jungle/jungle pastel/ pastel

i just wanted to know the difference between the jungle/jungle pastel/ pastel morphs, if there is a difference. to me they all look the same. just curious

The Pastel and Pastel Jungle are the same morph. I've never heard "Jungle" used on it's own, but some people refer to Cinny's and Congo's as Jungles as well.

im purchasing my first pastel, thats pretty much why i was asking....

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Originally Posted by juddb

i just wanted to know the difference between the jungle/jungle pastel/ pastel morphs, if there is a difference. to me they all look the same. just curious

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It's all the same thing ... When the morph was proven in the late 90's, it was given then name "Pastel Jungle" ... over the years, many have choosen to shorten the name to just "Pastel" and others with a lack of attention to detail often confuse the order of the names and call them "Jungle Pastels".

In the end, they're a hot base mutation that is quickly becoming very affordable for everyone and you can't go wrong calling them whatever you'd like ... I prefer to call as many as I can get my hands on ... "mine". ;) :D :P

-adam

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Originally Posted by juddb

im purchasing my first pastel, thats pretty much why i was asking....

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Pastels are a great morph, and as Adam said, affordable as well. There are several lineages (VPI, Graziani, Bell, Blonde, Enichi, Lemon). Each have their own unique traits, so do your research before you decide.

I'm one to prefer Lemons and Graziani's, but the individual animal is really what matters :).

Correct me if I am wrong here but the Enichi is not really a pastel it a totly diferent deal all together right ?

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Correct me if I am wrong here but the Enichi is not really a pastel it a totly diferent deal all together right ?

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Depends on what you consider "different" I suppose. The Enchi certainly has some characteristics that differ from most other lines, but that's not rare among the Pastel lines.

For a good comparison I'll use Supers, since the distinctions are more visible.

http://ballpython.110mb.com/wiki/ind...all_Python.jpg
http://newenglandreptile.com/forumpics/superlemon.jpg
http://www.sweball.com/snakes/10large.jpg

The first is a Super Graziani, the second is a Super Lemon, the last photo is a picture of a Super Enchi. As the photo depicts, Graziani's tend to have far more blushing, the lemons tend to have a higher yellow, and the Enchi's tend to have a very different head pattern.

They are all Codom morphs, and on appearances alone SEEM to be different alleles of the same gene. So I wouldn't say they are different, anymore than the other Pastel lines are different from one another.

Well put! Oh and I really like the websight

So are Enchis compatible with other lines of pastel? I had thought for some reason that they were a different morph.

And where do Ruppel pastels fit into the scheme of things? Saw some of them this weekend (I think that's what they were) and thought they were kinda ugly...do they make anything cool, or is just a question of differing aesthetics?

Heres a pic of my jungle pastel, the difference is pattern variation. :) http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...g?t=1170636579

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

The Pastel and Pastel Jungle are the same morph. I've never heard "Jungle" used on it's own, but some people refer to Cinny's and Congo's as Jungles as well.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Well put! Oh and I really like the websight

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Thanks :).

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Originally Posted by slartibartfast

So are Enchis compatible with other lines of pastel? I had thought for some reason that they were a different morph.

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I'm not sure if it's been tried yet. But even if they aren't, it doesn't neccesarily mean they aren't the same gene. Axanthics, for example, are incompatible (at least some of the lines are... Adam knows Axanthics extremely well so perhaps he can elaborate on that).

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

Heres a pic of my jungle pastel, the difference is pattern variation.

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What line is that Ed?

The jungle looking pastel was originally a graziani, but breeding to a jungle looking normal erased the blushing and copied the mother normals pattern. could never duplicate that pattern? :)

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Originally Posted by slartibartfast

And where do Ruppel pastels fit into the scheme of things?

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I'm really not sure. The more recent Pastel lines (Enchi and Rupple's especially) have had a lot of claims thrown about. Most notably, that they are "completely different" and other such things.

The only way to prove they are different genes is to breed them together. Until that's been done, I think it's premature to just assume it's two distinct genes at work. As far as I know, no one has bred them together as of yet, so we can't be making such big assumptions.

Until I see a Ruppel and Graziani breed and produce two different morphs, I consider them the same gene.

