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  • 03-03-2007, 12:49 PM
    daniel1983
    Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    I was wondering what everyones' opinions on the current/future captive ball python production and its' effects on importation from the wild.
  • 03-03-2007, 12:52 PM
    tmlowe5704
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by daniel1983
    I was wondering what everyones' opinions on the current/future captive ball python production and its' effects on importation from the wild.

    I feel that people will still continue to import just as many as there are now. When you have people selling baby females for $10 a piece and wild caught adult females for $30 people will continue to buy them.
  • 03-03-2007, 12:58 PM
    daniel1983
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tmlowe5704
    I feel that people will still continue to import just as many as there are now. When you have people selling baby females for $10 a piece and wild caught adult females for $30 people will continue to buy them.

    Using corn snakes as an example. Do you still see wild corn snakes being sold commonly?? Will ball pythons reach the point that wild caught/captive hatched animals are 'rare'?

    Will the declining price of ball python morphs have any effect on the importation? For example, once pastels hit the $100 mark....why would someone buy a captive hatched normal at a pet store for $80 instead of buying a captive bred $100 pastel? I have seen pastels for sale in pet stores already....so it is quite a possibility down the road a little.
  • 03-03-2007, 01:21 PM
    jotay
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by daniel1983
    Using corn snakes as an example. Do you still see wild corn snakes being sold commonly?? Will ball pythons reach the point that wild caught/captive hatched animals are 'rare'?

    Will the declining price of ball python morphs have any effect on the importation? For example, once pastels hit the $100 mark....why would someone buy a captive hatched normal at a pet store for $80 instead of buying a captive bred $100 pastel? I have seen pastels for sale in pet stores already....so it is quite a possibility down the road a little.


    I have to agree with you on that. I choose the down the rode vote. As prices decline on morphs why would there even be a market to import for sale.
    Now there is because of the cost factor. When that levels out or gets close then the demand won't be so high so there goes the supply. It is the whole supply/demand thing.
  • 03-03-2007, 01:49 PM
    coldbloodaddict
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jotay
    I have to agree with you on that. I choose the down the rode vote. As prices decline on morphs why would there even be a market to import for sale.
    Now there is because of the cost factor. When that levels out or gets close then the demand won't be so high so there goes the supply. It is the whole supply/demand thing.

    Importers buy the Normal Imports to have the opportunity to buy the possible New Morph Imports...They also have to bring in more than just Balls...
  • 03-03-2007, 02:07 PM
    tmlowe5704
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    With my comment, I was stating about ball pythons only because it is in the general BP section. I do not know about corn snakes so I can't say for those.
  • 03-03-2007, 03:29 PM
    jotay
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict
    Importers buy the Normal Imports to have the opportunity to buy the possible New Morph Imports...They also have to bring in more than just Balls...

    Again it is supply and demand. If no one is buying the normals because there is not a market so much anymore because prices of morphs are more affordable then do you really think the importers wouldn't sell that import morph because no one is buying normals?
    In other words if there isn't a market of import normals then they won't sell them anymore and just move on to selling the morph import .
    Kinda like w/ the invention of the car I am sure horse sales declined.

    I am only speaking on bp's not any other import
  • 03-03-2007, 03:31 PM
    Mendel's Balls
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    I voted, "Captive breeding will effect importation down the road, but not anytime soon."

    However, I think the fourth choice, "Captive breeding will increase ball python popularity; therefore increasing importation" has already happened to a large extent. The drive to find more base morphs and the possibility of creating designer morphs in captivity certainly have brought this animal from the back burner of the herp hobby to the forefront.

    At some point, however, there wont be many more base morphs to discover in the wild and there will be a lot of normals and possible hets that breeders small,medium, and large will need to sell off.
  • 03-03-2007, 04:38 PM
    Rapture
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    I voted for the last choice... I think more will continue to come in as everyone is looking for odd balls.
  • 03-03-2007, 06:08 PM
    daniel1983
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tmlowe5704
    With my comment, I was stating about ball pythons only because it is in the general BP section. I do not know about corn snakes so I can't say for those.

    This is about ball pythons only...maybe I was not clear in my phrasing. I was stating that you no longer see wild caught corn snakes readily available in the pet industry....but you can walk into just about any pet store and see some for sale. That means that their captive numbers outwiegh those being taken from the wild. I was asking if you believe ball pythons will reach that level or will they continue to be heavily imported from the wild.
  • 03-03-2007, 06:13 PM
    daniel1983
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict
    Importers buy the Normal Imports to have the opportunity to buy the possible New Morph Imports...They also have to bring in more than just Balls...

