Temp. Graidiante, why have it?

I know we are supposed to have a warm side and a cool side in the tank, but why is this? It is stated all over that BPs will sit on a hot rock or next to a lamp and get burned, and will sit there and take it, reguardless of his skin burning. So, with that said, why do we need a warm and cool side if they arent gonna move if they are uncomfortable? Last night when I put on my UTH the temp of the bedding spiked to 103 degrees b4 I unplugged it to let the temp get back down. All he did was stick his head out from his hide, eye the hide on the other side that is identical to what hes in now, just on the cool side, then went back into the hot hide. If 103 degrees is too hot for them, then why would he just sit there and take it when there is an identical hide over on the cool side?

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Originally Posted by sw204me

I know we are supposed to have a warm side and a cool side in the tank, but why is this?

BPs are cool blooded and they do a thing called thermoregulation. They need a warm spot in their enclosure so that they can properly digest their food.

It is stated all over that BPs will sit on a hot rock or next to a lamp and get burned, and will sit there and take it, reguardless of his skin burning. So, with that said, why do we need a warm and cool side if they arent gonna move if they are uncomfortable?

If the temperatures are correct in your enclosure, and you use a thermostat to make sure that they do not fluctuate out of the ideal range (90-93) your snake will not get burned. It is stated not to use heat rocks because they can get to extreme temperatures that will cause burns to your animal. The same is true for UTHs, which is why it is highly recommended to use them with a thermostat or a dimmer switch.

Last night when I put on my UTH the temp of the bedding spiked to 103 degrees b4 I unplugged it to let the temp get back down. All he did was stick his head out from his hide, eye the hide on the other side that is identical to what hes in now, just on the cool side, then went back into the hot hide. If 103 degrees is too hot for them, then why would he just sit there and take it when there is an identical hide over on the cool side?

Because your snake is probably trying to digest its food and needs a temp higher than your cool side temp to do so. I suggest going out and getting a dimmer switch as a temporary fix until you can get a decent thermostat. Fluctuating temperatures are stressful to your snake, and make it more suseptable to diseases. This is why everyone should do their research and get their enclosures set up properly before purchacing an animal. It is the snake that ends up being the one that suffers. Just my :2cent:
Good luck with your setup... We're all here to help.

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just doesnt make sense to me why an animal would stay where its being harmed. And I am picking up a controler to be able to get a solid 92-94 degrees and it be stable. Was just wondering if anyone's BP's move around the tank to be more comfortable?

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Originally Posted by sw204me

just doesnt make sense to me why an animal would stay where its being harmed.

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There need for heat over rides the body's natural instinct to avoid pain and the temp increase can happen slowly so they might not notice till it to late.

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... Was just wondering if anyone's BP's move around the tank to be more comfortable?

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I see it more in my racks than when I was using a tank first starting out.

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Originally Posted by sw204me

just doesnt make sense to me why an animal would stay where its being harmed. And I am picking up a controler to be able to get a solid 92-94 degrees and it be stable. Was just wondering if anyone's BP's move around the tank to be more comfortable?

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I observe all of my ball pythons either relaxing on the cool side or basking over their hot spot at different times during the day.

When you're keeping these animals that are dependant on external sources of heat to fuel their physiological functions it's important to give them choices ... They might choose not to use all of the choices you provide them with ... but better to offer them and have them not used than to not offer them when the snakes needs them.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I observe all of my ball pythons either relaxing on the cool side or basking over their hot spot at different times during the day.

-adam

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Mine never leaves his hide over on the warm side....ever.....but could also be cause the warm and cool side are different by only a few degrees, which I am getting fixed later tonight.


You guys always help, which is why I post on here, im so new to these things is scary, but I am trying to make it just right for him. its slowly coming together to where it needs to be for him. Just glad you all are willing to put up with my noobness :confused: , :P

And as always thanks for all the help.

Mine spends about the same amount in the cool and warm hides. After eating though it seems to always stay in the warm hide

hmmm, maybe hes sick? when hes awake, which is ONLY when I take him out of his tank he moves around alot and flicks his tongue which I read is a good thing to see, but if I leave him alone he never moves...should I be concerned?

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Originally Posted by sw204me

hmmm, maybe hes sick? when hes awake, which is ONLY when I take him out of his tank he moves around alot and flicks his tongue which I read is a good thing to see, but if I leave him alone he never moves...should I be concerned?

