVER buy a snake.

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It's not his snake, hon--he's helping someone else out with their snake. :)

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Originally Posted by stangs13

You needed to check if you can find a vet that does snakes before you EVER buy a snake.

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I wouldn't want any vet anywhere "doing" my snakes, but it would certainly be an ideal situation to have an experienced herp vet available. And your little scolding would have great effect in a perfect world, but think, how many herp vets were available in 1945 when Roger Conant brought that ball python to the Philadelphia Zoo? There are now volumes of literature on reptile husbandry, hundreds of reptile web forums with thousands of users. If the only advice one can get from a forum as high-quality as BP.net is "go see a vet" for an infection, then we should all re-examine our reasons for taking part. How about throwing a good idea out there on the following problem: How do you attract a veterinarian experienced in dealing with reptiles to a city of 200,000 that doesn't have a reptile community because everyone has been waiting to get their pet reptile until such a vet arrives in a country where it is 10X easier to get into medical school than it is to become a vet? Please get back to me on that one.

Not to say that BP.net isn't a great resource with hundreds of highly-educated and/or experienced keepers. That is in fact the reason I posted here. Thankfully other forums have had users with more experience and sage advice, and an effective treatment program has been started that is drastically improving this snake's condition. If nothing more can be gained from this thread on my end, at least other users can read and learn from what has been put forward here.

Hey dread,


what substrate does your friend have him on? it looks to be drying out, are there any blisters on his/her back?? also has she shed since this whole ordeal started?

~mike

think I'm gonna be sick...... :puke2:

Dread,

I sent you a PM.

Rick

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Originally Posted by Dread

I wouldn't want any vet anywhere "doing" my snakes, but it would certainly be an ideal situation to have an experienced herp vet available. And your little scolding would have great effect in a perfect world, but think, how many herp vets were available in 1945 when Roger Conant brought that ball python to the Philadelphia Zoo? There are now volumes of literature on reptile husbandry, hundreds of reptile web forums with thousands of users. If the only advice one can get from a forum as high-quality as BP.net is "go see a vet" for an infection, then we should all re-examine our reasons for taking part. How about throwing a good idea out there on the following problem: How do you attract a veterinarian experienced in dealing with reptiles to a city of 200,000 that doesn't have a reptile community because everyone has been waiting to get their pet reptile until such a vet arrives in a country where it is 10X easier to get into medical school than it is to become a vet? Please get back to me on that one.

Not to say that BP.net isn't a great resource with hundreds of highly-educated and/or experienced keepers. That is in fact the reason I posted here. Thankfully other forums have had users with more experience and sage advice, and an effective treatment program has been started that is drastically improving this snake's condition. If nothing more can be gained from this thread on my end, at least other users can read and learn from what has been put forward here.

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I didn't scold you! You took that so so so wrong. Just chill, I tried to help, and you wont except it. That is a shame, because I don't want to see a snake die. And vets don't "do" your snakes...they heal them.

What more information do you want? We don't have certified herp vet on BP.net. I am sorry about that.

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Originally Posted by AzureN1ght

It's not his snake, hon--he's helping someone else out with their snake. :)

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I know. But it is just a little info in general.:rockon:

the first BP was brought to a zoo in 1954?

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Originally Posted by stangs13

Then I hope you can get that snake taken care of. That doesn't look good at all. You needed to check if you can find a vet that does snakes before you EVER buy a snake.

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I don't think it's too unreasonable that he thought you were being kinda snippy with him, even if you didn't mean to be. It's the wording. As an English major, I see it all the time.

Using the pronoun "you" to make a statement about people in general can be misinterpreted. One could recognize that the "you" pronoun was meant as a general reference to people, or one could interpret it properly and interpret the "you" as meaning the person (or people) that you are directly talking to. It seems that Dread took your "you" to mean him personally (that's how I read it, also).

If you had said: "People should try and find a vet that does snakes before they EVER buy a snake.", it would have at least been in the context that you meant.

Although, even if you hadn't been using confusing pronouns, the comment seemed a little off-base. Seeing as how Dread is helping someone else out with his snake problems, and he has already stated that it's not really possible to see a vet, he didn't really need to be told again that he should be seeing one.

I know you were trying to help, but Dread's reaction to your post wasn't entirely off-base, J.

and I thought we were here to talk about snakes, check it out, im in an english class atm. :8:

I just lost my male bp reggie to a burn that looked just like that. I took him to a vet who advertised she was a reptile vet and for two months she had me treat him for everything from parasites to both gram possitive and gram negative inffections. I live in a small town and that was my only choice. Finally after 8 weeks of oral yes oral antibiotics she sent me to a specialist in Las Vegas (3 hours away). I took reggie to them,and they right away recognised a burn. He spent a week in the hospital. When I went to pick him up he looked very good but when I got him home he went down hill very fast and I could not get him back to vegas in time and he died Feb 27. I basically cooked him on the advice of a ignorant and arrogant vet. Im just telling you my story if it may help him avoid the same fate as reggie. Im pulling for the little guy. good luck. RIP REGGIE!