    Correct. But with the decline in current morph prices and the wide availability of 'types' of morphs, importation can only last so long in my opinion.

    If it costs an importer $50,000 to bring in a new morph, but he has trouble selling the other animals in the 'package' due to increased captive production and availability....do you still think that importer will continue to import mass quantities of animals?
  • 03-03-2007, 11:12 PM
    muddoc
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    I guess I voted kind of wrong. I sadi that captive breeding will have no effect on importation. I guess it will have an effcet on importation, but I think it will have little effect on exportation. What I think most people fail to realize is how large the market is fro Ball Pythons, and how much money is generated by the poor countries on the Ivory Coast that export balls. There are laws in place that regulate how many ball pythons have to be released back into the wild. However, if the US is not importing the remainder, then the Asians will for the meat and the skins. It's kind of like the oil trade in the US. The US doesn't really want to stop producing oil or using oil because it would hurt the economy too much. Just my opinion, and sorry for the rambling.
  • 03-04-2007, 03:46 AM
    sweety314
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    I don't understand all of it, but I do agree with and appreciate Kevin M's premise about the ball lords and importation.


    I think the more popular balls become, the greater the increase in importation and the exponentially increased danger to the numbers (i.e. faster future extinction/endangerment) of the wild population. It's even more disheartening to read and learn more about wild caught females (or any SNAKE) being used for food or killed in fear, when so many high numbers are continually taken out of the population and exported. :(


    R.
  • 03-04-2007, 12:37 PM
    Emilio
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    I also voted for cbb having no effect on the importation of ball pythons. Its just cheaper and their much more available than cbb. There is one more thing I see though,with all the co-doms being breed now there is plenty of normal cbb's being produced, but what happens when breeders stop mass producing spiders, pastels, and mojaves? I don't think there are many breeders just producing normals.:2cent:
  • 03-04-2007, 12:58 PM
    tmlowe5704
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Emilio
    I also voted for cbb having no effect on the importation of ball pythons. Its just cheaper and their much more available than cbb. There is one more thing I see though,with all the co-doms being breed now there is plenty of normal cbb's being produced, but what happens when breeders stop mass producing spiders, pastels, and mojaves? I don't think there are many breeders just producing normals.:2cent:

    Not many big breeders but there are tons of small hobbyist breeders breeding normal just for fun and have no interest in getting into morphs. Also, just because they stop producing lots of those morphs you need to remember that until they stop using hets and breed only the supers and morph recessive forms of morphs, normals still pop out.
  • 03-04-2007, 03:56 PM
    KittyJ
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by daniel1983
    I was wondering what everyones' opinions on the current/future captive ball python production and its' effects on importation from the wild.


    I dont agree with buying or importing captive bred Bps. If I would've known Chester was WC I wouldnt of never boughten him. Sad to say but truth. We cant hardly excpet if we suddenly say " Oh well Bps ar elow in numbers lets stop importing them" It takes time for people to stop and change what they are doing. We have enough blood of Bps in captivity. And besides more than half the Bps brought in from the wild die... when they could be living or trying to make a living in the wild..I am 110% against WC Bps and importing them from the wild into captivity.
  • 03-04-2007, 04:18 PM
    tmlowe5704
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KittyJ
    And besides more than half the Bps brought in from the wild die... when they could be living or trying to make a living in the wild..I am 110% against WC Bps and importing them from the wild into captivity.

    Where are you getting this info from?
  • 03-04-2007, 04:52 PM
    kavmon
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    i don't think as captive breeders we are no where close to be able to produce the amount that is being currently imported.


    if balls gain in popularity and really go mainstream, watch out! we need more people into balls and the morphs to keep the gears rolling so to speak.

    most people i know and herpers i know have no idea about all the ball morphs! i think there is a flavor for everyone.

    i look forward to the day when you can find ball morphs in the stores!


    vaughn
  • 03-04-2007, 05:25 PM
    rabernet
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KittyJ
    I dont agree with buying or importing captive bred Bps. If I would've known Chester was WC I wouldnt of never boughten him. Sad to say but truth. We cant hardly excpet if we suddenly say " Oh well Bps ar elow in numbers lets stop importing them" It takes time for people to stop and change what they are doing. We have enough blood of Bps in captivity. And besides more than half the Bps brought in from the wild die... when they could be living or trying to make a living in the wild..I am 110% against WC Bps and importing them from the wild into captivity.