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nope, it means he is relaxed. If you watch him at night with an infrared light you will see him move around a lot.

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Originally Posted by tmlowe5704

nope, it means he is relaxed. If you watch him at night with an infrared light you will see him move around a lot.

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Thats what I mean, he doesnt even come out at night... :(

I have a few balls that DON'T EVER MOVE...or so it seems. and then I have one (a little guy) that is ALL OVER his tank. I think it just depends on the snake. every snake is different and not all will be so active.

I like to think of them burning themselves is kind of like us going out to tan at the beach. You don't realize that your BURNT until you get in and out of the sun...then it's too late. Your body just adapts to the temps as do theirs.
so you should always monitor their temps.

well...that's my take on it. lol. :D

Do they out grow their willingness to never ever move? or am I stuck with a snake that might as well be a pet rock?

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Originally Posted by sw204me

Do they out grow their willingness to never ever move? or am I stuck with a snake that might as well be a pet rock?

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How active did you expect it to be? Ball Pythons are not exactly the kind of pet you take outside and play fetch with...If you feel you're stuck with a "pet rock" maybe you should try to find someone to take him off your hands. I'm not trying to sound mean, but sounds like you want a pet that's a little more interactive...

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Originally Posted by sw204me

Thats what I mean, he doesnt even come out at night... :(

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they do but youre probably sleeping...

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Originally Posted by sho220

How active did you expect it to be? Ball Pythons are not exactly the kind of pet you take outside and play fetch with...If you feel you're stuck with a "pet rock" maybe you should try to find someone to take him off your hands. I'm not trying to sound mean, but sounds like you want a pet that's a little more interactive...

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not interactive, just one I dont have to poke to make sure its not dead....lol

..... :sigh2:

maybe poke was too strong a word, lightly nudge would be better, im not abusive towards the poor thing.

Also tests show that Bps have difficulty feeling extreme heat ith thier belly scales so they would notice a 103 spike thats how they typically get burned. However they do detect heat much better with thier scales on the back which is why you rrarely see back burns.

Like I said, I will be getting some control for the UTH, he may never come out and say hi, but there is no excuse far causing harm to a pet due to improper housing. (just trying to make it clear that although I dont see him as much as I would Like, I def do care about him)

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Originally Posted by ReptileFan

Also tests show that Bps have difficulty feeling extreme heat ith thier belly scales so they would notice a 103 spike thats how they typically get burned. However they do detect heat much better with thier scales on the back which is why you rrarely see back burns.

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Just curious, do you have a source for this information? I would like to read up on this if you can cite an article, book, study, etc...

Thanks!

JT

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Originally Posted by ReptileFan

Also tests show that Bps have difficulty feeling extreme heat ith thier belly scales so they would notice a 103 spike thats how they typically get burned. However they do detect heat much better with thier scales on the back which is why you rrarely see back burns.

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Considering that ball pythons are a terrestrial species...all my logic and reasoning would actually lead me to infer that the exact opposite is true. Why would an animal that doesn't bask out in the open and feels its way around tight burrows be more sensitive on the part of their body that contacts the ground the least?

Some of them do become more use to you and will come around but some are just shy and don't like to be bothered. I have 2 girls that just WILL NOT come out of their hides...but they are still cool and I hope that with a little handling and "trust" they will become a little more active. :yes:


Either way...they are the coolest ;)

:) Of course! The book ball pythons of the world by the barkers states this as well as several other books and articles. They tested this several times asked around ect. to gather this info the barker book is a great book for any ball python keeper and it will tell you a ton of info.

if they are in tight burrows their back scales would probaly touch just as much. They dont need feeling to detect the heat they have labial pits. This is simply what i have heard/read

I've just got a random question that may or may not have to do with what you asked. Are both of your hides identical? I've read that BPs will choose security (a preferred hide) over thermoregulation...if you've got two different hides, it could make him choose to hide on one side over the other.

BTW...how old is your snake?

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Originally Posted by AzureN1ght

I've just got a random question that may or may not have to do with what you asked. Are both of your hides identical? I've read that BPs will choose security (a preferred hide) over thermoregulation...if you've got two different hides, it could make him choose to hide on one side over the other.