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Originally Posted by sw204me

and I thought we were here to talk about snakes, check it out, im in an english class atm. :8:

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Hey, I'm an English Lit major...being anal about the language is what I do. ;) If all works out as I'd like it to, I'll be editing for a publishing company as a career. If I'm unsuccessful in doing that, I'll be pursuing a PhD through grad school so I can be a professor at a University :)

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Originally Posted by AzureN1ght

Hey, I'm an English Lit major...being anal about the language is what I do. ;) If all works out as I'd like it to, I'll be editing for a publishing company as a career. If I'm unsuccessful in doing that, I'll be pursuing a PhD through grad school so I can be a professor at a University :)

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:rockon:

Snoopy's was systemic pseudomonas infection, but she didn't get the hightlighting/fading on her back, just pockets of liquid in the scales, and what at first appeared to be a burn/belly rot, but after the vet drew and cultured the fluid, we found out it wasn't.

She did start shedding a bit. Be careful. The neosporin ointment, if it gets on the rest of his body will cause the other scales to flake of aaaaaaaaaall over the place, and that could generate more issues.

Keep working on getting the temps up. Snoopy didn't want to eat b/c of her belly, so keep an eye on the condition/weight. You may have to encourage/help the snake to eat.......he probably won't want to coil around anything until it's healed.

The pics posted----how old are they??? Is the damage still fresh (or did I miss a timeline in a posting somewhere? :confused: ):oops:

Good luck!

try soaking him in a very weak betadine and water solution. make it look like weak iced iea. once a day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AzureN1ght

Hey, I'm an English Lit major...being anal about the language is what I do. ;) If all works out as I'd like it to, I'll be editing for a publishing company as a career. If I'm unsuccessful in doing that, I'll be pursuing a PhD through grad school so I can be a professor at a University :)

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Good Luck to ya! :carrot: (I was just joking with ya btw)

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Originally Posted by sweety314

The pics posted----how old are they??? Is the damage still fresh (or did I miss a timeline in a posting somewhere? :confused: ):oops:

Good luck!

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just remember the second set of pics is a different snake.

~mike

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Originally Posted by sweety314

Snoopy's was systemic pseudomonas infection, but she didn't get the hightlighting/fading on her back, just pockets of liquid in the scales, and what at first appeared to be a burn/belly rot, but after the vet drew and cultured the fluid, we found out it wasn't.

She did start shedding a bit. Be careful. The neosporin ointment, if it gets on the rest of his body will cause the other scales to flake of aaaaaaaaaall over the place, and that could generate more issues.

Keep working on getting the temps up. Snoopy didn't want to eat b/c of her belly, so keep an eye on the condition/weight. You may have to encourage/help the snake to eat.......he probably won't want to coil around anything until it's healed.

The pics posted----how old are they??? Is the damage still fresh (or did I miss a timeline in a posting somewhere? :confused: ):oops:

Good luck!

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Thanks for the advice everyone, this is more along the lines of what I was hoping to see. Yes, the belly does look a little burned (now), and I was concerned about it. I've suggested that the H202 might be preventing healing, so a weak Betadene solution is now going to be used.

I think the polysporin is causing scales to flake off the rest of the body... is that a problem? What can be done to avoid this? The snake has been doing his regular fast this winter... normally he'd start eating in a month or so, but this will have to be healed up first. He has gone through one shed since the infection... hoping for another one soon.

I'm not sure if the first BP brought to a zoo was 1945 (not 1954), but certainly the longest recorded lifespan of a BP was this particular snake.

And I was personally offended by any "scolding". I truly believe in a perfect world that we would all have an experienced herp vet accessible to us and our collections, and that anyone who is to get into the hobby puts away a full year's worth of possible vet bills in a savings accounts just in case. The reality is much different, and I tried to make it clear to anyone reading that in everything you do you must make decisions based on an imperfect world and then take responsibility for these decisions no matter the outcome.

Just some specifics on the poor situation of veterinary care in my area... I am a microbiologist and I have several herping friends with experience as well. I've known keepers to do fecal examinations and their own diagnoses, go to the vet requesting specific medication for their problems, and be turned away or consoled because there is "nothing we can do". The more experienced herpers who can contribute real world advice the less of a problem this will be now and in the future.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AzureN1ght

I don't think it's too unreasonable that he thought you were being kinda snippy with him, even if you didn't mean to be. It's the wording. As an English major, I see it all the time.

Using the pronoun "you" to make a statement about people in general can be misinterpreted. One could recognize that the "you" pronoun was meant as a general reference to people, or one could interpret it properly and interpret the "you" as meaning the person (or people) that you are directly talking to. It seems that Dread took your "you" to mean him personally (that's how I read it, also).

If you had said: "People should try and find a vet that does snakes before they EVER buy a snake.", it would have at least been in the context that you meant.

