Disaster!

Ugh, I came home to a real mess yesterday afetr work. I went into the bedroom and my rat cage was on the floor, busted! It was a 10 gallon! My cat knocked it over and got the lid off! Two of my baby rats were dead from the cat http://ballpython.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif They are hopper sized so I froze them...waste not, want not.

Everyone else was scattered! Babies crawling around everywhere, followed by my cat! I was so mad I threw him out into the snow....Then I started scooping up rats. I couldn't find the two adult females for a long time. Then I found one (after much searching). The mama rat was still missing and I was so bummed! After a while I went out and found the cat. He was shaken up, had no idea why I was mad and had never seen me mad before. Also, he was REALLY cold....serves him right! After he dethawed I noticed he was really interested in a binder laying on the floor....Sure enough, mama rat was hiding inside. All the rats are accounted for except one baby. I looked and looked but I could not find it; nor did the cat. Unless it's in his belly??? http://ballpython.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif They are currently in the container I bought the breeders in, a small plastic tub. I placed this tub inside my bird cage. My parrot was interested in her new room mates but if they don't move out soon, she said she's charging them rent. I had to put the refugees somewhere safe until I go buy them a new cage today.

Sigh, what a mess huh? I feel soooo bad. Who knew the cat could get into that tank? Anyways, I am going to try to get them a sturdier cage this time.

aww, sorry to hear about this - never a dull moment with rodents!


Let me say though, you are ssooo lucky you found *almost* everything. I had a nearly adult rat get loose, and it took me 2 months to catch her, of course only after she chewed up all my installation, wiring, and made a mess of my whole snake room :eek:

Make sure you give that kitty a good stern talking to :colbert:

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Originally Posted by Wolfsnaps

Who knew the cat could get into that tank?

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Well not to be blunt here, but just about anybody is the answer. Your cat may be a pet but it's a cat...with all the instincts to hunt rodents that millions of years of evoluation put in every cat ever born. Your responsibility to your cat and to your rodent colony is to make sure they have NO contact and no access to each other. Tossing your cat out into a freezing cold snowy day isn't very nice nor will "teach" the poor cat a thing. It was acting like a cat, how about you act like a responsible owner?

You were mad at the cat for doing what comes naturally? Then you punished the cat by throwing it out in freezing cold weather.

Let me be direct, concise and to the point: You should not have the right to own a pet. Not now, not ever. I am starting to believe psychological evaluation is needed before owning a pet or having a child. Un-friggin-believable!

Gee Jamie tell us what you really think! LOL I'm with Jamie on this though. To punish an animal for doing what is completely natural, what any reasonable person would expect to occur and plan to avoid....well that's just sad. To punish this cat and expect it to actually understand why it was made to endure being tossed into the snow when it was your fault it happened in the first place...well that's just awful! :mad:

I agree with the others...you punished the cat for YOUR inability to properly secure your enclosures. To me that's TWO counts of improper animal keeping!


...the cat shouldn't have been the one spending time in the snow...

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Gee Jamie tell us what you really think! LOL I'm with Jamie on this though. To punish an animal for doing what is completely natural, what any reasonable person would expect to occur and plan to avoid....well that's just sad. To punish this cat and expect it to actually understand why it was made to endure being tossed into the snow when it was your fault it happened in the first place...well that's just awful! :mad:

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Jeez, was I too harsh? I never do that! :D

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Jeez, was I too harsh? I never do that! :D

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I know...I was shocked! You're such a sweetheart and well I'm Miss Gentle and Light all the freakin time. We must just be having an off day dear. :)

:eek: Whoa guys. Lets think about this for a second.


Maybe throwing the cat outside wasn't the best move, but at least she didn't kick it across the room like i've heard some actually, truely, bad pet owners have done. I know my cats are outside all day in the feezing cold on their own free will - it can't be too bad.

Haven't we all made some mistakes in the past? I know I have... I found this site because I kept a male and female in the same tank, with no thermostats, thermometers, and no way to monitor the humidity for 5 years - a herpers worst nightmare to hear a story like this. On top of it all my male got an RI and I didnt know until he stopped eating and I came here to find out what was going on. I took him to the vet, paid the $500 to get it right, built a rack system, and bought everything I needed to make sure they were taken care of properly for the rest of their lives.

I did all of this because I truely did care about their well-being, just as I suspect Wolf cares too. I don't believe Wolf let the cat in KNOWING it could get into the tank, had this disaster, and then felt as bad as he/she did if she didn't care.

Im sure you will learn from this Wolf, and make the neccassary changes to make sure this type of thing never happens again. When this doesn't happen, maybe then we will have the right to call you a bad pet owner.

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Originally Posted by adizziedoll

:eek: Whoa guys. Lets think about this for a second.