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yup, they are 100% identical, they are the exacte same shape and size. and they actually face each other and are both located on the back wall of the tank. so if you look out of the hide you will be looking directely into the other one. I figured that made the most sense and would make him feel more secure then with the hides facing out to the room...I do plan to get some mroe plants to give him even more privacy to encourage him to come out of his little hide.

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

BTW...how old is your snake?

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Really wish I knew, we tried to measure him/her (still havent gotten it sex'd yet) and its right around 20-21 inches.

There no edit button on post? I called my buddy who owns the pet store that gave me the snake and he said its about 6 months old.

with my snakes i have noticed that the nervous ones would come out more when they feel more secure. usually i keep handling to a minimum with these snakes and keep them away from traffic heavy areas. i also add a background to three sides of the enclosure to help with security. after keeping this up for months they become less shy. it works for me. maybe try it out.

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Originally Posted by bigballs

with my snakes i have noticed that the nervous ones would come out more when they feel more secure. usually i keep handling to a minimum with these snakes and keep them away from traffic heavy areas. i also add a background to three sides of the enclosure to help with security. after keeping this up for months they become less shy. it works for me. maybe try it out.

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will grab a background while im out after work, i would of thought handling more would of helpped. thanks for the heads up!

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Originally Posted by sw204me

There no edit button on post? I called my buddy who owns the pet store that gave me the snake and he said its about 6 months old.

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You may edit your posts for up to 30 minutes, I believe, and then the edit feature is gone.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Considering that ball pythons are a terrestrial species...all my logic and reasoning would actually lead me to infer that the exact opposite is true. Why would an animal that doesn't bask out in the open and feels its way around tight burrows be more sensitive on the part of their body that contacts the ground the least?

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Pythons of the World Vol II: Ball Pythons by Barker & Barker, pp. 25-26:

As long as it is possible for the snake to move to a cooler area, we have never observed a ball python to allow itself to be burned on its dorsal surface from a radiant heat source that is too hot; however, over the years we have seen a number of ball pythons with severly burned ventral surfaces, caused by the snakes' voluntarily sitting too long on electrically warmed surfaces such as substrate heaters, under-cage-heating pads, or heated fake rocks. From this we deduce that ball pythons have less ability to detect and determine critical temperatures on their undersides than on their upper sides.

Ok, I just misted his tank and humidity shot up to 58% and just as it happen he poked his head out of his hide and started to look around, climbed on a log, sniffed around, then went back in his hide......anyone wanna translate what that means?

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Originally Posted by sw204me

Ok, I just misted his tank and humidity shot up to 58% and just as it happen he poked his head out of his hide and started to look around, climbed on a log, sniffed around, then went back in his hide......anyone wanna translate what that means?

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They have a brain the size of a sunflower seed probably, I doubt there is a rhyme and reason to everything that they do

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Originally Posted by Snikt228

They have a brain the size of a sunflower seed probably, I doubt there is a rhyme and reason to everything that they do

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damnit, my pet's brain is bigger them mine.....new I should of gone with a parakeet.

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Originally Posted by sw204me

Ok, I just misted his tank and humidity shot up to 58% and just as it happen he poked his head out of his hide and started to look around, climbed on a log, sniffed around, then went back in his hide......anyone wanna translate what that means?

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Translation - I would rather stay in my cozy hide than out in the open where I'm being over-stimulated by all these changes to my home.

Don't try to analyze his every move. It's been said before but I'll say it again - the more you leave him alone for the first few weeks the better. Get the cage parameters right and let him settle in.

I have a couple pairs of pythons and each snake will utilize his environment differently. Our female maculosa will spend all day on a branch halfway between thermal gradients. The male will simply move from one hide to the other.

Right now hes currently sitting in his water bowl, its 8:28am here, guess I was just being impatient with him. now if I could just figure out how to control my damn UTH we will be all set. Got a dimmer.....doesnt appear to be able to help though, still getting too hot.

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Originally Posted by sw204me

Right now hes currently sitting in his water bowl, its 8:28am here, guess I was just being impatient with him. now if I could just figure out how to control my damn UTH we will be all set. Got a dimmer.....doesnt appear to be able to help though, still getting too hot.

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Get a thermostat, not a dimmer http://www.reptilebasics.com

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Originally Posted by sw204me

damnit, my pet's brain is bigger them mine.....new I should of gone with a parakeet.