    I love my CH girls, every last one of them, and I will continue to add more CH babies that have unique looks that I like to my collection. There's a difference in WC and CH - both are imports. There are great distributors out there to support in the purchase of quality CH babies, such as Will Bird, Ben Siegel, Neil Golli, Michael Cole to name just a few.
  • 03-04-2007, 07:24 PM
    Sadie
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    I am against importation as well. However...I can't judge those of you who buy CH (which is still removing snakes from the wild population) because I'm guilty of buying CB morphs which also supports the importation of "new blood" from Africa. Most major breeders import, whether to find the 'next big thing' or diversify bloodlines, and buying from them supports this practice. When I realized how easy it was to find a CB ball, I assumed that importation was rare. I was wrong. Pet stores still import, and those are wild-type snakes. So I don't see importation slowing down anytime soon. I can only hope importing WC is replaced by CH as these snakes seem to have better odds of living and thriving.
  • 03-04-2007, 11:18 PM
    Adam_Wysocki
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KittyJ
    I dont agree with buying or importing captive bred Bps. If I would've known Chester was WC I wouldnt of never boughten him. Sad to say but truth. We cant hardly excpet if we suddenly say " Oh well Bps ar elow in numbers lets stop importing them" It takes time for people to stop and change what they are doing. We have enough blood of Bps in captivity. And besides more than half the Bps brought in from the wild die... when they could be living or trying to make a living in the wild..I am 110% against WC Bps and importing them from the wild into captivity.

    You've gotten a hold of some incorrect information. An extremely small percentage of the ball pythons that are imported into the United States die during the trip. There are strict regulations developed by an organization called IATA that regulates the way these animals are packaged and shipped to maximize their saftey and protect their lives and health.

    Also, we do not have anywhere near "enough" "blood" in captivity to meet the demand for ball pythons in this country ... it's estimated that captive bred animals at this point don't even cover 15% of the annual demand for these animals.

    The reality is that there is an explosion in the ball python population in West Africa ... they are actually considered nuisance animals over there ... if they aren't imported into the United States pet trade, they'll be exported from West Africa to Asia as a meat product, and if not exported to Asia, they would be burned out of their burrows and killed. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with a well started, healthy, CH animal from a breeder/dealer that stands behind what they sell.

    Hope this helps.

    -adam
  • 03-05-2007, 08:07 AM
    rabernet
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
    You've gotten a hold of some incorrect information. An extremely small percentage of the ball pythons that are imported into the United States die during the trip. There are strict regulations developed by an organization called IATA that regulates the way these animals are packaged and shipped to maximize their saftey and protect their lives and health.

    Also, we do not have anywhere near "enough" "blood" in captivity to meet the demand for ball pythons in this country ... it's estimated that captive bred animals at this point don't even cover 15% of the annual demand for these animals.

    The reality is that there is an explosion in the ball python population in West Africa ... they are actually considered nuisance animals over there ... if they aren't imported into the United States pet trade, they'll be exported from West Africa to Asia as a meat product, and if not exported to Asia, they would be burned out of their burrows and killed. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with a well started, healthy, CH animal from a breeder/dealer that stands behind what they sell.

    Hope this helps.

    -adam

    Good information and good figures to know, Adam!
  • 03-05-2007, 08:58 AM
    KittyJ
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Even if they do not die on the trip a lot of Bp's die at the petstore for one reason or another. I know of two petcos. One petco doesnt take in Bps readily, they house their bps pretty good. But the one near our Everett Mall, the fatalities are great. A couple die each month, they're always getting more ball pythons. And if there are more petcos and more petstores that are like this (which no doubt there is) that means more are dying than being sold and living right?
  • 03-05-2007, 09:14 AM
    rabernet
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KittyJ
    Even if they do not die on the trip a lot of Bp's die at the petstore for one reason or another. I know of two petcos. One petco doesnt take in Bps readily, they house their bps pretty good. But the one near our Everett Mall, the fatalities are great. A couple die each month, they're always getting more ball pythons. And if there are more petcos and more petstores that are like this (which no doubt there is) that means more are dying than being sold and living right?