Maybe throwing the cat outside wasn't the best move, but at least she didn't kick it across the room like i've heard some actually, truely, bad pet owners have done. I know my cats are outside all day in the feezing cold on their own free will - it can't be too bad.

Haven't we all made some mistakes in the past? I know I have... I found this site because I kept a male and female in the same tank, with no thermostats, thermometers, and no way to monitor the humidity for 5 years - a herpers worst nightmare to hear a story like this. On top of it all my male got an RI and I didnt know until he stopped eating and I came here to find out what was going on. I took him to the vet, paid the $500 to get it right, built a rack system, and bought everything I needed to make sure they were taken care of properly for the rest of their lives.

I did all of this because I truely did care about their well-being, just as I suspect Wolf cares too. I don't believe Wolf let the cat in KNOWING it could get into the tank, had this disaster, and then felt as bad as he/she did if she didn't care.

Im sure you will learn from this Wolf, and make the neccassary changes to make sure this type of thing never happens again. When this doesn't happen, maybe then we will have the right to call you a bad pet owner.

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Depends whether you find one type of animal abuse less offensive than another. I've never made the mistake of abusing my cats for doing something that comes naturally. Making a mistake with the caging isn't the issue for me. Everyone makes husbandry mistakes at some point whether its not securing a cage (I've had escaped snakes and lizards) or leaving tinsel around and finding it hanging out of their cats ass the next day (was that too graphic?). Its the punishing of the cat I take issue with.

Now the next issue (as if dead rats and a mistreated cat weren't enough). Just how many rats did you have in that 10 gallon in the first place? Hard to tell from your post but I'm counting two females with litters....one referred to as crawling about, one as "hoppers".

Let's start with some info here....rats did NOT have a developmental stage referred to as "hoppers". That's mice not rats. Rats are pinks, fuzzies, pups, weanlings. If you are going to bother to breed living creatures you might like to do a bit of research on them.

Next, a ten gallon tank is in NO way a reasonable amount of space for more than one adult female rat and her nursing offspring. It does not have the floorspace nor the ventilation to allow for enough room and to prevent a buildup of ammonia from their urination. A ten gallon is perfectly fine for one adult rat and her offspring until weaning though with a larger litter it can get quite cramped as the rats grow to weaning age.

Sorry but if you make a decision to willfully breed living creatures I believe they deserve a reasonable level of care. That does NOT include overcrowding multiple breeding females and their offspring. It does include spending the time and funds to provide appropriate housing that is safe from predation by other household pets. Accidents happen, not realizing your cat would go after those breeding females and their young was NOT an accident. If the cat popped open the bedroom door, it should have been locked to prevent that occurring....a completely foreseeable event in my mind that the cat might try that.

Look Dizzie I can sugar coat this if you want.

Okay it's perfectly fine to stick just how many rats in a 10 gallon glass tank. It's perfectly reasonable to allow a cat, a species that any reasonable person knows instinctively hunts rodents, to have access to these rodents that cannot run away from said predator. It's completely amazing that a cat went after those rats and ate a couple...imagine that...who would have thought? Of course the appropriate response is to punish the cat by tossing it into a snow bank, then come online and post about it. Imagine anyone getting at all upset by this.

Look dear there are mistakes, everyone makes them, I've made a ton and will make more in the future I'm quite sure. Some things however are not mistakes or accidents and we as responsible, thinking humans are supposed to stand up to it, accept responsibility and learn from it. Not abuse some poor animal or have other animals living in substandard conditions in the first place. Sorry but there's not a lot of sugar I'm about to pour on this thread.

I once had a BP that ate my pet mouse when I let them play together in the same room. I threw that BP into the freezer to teach him a lesson. LOL

If the cat has access to the rats, this will happen over and over. Not the cats fault.

Ok, Well, I respect all of your opinions. Thanks. I also understand that the 10 gallon was too small for what I want to do. I had visited my local pet shop yesterday to purchase a ten gallon topper but now I am glad I didn't since the ten gallon is ruined. The plan as the first litter grew up was to move the snake to a 40 gallon and move the rats into the 20 long. But now I am just going to buy a rat cage after work today. I referred to the rats as hoppers because they are african soft furred and to call them weanling rats doesn't give you the right size description.
It is soooo easy for people to point the finger and blame someone based on what little you know about the person. I take very good care of all my animals. I do all the research first, buy them the best I can afford, and make them as happy as possible. They all get high quality foods, vet treatments whenever needed plus PE's, toys, teeth brushed (for those who have teeth except the cat),nails trimmed,coats brushed,regualr bathing,supplements,play time, excersize,ect. I think I am doing a mighty fine job thanks.

and ADIZZIEDOLL, thank you for standing up for me. I don't scout out message boards looking for someone who has made a mistake and then tell them off for it....pshhh....Instead of condeming someone like that,how about maybe suggesting a better way of doing things. Yes, I know you can not punish the cat. But he was in the way so I threw his fuzzy butt outside for like, what? an hour? There are outside cats out there and they get along living outside just fine. I brought the cat back in after all the broken glass was picked up and the rats were sequestered. PLus I was angry. Angry at the cat? Not really, more like angry at myself and the situation.