Although, even if you hadn't been using confusing pronouns, the comment seemed a little off-base. Seeing as how Dread is helping someone else out with his snake problems, and he has already stated that it's not really possible to see a vet, he didn't really need to be told again that he should be seeing one.

I know you were trying to help, but Dread's reaction to your post wasn't entirely off-base, J.

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Thank you Mrs. Kim! :bow: :rockon: Yes I think it was a simple misunderstanding, and I screwed up.

its easy on a forum to not be taken the way you ment it.


~mike

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

its easy on a forum to not be taken the way you ment it.


~mike

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Yes! There just arn't enough smilieys!

haha, there are alot though:taz: :rolleye2: :carrot: :rockon: :grabbed:


~mike

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Originally Posted by stangs13

Thank you Mrs. Kim! :bow: :rockon: Yes I think it was a simple misunderstanding, and I screwed up.

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:hug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stangs13

I didn't scold you! You took that so so so wrong. Just chill, I tried to help, and you wont except it. That is a shame, because I don't want to see a snake die. And vets don't "do" your snakes...they heal them.

What more information do you want? We don't have certified herp vet on BP.net. I am sorry about that.

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Justin, calm down man. You were doing so well for a while (or maybe that is when you weren't here). No need to jump in on EVERY thread. Plus, your frantic posting style gets people a little agitated sometimes. I know when I read it, I get a little shaky. :rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Justin, calm down man. You were doing so well for a while (or maybe that is when you weren't here). No need to jump in on EVERY thread. Plus, your frantic posting style gets people a little agitated sometimes. I know when I read it, I get a little shaky. :rolleye2:

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I am calm. I am shaky too...I have bien shakey for a few days...Maybe I need to go do something else....

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Originally Posted by Dread

This is what neglect looks like (different snake):
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r...iles/belly.jpg
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r...bellyclose.jpg

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Oh my God. Poor baby

was it ever discussed what causes this stuff? thats horrific.

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Originally Posted by sw204me

was it ever discussed what causes this stuff? thats horrific.

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I believe the last pictures were of a burn, but scale rot (dermatitis) is caused by a number of things... usually it will begin by some sort of trauma or environmental factor (such as a moist environment). Many different bacteria can then become involved which will lead to an infection and other skin related problems such as abscesses and dermal necrosis.

what are the early signs of scale rot?

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Originally Posted by sw204me

what are the early signs of scale rot?

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I believe it primarily affects the ventral scales and will start out as an orange discoloration around the edges of the scales.

FYI, I'm definitely not an expert and am only parroting what I've researched. Hopefully someone with first hand experience can chime in.

and thats caused by the tank and the bedding being to weet?

Thanks Lawrence... the second set of pictures are from a snake whose owner decided that for the winter it was fasting and hadn't checked in on it for months. It was wallowing in its own excrement for the entire time... and the thick scabs are from the resilient snake fighting the infection and/or from sloughing dead tissue. I'm pleased to say it was rescued by a very competent keeper and it is on the mend. I can post updates when I get them. Basically incorrect husbandry (mostly improper cleaning, or too moist environments) can make your snake susceptible to these infections.

From what I've seen around (thankfully never had any in my collection), scale rot, dermatitis, and blister disease are all slightly different from what you will observe initially. Scale rot can be as innocuous as a blackened edge of the ventral scales, but can progress to the state you see in the pictures above. Dermatitis is exactly that, an irritation of the skin that you will observe from an infection (redness, sores, etc). Blister disease starts with the skin swelling with a clear-yellow fluid around the ventral scales. They look like little baggies full of liquid. Since all of these are the result of an infection and invariably cell death, you will get necrotic tissue that needs to be sterilized and will eventually be sloughed. The first pics are of the stage where much of the dead infected tissue has been removed/lost and now irritated skin with no protective layer is exposed. At this point it is critical to keep the snake in a clean, dry environment or re-infection will occur and healing cannot progress.

i'm just curious if that second snake was put on any antibiotic or if topical treatment alone was successful?

That second snake has been given Baytril injections and a round of Fenbenzadole just in case. Amikacin was the preferred antibiotic to use, but it was not available.
Right now it also gets one soak a day in a solution of MelaFix a topical antibiotic also used to treat scale rot in fish. Once dried off from the soak its belly is coated with Polysporin triple (twice a day). Papertowel substrate is changed at least daily.

wow, that's pretty intense treatment. i'm glad the snake is pulling through though--that's pretty much the worse case of belly rot/infection i've ever seen.

does anyone think that it might not be a bad idea to give the current snake baytril injections to help fight any infection? (i don't know if it would be or not, i'm just presenting the question and trying to learn myself.)

Thanks for asking that specific question... I too would appreciate an experienced/educated answer to that. If I find out elsewhere I will post here as well.


From where those pictures of the second snake were originally posted, several users had commented they had seen worse... I can't imagine! This snake has a very dedicated rescuer... I am looking forward to positive updates.