    But by your argument, Kitty - if they only sold CB - those would be dying under those conditions as well.
  • 03-05-2007, 01:29 PM
    Adam_Wysocki
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by KittyJ
    Even if they do not die on the trip a lot of Bp's die at the petstore for one reason or another. I know of two petcos. One petco doesnt take in Bps readily, they house their bps pretty good. But the one near our Everett Mall, the fatalities are great. A couple die each month, they're always getting more ball pythons. And if there are more petcos and more petstores that are like this (which no doubt there is) that means more are dying than being sold and living right?

    They are dying in Petco and other pet stores because they are not being cared for properly ... it has nothing to do with being imported ... even CB ball pythons will die if their husbandry isn't correct.

    -adam
  • 03-05-2007, 01:58 PM
    jglass38
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
    You've gotten a hold of some incorrect information. An extremely small percentage of the ball pythons that are imported into the United States die during the trip. There are strict regulations developed by an organization called IATA that regulates the way these animals are packaged and shipped to maximize their saftey and protect their lives and health.

    Also, we do not have anywhere near "enough" "blood" in captivity to meet the demand for ball pythons in this country ... it's estimated that captive bred animals at this point don't even cover 15% of the annual demand for these animals.

    The reality is that there is an explosion in the ball python population in West Africa ... they are actually considered nuisance animals over there ... if they aren't imported into the United States pet trade, they'll be exported from West Africa to Asia as a meat product, and if not exported to Asia, they would be burned out of their burrows and killed. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with a well started, healthy, CH animal from a breeder/dealer that stands behind what they sell.

    Hope this helps.

    -adam

    You are wicked smaaaht.

    Everyone should understand the differences between WC and CH. They are quite different :D
  • 03-05-2007, 06:55 PM
    Mendel's Balls
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    I dont think a complete ban on Importation is in order. That doesnt mean that there arent possible issues to worry about with wild-caught and captive hatched specimens.

    First, it is my understanding that "captive hatched" does not necessarily reduce the number of pathogens associated with imports, as ticks have been observed to move into clutches of eggs to await hatching of the neonates. The ticks in turn could carry nasty parasites.

    These pathogens do not necessarily only pose a risk to the CH ball pythons themselves. If CH ball pythons are dumped by their owners, they pose a risk to reptiles native to the US. There is also a possibility that the pathogens could affect other categories/taxa of wild and domestic animals such as mammals or even humans. Some Zoonoses associated with ticks on exotic reptiles include tularemia, Siberian tick typhus, and tickborne relapsing fever.

    There's a pretty extensive ban on the importation of three species of African tortoises. These species were found to carry ticks that harbor Heartwater disease after their importation. Heartwater disease effects ruminants, anything from livestock cattle to white-tail deer.

    It has been recommended that both captive-hatched and wild-caught specimens be certified free of external parasites such as ticks. Some go as far as suggesting that the US spray all exotics with a safe pesticide. They argue that's it better to be proactive rather than reactive as in the case of Heartwater disease.

    The costs of the increased quarantine time could then be passed on to the customer. This would make CH and CBB more comparable in price.

    If you want to read more about these issues, see Reed, R. "An Ecological Risk Assessment of Nonnative Boas and Pythons as Potentially Invasive Species in the United States" Risk Analysis Vol. 25: No. 3. (2005)
    _______________________________________________________________

    The other possible issue with imports is more of speculative question on my part. Ball Pythons are not endangered in Africa as already pointed out, they are such a nuisance in parts of Africa considered their native range that many of those governments consider them invasive. Still I wondered a little about the genetic management of the wild population. If every aberrant looking bp is sucked up and imported out for the pet/breeding trade, couldn't this result in a genetic bottleneck for the species?
  • 03-06-2007, 05:46 PM
    wolfy-hound
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    As far as I remember from a study released, the ball python populations in Africa actually INCREASED. Something to do with the clearing of land being more habitable for pythons, or the cultivated areas increasing rodent populations, thereby increasing python numbers.
    At any rate, I don't think there is a real fear of ball pythons becoming extinct. And CH is better than WC, I think stress-wise.
    I've bought some from Neil Golli and Micheal Cole, and I think they end up with a great number of successful imports, so I don't know about the 50% die rate. Luckily ball pythons are tough, hardy snakes.
    Wolfy
  • 03-09-2007, 08:51 PM
    Pork Chops N' Corn Bread
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    I'm sure importation will slow dramatically over time. The word gets around that wild caught are not great captives, fewer people will therefor support the importers of them. Will it ever stop completley? Not likely in the near future. Fresh blood is always a good thing for any project from what I hear. With the increased number of ball pythons being produced in the US, the demand for wild caught will slowly slope to a trickle I would think. I am no expert at the ball python economy but this is just what all the economic and buisness classes has put in my mind.
  • 03-10-2007, 08:20 AM
    Ginevive
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    The whole future of breeding/selling rides on the backs of newcomers to the hobby. We can only go so long by selling/trading amongst ourselves as experienced hobbyists. To inform and educate the one-snake owner who hopes to expand their collection, is not only a noble thing to do, it helps the hobby!
  • 03-11-2007, 11:08 PM
    SPJ
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    I voted for this choice.