SHame on you guys for making me feel bad, like I don't feel bad enough as it is! I come onto boards like this to learn, and maybe make a friend or two. Thanks for making me feel like crap!

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Originally Posted by Wolfsnaps

Ok, Well, I respect all of your opinions. Thanks. I also understand that the 10 gallon was too small for what I want to do. I had visited my local pet shop yesterday to purchase a ten gallon topper but now I am glad I didn't since the ten gallon is ruined. The plan as the first litter grew up was to move the snake to a 40 gallon and move the rats into the 20 long. But now I am just going to buy a rat cage after work today. I referred to the rats as hoppers because they are african soft furred and to call them weanling rats doesn't give you the right size description.
It is soooo easy for people to point the finger and blame someone based on what little you know about the person. I take very good care of all my animals. I do all the research first, buy them the best I can afford, and make them as happy as possible. They all get high quality foods, vet treatments whenever needed plus PE's, toys, teeth brushed (for those who have teeth except the cat),nails trimmed,coats brushed,regualr bathing,supplements,play time, excersize,ect. I think I am doing a mighty fine job thanks.

and ADIZZIEDOLL, thank you for standing up for me. I don't scout out message boards looking for someone who has made a mistake and then tell them off for it....pshhh....Instead of condeming someone like that,how about maybe suggesting a better way of doing things. Yes, I know you can not punish the cat. But he was in the way so I threw his fuzzy butt outside for like, what? an hour? There are outside cats out there and they get along living outside just fine. I brought the cat back in after all the broken glass was picked up and the rats were sequestered. PLus I was angry. Angry at the cat? Not really, more like angry at myself and the situation.

SHame on you guys for making me feel bad, like I don't feel bad enough as it is! I come onto boards like this to learn, and maybe make a friend or two. Thanks for making me feel like crap!

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Putting the cat in another room and closing the door would have sufficed. Its great that you take care of your animals, but in this case you punished the cat for your mistake. People are judged by their actions, whether intentionally wrong or mistaken. Its what you do to make changes and turn things around that matters most. I love seeing new people here learning and becoming better caretakers for their pets and meeting new friends. I have met tons of people on here and made some great friends.

Wolfsnaps:

First; I am not condoning your method of correction for your pet’s unwanted actions. I feel that they may have been a little over the top. Now with that said your desire to correct the issue with the rats housing is commendable instead of hoping it never happened again and shows a great care for them and their well being.

Second; it is my two cents that "YES" a few members did jump on you a little hard. But as with any thing where you deal with different people you get different personalities (SP). Please don't take offence and know that the same person that bashes you for your rat/cat mishap today will be complementing you on your animals and congratulating on your new snake.

You can find friends here and will I promise

It's not our fault you "feel like crap" hon and not our responsibility to pat your back and say "awwww" when you didn't do right by either the rats or the cat. If you post threads where you might reasonably expect someone to go "you threw a cat out in the cold???" "you keep way too many rats stuffed in a far too small tank????" and then are upset because someone gave you a blunt response, then perhaps you are still looking for someone else to blame other than yourself.

I'll give you an example....recently we lost an 06 BP. It got loose because I personally messed up...not my husband....not my son whose snake it was...not the tub with the loose lid...me. I was overtired, forgot to properly check clips and one lovely snake is now likely dead due to my actions. Should I look for sympathy or call this an accident? Nope. When I posted about Helori's loss here and spoke privately to the BPNet member that bred her and gave her to my son I would not have minded being told I was a brainless fool. I know better, I know how snakes can escape and I was totally dumb to work with the snakes when barely awake.

I got a lot of support here because I have a long history of being anal about safety and so forth but I never expected to get it or figured I deserved it. I mostly posted so others would help me figure out how to tell my 5 year old that mom messed up and also to warn members to not do as I did and risk a snake dying as a result.

Sorry but if you want hand holding perhaps you should have posted how you messed up and how you plan to fix a situation or ask for advice. Not go off about how you tossed your cat outside because you were mad. Also don't tell me you spend a ton of your pets when you stuffed all those rats in a 10 gallon tank. They are $10.00 brand new at WalMart and another $12.00 for a good wire lid and clips, another $5.00 for a water bottle, $2.00 or less for a food dish. If you want to breed more females then you first spend the $29.00 on the tank and lid...not after they are all stuffed in there.