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rotfwl
nice one. :)

While I agree a thermostat I'd definately the better option I am a little confused why you say the dimmer doesn't help - the dimmer switches I have can turn the thing attatched down to the point of turning it off with a click.

if you turn it completely off and the temperatures are still too high then you need to control the other heat source better as well.



dr del

I honestly have no clue to what the hell is going on in my tank at this point. the UTH is off and my bedding is at 90 degrees on the warm side, last night with UTH off it was 88 degrees and a couple nights before it was 83 degrees. When I turn the UTH on and the dimmer all the way off the temps go all over the damn place and are WAY too high.

I am def pleased to announce, however, that he was in his water bowl this morning when I left for work, was hidding out in his hide on the warm side when I got home from work, then when I got home from the movies with all the lights off and just his heating like on, he was back in his water bowl. So he is def getting alot more comfortable with his home and is making use of what he has to get comfortable.

Temps right now are Warm side 90 degrees, cool side 81 degrees, humidity is at a :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:ty 25%......Humidity is the devil.

Thanx for getting that qoute rab backed me up :rockon:

Well, sorry to sound abrupt, but you should have had your temps and caging conditions Right-On before even buying a snake. Now the poor animal has to live in substandard conditions..
There is no worry in my house about any snake burning itself.. that's what thermostats/rheostats are for.. they get their thermal gradient and can thermoregulate as they please.

Well a picture's worth a thousand words so they say. This is Orlah, a mature female BP. This picture shows, but really cannot fully show, how bad the result of a dorsal burn is. She was like this when we found her in a pet store as an unwanted pet somebody dumped there. Our very experienced herp vet can only surmise that at some point in Orlah's past life she was housed with an exposed and very hot bulb, curled up against it and literally peeled the skin off her spine when she moved away from the bulb - a quite horrific and I'm sure painful thing to experience.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...lahMay2006.jpg

My very basic understanding is that snake's have such linear bodies and the way that their nerves transmit information, they can start to burn before the message gets sent fast enough to the brain to get the heck out of there (I said it was a basic understanding lol).

Once your snake has what it needs...a stable and correct environment...it will likely do what it needs to do as far as thermoregulating and exploring it's home. Changes, even good ones, cause stress in snakes so that's to be expected while you tweak this enclosure.

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Originally Posted by sw204me

Humidity is the devil.

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Actually, lights are the devil for keeping humidity up. ;)

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Originally Posted by sw204me

Temps right now are Warm side 90 degrees, cool side 81 degrees, humidity is at a :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:ty 25%......Humidity is the devil.

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You could try to get a bigger water bowl, that should increase the humidity. Also, it sounds like you should get a thermostat. Changing temps are very stressful to your snake.

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Originally Posted by casperca

You could try to get a bigger water bowl, that should increase the humidity. Also, it sounds like you should get a thermostat. Changing temps are very stressful to your snake.

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...e/000_0011.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...e/000_0014.jpg

Dont even think it would be possible to fit a bigger water bowl even if i wanted to..

True... I don't know what to tell you other than to mist it down or get a humidifier for the room that your snake is in..

One question though, where are your hides? :confused:

Hi sw204me,


How deep is your substrate? it may be it is so deep it is effectively insulating the uth. Also remember the substrate itself will hold temperature for a small amount of time so you do need to allow the temps to settle before being confident that thery are correct.

What other heating sources do you have in your tank? You really need to get this nailed as it certainly can't be doing your snake any good. :(

As to the humidity id try getting a smaller waterbowl ( as an extra - you can keep the inland sea you already have. :P ) and place it at the warm end to see if that can help.


dr del

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Originally Posted by casperca

True... I don't know what to tell you other than to mist it down or get a humidifier for the room that your snake is in..

One question though, where are your hides? :confused:

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they were taken out for that picture as it was a few sec after he was done eating, I changed out his water and he went right for the fresh water and sat in it, and this was my first time seeing him do that so i snapped some pics.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...e/000_0015.jpg

In the pic you can see the two hides in the back corners, one on the warm side one on the cool side, they face each other.


As for how deep it is, prolly about half an inch. Right now im using a CHE and a UTH. however, I decided to try something out and turned the red heating bulb off and have ONLY the UTH and the bedding is exactely 96.0 degrees. the cool side is 81.4 degrees. With just the Bulb on it was 90 degrees.

As for getting a smaller bowl and putting it on the warm side, I was told in another post to move the water AWAY from the CHE to raise the humidity.