    Quote:

    Captive breeding will increase ball python popularitiy; therefore increasing importation.

    I think the puplarity and the decrease in morph prices will fuel increased importation. As people try to find the next new high priced morph, they will import by the tens of thousands in the hopes of finding it.

    Also, lets face reality. A newbie will not know the difference between a well established CB pastel/spider/etc sibling for sale for $50 versus the CH animal that hasn't had it's first shed or meal yet for $10. They are only going to see the "same snake" for a lot less somewhere else.

    I don't think we are anywhere near import levels coming down. I believe you will see them rise signifigantly over the next few years.
  • 03-12-2007, 12:31 AM
    tmlowe5704
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SPJ
    I voted for this choice.



    I think the puplarity and the decrease in morph prices will fuel increased importation. As people try to find the next new high priced morph, they will import by the tens of thousands in the hopes of finding it.

    Also, lets face reality. A newbie will not know the difference between a well established CB pastel/spider/etc sibling for sale for $50 versus the CH animal that hasn't had it's first shed or meal yet for $10. They are only going to see the "same snake" for a lot less somewhere else.

    I don't think we are anywhere near import levels coming down. I believe you will see them rise signifigantly over the next few years.

    never thought of it as finding the hot new morph. good way to put it!
  • 03-12-2007, 09:58 PM
    Mendel's Balls
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    I wonder how many really new hot base morphs are yet to be found however?

    There's only so much visual variability in a population. I wonder if we are at the stage were the amount of base morphs yet to be discovered is few and far between. Most of the new morphs are combo or designer morphs.
  • 03-13-2007, 12:31 AM
    wolfy-hound
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    How many variables are in cornsnakes? They were once a wild species only. Ball pythons have the same potential.
    And by continueing to say "non-feeding" and "not shed yet" you discount the many importers that DO take good care of their product. There are more and more that make sure they feed a couple times, and are healthy before they sell. Why? Because it's a selling point.
    Wolfy
  • 03-13-2007, 01:05 AM
    tmlowe5704
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls
    I wonder how many really new hot base morphs are yet to be found however?

    There's only so much visual variability in a population. I wonder if we are at the stage were the amount of base morphs yet to be discovered is few and far between. Most of the new morphs are combo or designer morphs.

    Look on the RDR site and he lists quite a few that are unique but has not yet had the chance to prove them out. You can bet some of the other big breeders such as NERD and PK are working with animals like this just to see.
  • 03-13-2007, 05:16 PM
    Snakeman
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SPJ
    A newbie will not know the difference between a well established CB pastel/spider/etc sibling for sale for $50 versus the CH animal that hasn't had it's first shed or meal yet for $10. They are only going to see the "same snake" for a lot less somewhere else.

    yeah that was me when i first started snake keeping, i learned a lot since then. even my dad would've told me to do the same thing, "why dont you get this one? it's the the same snake but cheaper".
  • 03-13-2007, 05:39 PM
    rabernet
    Re: Wild vs. Captive: How will the numbers add up in the future?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread
    I'm sure importation will slow dramatically over time. The word gets around that wild caught are not great captives, fewer people will therefor support the importers of them. Will it ever stop completley? Not likely in the near future. Fresh blood is always a good thing for any project from what I hear. With the increased number of ball pythons being produced in the US, the demand for wild caught will slowly slope to a trickle I would think. I am no expert at the ball python economy but this is just what all the economic and buisness classes has put in my mind.

    There's a huge difference in wild caught and captive hatched. The bulk of the importations are captive hatched.

    Purchase from a reputable distributor who hydrates, tests for and treats parasites and establishes a feeding routine and CH are wonderful animals, just as healthy as a CBB snake and just as reliable a feeder.

    If I turned my nose up to CH animals, I wouldn't have Pretzel and Mackenzie in my collection today - two of my animals that get the most comments on their unique looks.

    They are AWESOME captives! :D
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