I don't see anything wrong with punishing a pet for misbehaving. After all, that's what everyone with a pet does when it misbehaves according to the owner whether it is due to instinct or personality. That's the whole point of taming and domesticating and animal so they can be used as a pet.

Some animals, such as our snakes, are unable to be tamed so we deal with it. However, animals such as cats and dogs have the capacity to learn and modify their behavior even if it goes against their instinct. It may be their instinct to bite everyone they don't know, but you wouldn't allow that type of behavior.

Now as far as how and when that animal is punished is a different story. Just like any other type of behavior modification, some can be cruel and ineffective and other methods are more positive and more effective. I don't think throwing the cat out in the snow taught it anything, but that doesn't mean it can't eventually be taught to stay away from the rat cage.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Next, a ten gallon tank is in NO way a reasonable amount of space for more than one adult female rat and her nursing offspring.
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Sorry, one last thing....I had one mother with a litter and a babysitter rat. I know, still too small. I totally agree. SO I am rectifying it sooner then I wanted to, but oh well.

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Originally Posted by Wolfsnaps

Ok, Well, I respect all of your opinions. Thanks. I also understand that the 10 gallon was too small for what I want to do. I had visited my local pet shop yesterday to purchase a ten gallon topper but now I am glad I didn't since the ten gallon is ruined.

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Are you telling us you had all this in a tank with no top? They were bound to get out anyway then. Why did you wait til everyone posted shaming you to tell us they were ASF?

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

It's not our fault you "feel like crap" hon
. Also don't tell me you spend a ton of your pets when you stuffed all those rats in a 10 gallon tank. They are $10.00 brand new at WalMart and another $12.00 for a good wire lid and clips, another $5.00 for a water bottle, $2.00 or less for a food dish. If you want to breed more females then you first spend the $29.00 on the tank and lid...not after they are all stuffed in there.

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Hon???Always thought that was a term of endearment? lol.

I had the ten gallon tank. I was at an expo, bought a trio and put them in the tank temporarily. I had every intention of putting them into a larger tank. But now I am glad because a cage has better ventilation. SO I will get a cage instead.

SO yes, I probably should have bought a cage first, then bought the rats. But I didn't. I guess I am not perfect, go firgure.

I'll try and add some positive reinforcement here to help turn the topic around. To prevent such things from happening to my reptiles and rodents they are all kept behind closed doors (locking isn't out of the question). No people or other animals go in without me knowing. We don't have cats at the moment but we do have two dogs. One is a Jack Russel...bred for hunting and killing small animals. Neither dogs are allowed in the room unless we are in there with them.

I have had escaped animals in the past as well so I'm not perfect in that regard. Luckily again behind closed doors makes the find easier. My beef was with the cat issue also...it may be the way you worded that made it seem vile to all of us. Saying that you threw a cat into the snow and that you took pleasure in seeing it suffer from the cold elements doesn't put a happy picture in most minds.

NO no...I had a screen lid on the tank but I wanted to get an expansion topper, like a second story. of course...I wouldnt keep rats (especially these jumpers) in a cage with no lid...wow, what do you think I am.


Yes, I was mean. I took out stuff on my cat. I don't think it was that bad though really. He was outside for an hour tops. He was originally an outside cat and would still be living outside if I didn't bring him in. I didn't beat him...I just tossed him outside. You guys are using words like "abuse" when this cat is spoiled rotten.

Nobody is perfect but the simple fact is we are the responsible parties. Buying live creatures with nowhere to house them isn't fair to them. Rodents or not, they deserve their simple and very basic needs met or we can wait to get them when we are setup. I've had bigger litters born and had to do the fast run out to the store to get more tanks/tubs. It's not terribly convenient but you do what is right by the animals you are responsible for. So the male was in with both females in that 10? Perhaps I'm confused.

Lawrence, one quick comment about dogs/cats and rodents. You can very well train a dog or cat to avoid rodents but the simple fact is you are fighting a bit of a losing battle against instinct, both in the rats and in the other pets. Our dog is very interested in the rodent cages. She hasn't shown aggression but the female breeders are upset by her being close. They run to bury their litters or become tense and aggressive. Is that fair to them? They are basically trapped with what they perceive as a predator lurking near their litters. Sure they are "only" feeders but I just don't think that's terribly nice for them to be in fear and unable to escape. We don't allow Gunnar to approach the rats because of this. She is also never allowed loose when a rat or snake is out of it's enclosure. Why tempt fate or have creatures stressed for no good reason.

Three asf rats in a ten gallon isnt bad. I had a place to house them, its not like I bought them and then thought, oh crap, ill just put them in a shoe box......Then the mama rat had her litter and I took the male out. Maybe thats where I lost you Franky. But I left the other female because she was helping with the litter so much. The father was too but it was a little too much in that cage and he did the least so he was transferred elsewhere. I read that non-nursing asf females can be stimulated to lactate by some other rats babies so I left her in there too. She was a better mommy than the actual mother.

Having the information these were ASF's and not regular rats who are much larger might have been a bit of a help so I'll apologize if their housing/husbandry needs are less than the rats most of us are more familar with. The rest stands.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Lawrence, one quick comment about dogs/cats and rodents. You can very well train a dog or cat to avoid rodents but the simple fact is you are fighting a bit of a losing battle against instinct, both in the rats and in the other pets. Our dog is very interested in the rodent cages. She hasn't shown aggression but the female breeders are upset by her being close. They run to bury their litters or become tense and aggressive. Is that fair to them? They are basically trapped with what they perceive as a predator lurking near their litters. Sure they are "only" feeders but I just don't think that's terribly nice for them to be in fear and unable to escape. We don't allow Gunnar to approach the rats because of this. She is also never allowed loose when a rat or snake is out of it's enclosure. Why tempt fate or have creatures stressed for no good reason.

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Unfortunately many people do have multiple, naturally competive pets in the same environment: birds and cats, cats and dogs, cats and rodents, etc. I agree with you that it is unfair to stress out feeder rats if one can avoid it, but most feeder rats are not tamed and act mostly on instinct regardless of the situation. I know mine behave just as if I was a predator by cowering and covering up their young whenever I check on them.

My point was that pets can be taught to cohabitate. That could mean something as simple as placing the feeder rats in a secure enclosure on a shelf or rack and teaching your cat not to jump up on the rack. Or if people have enough patience, they can teach their cat to get along with a pet rat even though it goes against both of their instincts.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Unfortunately many people do have multiple, naturally competive pets in the same environment: birds and cats, cats and dogs, cats and rodents, etc. I agree with you that it is unfair to stress out feeder rats if one can avoid it, but most feeder rats are not tamed and act mostly on instinct regardless of the situation. I know mine behave just as if I was a predator by cowering and covering up their young whenever I check on them.

My point was that pets can be taught to cohabitate. That could mean something as simple as placing the feeder rats in a secure enclosure on a shelf or rack and teaching your cat not to jump up on the rack. Or if people have enough patience, they can teach their cat to get along with a pet rat even though it goes against both of their instincts.

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Although I still practice utmost safety and keep them separated, my cats have no interest in the rats anymore. We have one cat that we have even socialized with a couple of our breeders. I sometimes leave the rat room open when I am there and the cats may stand next to the rack and look in. I have no doubt that if one escaped though, that they would pounce and do what comes naturally. We once had parakeets for about 2 weeks. We hung the cage from the ceiling and the cats still found a way to torment them and eventually knocked the cage down to the floor. We came home to find birds flying around the kitchen. It just wasn't worth it to have to worry about the birds safety every day. Same thing with the snakes and cats. They couldn't care less and have even been socialized a bit with a couple of the smaller Balls.

I do appreciate what everyone has to say on the matter. I don't expect a cat to change its ways, or stop teach them to ignore their instincts. I just didn't think my cat (who is somewhat small) could knock over the tank AND THEN take the lid off. I guess I am naive to cat ways since this little guy is my first but I just didn't see it coming!

I don't think I would have the patience to try to teach the cat anything like that...I have noticed that cats are pretty persistant when they want something.
We are renovating right now so the only safe place to keep the pets is the bedroom....It isn't ideal. But I am excited that the place we live is expanding and soon the animals WILL be serperated. Until then though (it only gets done as fast and my fiance and his buddies work on it) the animals will have to cohabitate.

When I started this thread I was just venting. I didn't realize you guys thought that these were regular rats or that I had to explain the reason they were in the same room...I guess that gets confusing. But anyways, no big deal

...another family argument coming to an end, pizza and movies for dinner!

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Originally Posted by TekWarren

...another family argument coming to an end, pizza and movies for dinner!

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Yaaaay! You're buying, right?

Ooo, I'll have to inform my kitties I vill chop off their paws!!! How dare they try to get in the rat cages vhenever they sveeze past me!...though sometimes I think the rats are having more fun then the cats, they looove cat fur.

Cats are predators, they are bratty and curious and demonic. If they can knock something down, they will. With cats you have to 'babyproof' a room (and then they still run full speed into glass doors, I'm suprised they don't have brain damage yet).
If you have something like a 10 gallon up somewhere DO expect your cat to get it.

You need to be more prepared, it was your mistake not the cats. Good to see you're going to fix it.

Now what kinda pizza you ordering Tek?

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Originally Posted by jglass38

You were mad at the cat for doing what comes naturally? Then you punished the cat by throwing it out in freezing cold weather.

Let me be direct, concise and to the point: You should not have the right to own a pet. Not now, not ever. I am starting to believe psychological evaluation is needed before owning a pet or having a child. Un-friggin-believable!

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LOL...hey, at least she didn't shoot it with a paintball gun!

(I can't believe this thread went this long without someone bringing that up!)

man, some of y'all seem so vicious

Did you think that she walked into the room & saw her rats in danger (whether it was her fault or not) & reacted, did the first thing that came to mind, i.e. get the cat out, so she could the rats out of harms way?

I'm sure her intention was not to harm or hurt her cat, Yes, she could have put it in a room but when you're in a situation like that who's to say that you're thinking clear enough to think that. You're first thought & reaction would be to get the cat out.

I'm sure when she went & got the cat that he was cuddled & petted & reassured. I don't think the cat was hurt & I believe that if given a chance, will do it again. He's a cat.

As for the reprimanding for doing what comes naturally .... that is done everyday.
Dogs naturally dig, bark & chase things but they're reprimanded for it & taught not to whether it's for their safety or whatever.
Obedience training is a good example. They may use positive reinforcement instead but the end goal is to change things that are natural to the animal.
And anyone who has or has had cats & dogs know cats are much more stubborn than dogs.


edit .... if you're not a she, I apologize, I meant no disrespect

I said GOOD-DAY!

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Originally Posted by TekWarren

I said GOOD-DAY!

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good day to you too :)

I know a cat that lives outside and always has, and sometimes it's cold here.

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Originally Posted by TekWarren

I said GOOD-DAY!

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Look everyone, Fez is a member of BP.net :D.

Physical punishment for cat's, dog's etc. is 100% neccisary and perfectly fine. A cat could be trained quit easily to stay away froma certain part of the house or room, Why don't you get 10 foot counters so your cat's can't climb on top of them? It's unnecessary to do this when you can disiplean them, cat's have been evolved to hunt for millions of years but, they've been kept in captivity for several thousend years and are easy to discipline. If a cat does something wrong, you discipline it, like a child. If a kid into your gun room, would it be better to get a lock it, or educate your child not to get into it. about things they are not allowed to get into. Cats and dogs are intelligent enough to pick up this message and will quickly show improvement. "Cat Proofing" is a band-aid solution for a much bigger problem, cat's will get into everything no matter what you do unless they are trained. Dozens of people are injured by dogs each year, because there owners are lazy and figure there dogs are fine even though they occasionally bite the mailman guests etc. but remember it's not the dog's fault :P

Well I wanted to say something productive to this thread, but after reading all of it, I realized that I would just piss people off arguing about how I think that animal rights activist have gone too far.

I used to wait in the car for my mom while she was in the store. God forbid that you leave a dog in the car now-a-days.

Thanks guys, I love the freedom I just got done fighting for be taken away from me. Oh, wait that was so that 10% of the people could protest and make more regulations for the other 90% and feel good because now the rats are treated more humanly.





BTW I just got out of the Army, where I spent 5 out of the last 8 years not in this country.

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Originally Posted by smasharama13

Well I wanted to say something productive to this thread, but after reading all of it, I realized that I would just piss people off arguing about how I think that animal rights activist have gone too far.

I used to wait in the car for my mom while she was in the store. God forbid that you leave a dog in the car now-a-days.

Thanks guys, I love the freedom I just got done fighting for be taken away from me. Oh, wait that was so that 10% of the people could protest and make more regulations for the other 90% and feel good because now the rats are treated more humanly.





BTW I just got out of the Army, where I spent 5 out of the last 8 years not in this country.

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You've said nothing. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Some people won't like it (including me I'm sure by your cryptic tiptoeing). Kids shouldn't be left alone in a car, dogs shouldn't be left alone in a car. There is a big difference between animal rights activists (the PETA type) and people who think animals deserve to be treated with respect. I personally think the punishment for animal abuse isn't nearly harsh enough. You mentioned your service for this country twice in the post but I don't see the relevance.

"animal rights activist"???? Sorry dear but PETA would burn me at the stake since I keep 15 snakes and 75+ rats/mice in cages and "force" them to breed. I prefer to think of myself as an animal welfare advocate if any silly label needs be applied. Since I choose to have living animals and choose to put sexually mature creatures together with the aim of reproduction then I just feel it's incumbent upon me to see to their best interests. Not only for the creatures involved but in the case of our breeder/feeder rat colony, it's just good business. Good care/housing leads to healthy breeding stock and therefore more and healthier litters of feeders produced. When it comes to domesticated pets, they deserve as much or more. They are bred as companion animals and often are highly bonded to their humans and very dependent on us. They deserve a level of care that I didn't see exhibited here, so I spoke up and I'll likely do it again. :)

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Originally Posted by smasharama13

Well I wanted to say something productive to this thread, but after reading all of it, I realized that I would just piss people off arguing about how I think that animal rights activist have gone too far.

I used to wait in the car for my mom while she was in the store. God forbid that you leave a dog in the car now-a-days.

Thanks guys, I love the freedom I just got done fighting for be taken away from me. Oh, wait that was so that 10% of the people could protest and make more regulations for the other 90% and feel good because now the rats are treated more humanly.





BTW I just got out of the Army, where I spent 5 out of the last 8 years not in this country.

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I understood it. And thank you for serving.

I don't know why you all insist on using common sense and freedoms when there is a perfectly good ZT bandwagon to jump on!

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Originally Posted by jglass38

You've said nothing. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Some people won't like it (including me I'm sure by your cryptic tiptoeing). Kids shouldn't be left alone in a car, dogs shouldn't be left alone in a car. There is a big difference between animal rights activists (the PETA type) and people who think animals deserve to be treated with respect. I personally think the punishment for animal abuse isn't nearly harsh enough. You mentioned your service for this country twice in the post but I don't see the relevance.

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OK then, here I go.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

You were mad at the cat for doing what comes naturally? Then you punished the cat by throwing it out in freezing cold weather.

Let me be direct, concise and to the point: You should not have the right to own a pet. Not now, not ever. I am starting to believe psychological evaluation is needed before owning a pet or having a child. Un-friggin-believable!

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Firstly, I hope when your kids, if you have any, come up and tell you something or you catch them being bad, that you don't blow up on them like you did this poster.


Cat's are outside animals which people keep inside. We take away the freedom that they naturally and instinctively have, there for putting a cat outside (unless you live in a place like Montana or places in Canada where it get to be like -30 deg. or in a metropolitan or other large city) and even making it stay there is not a problem. I personally don't and probably wouldn't own a cat.



Rats are barley able to be considered as pet creatures, but they are. I think that having a few (non pet) feeder rats, (even before you know the size so assume it's a normal rat) in an environment that might not be quite a comfortable and optimal as a large cage in no problem at all.

Additionally you all snapped on this person without first getting more accurate details.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Its the punishing of the cat I take issue with.

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Was it punishment, or are you the one over reacting? Here's an example of something that happened to me the other day.

My darn dogs got into the trash yesterday. I was so mad at them. I put them outside for like 3 hours and it was sooo cold.

Am I cruel for making them stay outside? No!

Now the exact same scenario with a little more detail........... When I came home after being gone for about 6 hours, I found that the darn dogs got into the trash (something they haven't done in a really long time). Was I angry, yes. I put the dogs out into the fenced yard, one to get them out of my way while I cleaned and two for them to go to the bathroom. After I got everything picked up about 10 minutes later, I went to let the dogs in and they were having so much fun running around playing in the cold rain that they didn't want to come in. I checked on them every 30 minutes or so and they finally decided it was time to come in after about 3 hours.



You see the difference in the way I worded this and how you felt when you read each example?

I don't think Wolf was really thinking about what she wrote about the cat, but was more focused on the fact that it knocked down and broke that rat tank.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Jeez, was I too harsh? I never do that! :D

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This looks to me like it regularly makes your day when you make others feel like they are 2 feet tall. Since this is only what I read and how I interpret your words, I really don't know. If these words were spoken, I could further get the emotions from your tone and understand more your meaning.





Since returning from Korea in November, I've seen this show on the TV called ASPC Huston/Phoenix. They get way carried away on that show, to go so far as to take an animal from it's albeit irresponsible owner and then simply put the animal down because they feel like it can't be adopted out as a safe animal. Sometimes they take the animals away for some really bad reasons, and sometime the animals are really being abused. What's worse, being dead or not being groomed? I just hope that my tax dollars are going to something a little more productive to man kind than having people go around confiscating animals just to put them down.

the #3, and #4 posts in this thread reminded me of this show. If you can't be responsible, then we're going to kill your animals kind of thing. After reading your responses to my first post, I guess you're not quite like that.

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Originally Posted by smasharama13

OK then, here I go.




Firstly, I hope when your kids, if you have any, come up and tell you something or you catch them being bad, that you don't blow up on them like you did this poster.

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You could bet I would discipline them properly. Kids need direction and occassionally to be smacked when they aren't listening. Unfortunately what was perfectly ok in the past (disciplining your child) is now considered abusive and invites stares from strangers and most likely a call to child services.

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Cat's are outside animals which people keep inside. We take away the freedom that they naturally and instinctively have, there for putting a cat outside (unless you live in a place like Montana or places in Canada where it get to be like -30 deg. or in a metropolitan or other large city) and even making it stay there is not a problem. I personally don't and probably wouldn't own a cat.

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Cats are domesticated animals and wonderful pets. They are as sensitive to abuse/neglect as man's best friend. You not owning a cat wouldn't allow you to know that. The original poster threw her cat outside in the cold for doing something that came naturally and instinctually to it. There is a big difference in disciplining a child as a means to change behavior patterns. and punishing an animal for following its instinct.

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Rats are barley able to be considered as pet creatures, but they are. I think that having a few (non pet) feeder rats, (even before you know the size so assume it's a normal rat) in an environment that might not be quite a comfortable and optimal as a large cage in no problem at all.

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Why are rats barely able to be considered pet creatures? Because you say so? I (and a lot of others) believe them to be among the best small animal pets that you can have. They are smart, interesting, friendly creatures.

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My darn dogs got into the trash yesterday. I was so mad at them. I put them outside for like 3 hours and it was sooo cold.

Am I cruel for making them stay outside? No!

Now the exact same scenario with a little more detail........... When I came home after being gone for about 6 hours, I found that the darn dogs got into the trash (something they haven't done in a really long time). Was I angry, yes. I put the dogs out into the fenced yard, one to get them out of my way while I cleaned and two for them to go to the bathroom. After I got everything picked up about 10 minutes later, I went to let the dogs in and they were having so much fun running around playing in the cold rain that they didn't want to come in. I checked on them every 30 minutes or so and they finally decided it was time to come in after about 3 hours.


You see the difference in the way I worded this and how you felt when you read each example?

I don't think Wolf was really thinking about what she wrote about the cat, but was more focused on the fact that it knocked down and broke that rat tank.

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Its not MY job to interpret people's posts. I read it the same as others did and came to the same conclusion. Maybe she should have been more clear. I still would have felt that it was cruel.

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This looks to me like it regularly makes your day when you make others feel like they are 2 feet tall. Since this is only what I read and how I interpret your words, I really don't know. If these words were spoken, I could further get the emotions from your tone and understand more your meaning.

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Think what you want. People need to be responsible for things they say or type. I react the way I feel at the time. Not everyone likes me or my style. That is really ok though! :D

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Since returning from Korea in November, I've seen this show on the TV called ASPC Huston/Phoenix. They get way carried away on that show, to go so far as to take an animal from it's albeit irresponsible owner and then simply put the animal down because they feel like it can't be adopted out as a safe animal. Sometimes they take the animals away for some really bad reasons, and sometime the animals are really being abused. What's worse, being dead or not being groomed? I just hope that my tax dollars are going to something a little more productive to man kind than having people go around confiscating animals just to put them down.

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So its ok to leave animals in abusive homes rather than take them out of the situation and try to rehabilitate them and find them GOOD homes? Sounds like they are doing a really horrible thing! :confused: Sometimes animals are not adoptable after years of abuse and neglect and must be put to sleep. Yes that is absolutely better for them.

The problem is that you don't have a lot of experience with shelters, rescues and seeing animal abuse/neglect firsthand. I do. I've spent the better part of my life working with animals in one way or another. I grew up with many cats and dogs, fish, small animals and reptiles in the house. I have worked at animal shelters and did years of volunteer work with a rescue organization that my mother ran. I have also worked for years at pet stores trying to educate people before they purchase animals. I have seen the cruelty that humans have put animals through and it disgusts me. I react strongly to it.

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the #3, and #4 posts in this thread reminded me of this show. If you can't be responsible, then we're going to kill your animals kind of thing. After reading your responses to my first post, I guess you're not quite like that.

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Correct! If you don't take proper care of your animals, they should be taken away. If it is determined that you were cruel to the animals you should go to prison and be barred from every owning an animal again. The problem is that our country is too lenient on animal abusers. Animals rely upon us for care, love and companionship. Those who betray that deserve the worst punishment possible.

Jamie has said everything I would have.
Thank you for saving me the time.

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Originally Posted by joyful girl

Jamie has said everything I would have.
Thank you for saving me the time.

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No problem! :D

Well, you are correct in the fact that I have never worked first hand in a rescue situation. I do too feel that there should be more harsh punishments for "abuse". I also think that one persons views on what is to be considered abuse is not the same as the next. I think there should be harsher punishments for all types of crimes like theft, murder and sexual crimes to name a few, but my ideals of what should be the appropriate punishment would be regarded by many as inhumane.

I do hope, now that every ones rats, cats, dogs, snakes and what ever other pets they have are being treated good, and I hope that Wolf has learned from what ever it is that went wrong.

I guess in the heat of the moment, we all make bad decisions. Lets just hope that the consequences of those decisions don't lead to others suffering from them.


Good day to you all.

Well, I bought a 2 story wire cage with tubes, a wheel, ect. The rats love it! I also put up a barracade so the cat can't get to the cage, let alone knock it over. SO everyone is safe and content...




All this fuss....geezzzz......