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

The jungle looking pastel was originally a graziani, but breeding to a jungle looking normal erased the blushing and copied the mother normals pattern. could never duplicate that pattern? :)

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Very interesting. I'm sure you have other projects in mind, but it would certainly be interesting to see it bred to another Graziani and see if the Supers retain the Graziani "Super" blushing.

I guess that this question is related.. how about "blonde" pastels? most of the ones I saw just looked like regular pastels that browned out a little...?

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I guess that this question is related.. how about "blonde" pastels? most of the ones I saw just looked like regular pastels that browned out a little...?

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Pretty much the same deal. Unfortunately, the only cross-line breeding I KNOW of is a Lemon to a Graziani, which did produce a super. I've HEARD that most of the "Classic" lines have been bred to each other as well, also resulting in supers.

Basically, when we breed what we *think* are two lines together, the potential results are as follows:

If a Super is produced: Same gene.
If all normals: Same gene (but non-complimentary).
If you get two "different" morphs and some normals: Different gene.

The problem with such determinations is that they aren't concrete in a single breeding season. It's possible to get all normals even if they are non-complimentary. On top of that, there is only a 25% chance of producing Supers.

Worst of all, some of the lines (the Ruppel and Graziani especially) can come in a WIDE variety of flavors, so one may be confused into believing there are two different morphs, when it's really one morph with several abborant versions.

So unless someone is willing to dedicate two different pastels for one to three breeding seasons, we won't know with 100% accuracy. The risk is even higher considering mixed crosses may not even sell.

An Enchi Pastel is NOT compatible with other Pastels...An Enchi is it's own Morph...

I am mainly working with Blonde Pastels...They tend to look better as adults...Here are some pics...Jon

Adult Blonde Pastel x Black Pastel
http://coldbloodedaddiction.com/site...nnyxblonde.jpg
'06 Blonde Pastel
http://coldbloodedaddiction.com/site...astel5-065.jpg
'06 Blonde Pastel and VPI Axanthic
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...Female046l.jpg
'06 Blonde Pastel
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...mpastel3-1.jpg

I also produce some really nice Pastels with this male from RDR...
http://coldbloodedaddiction.com/site...pastelmale.jpg

Forgot...Here is a pic of a hatchling from my RDR Line Pastel for comparison...Jon

'06 RDR Line Pastel
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...astelMale2.jpg

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

An Enchi Pastel is NOT compatible with other Pastels...An Enchi is it's own Morph...

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Okay, well show me a picture of a Double Codom Enchi x Pastel and I'll believe you. I've never heard of it, but that will certainly prove the case!

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Okay, well show me a picture of a Double Codom Enchi x Pastel and I'll believe you. I've never heard of it, but that will certainly prove the case!

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I don't know that there is one, but I know there is a Stinger Bee (Enchi X Spider) that looks nothing like a Bumble Bee...

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

I don't know that there is one, but I know there is a Stinger Bee (Enchi X Spider) that looks nothing like a Bumble Bee...

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That doesn't matter. Pewters, Silver Bullets and Silver Streaks ALL look different if you use a Black, rather than a Cinny. Yet, the Black and Cinny ARE the same gene, just different Alleles.

Again, unless an Enchi x Pastel does not produce Supers, nobody can claim they are "different".

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

I don't know that there is one, but I know there is a Stinger Bee (Enchi X Spider) that looks nothing like a Bumble Bee...

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Why would you claim that they're not compatible if you can't back it up? :confused:

Here's a junlge :D


http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...ython/halo.jpg

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Why would you claim that they're not compatible if you can't back it up? :confused:

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New Pastel lines are beggining to make claims like this often. Stan Ruppel made these claims early on with his line, and unfortunately, people soaked it up. The obvious purpose is to make more $$$. Sad really...

Where people got this idea about Enchi's is beyond me. Even Lars Brandell specifically states that he believes (and still does) Enchi's are a Pastel (http://www.sweball.com/aboutenchi.html).

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Why would you claim that they're not compatible if you can't back it up? :confused:

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Well if there is a different Morph being made when it's crossed with the Spider that pretty much backs it up...If it was a "reg."Pastel he would have made a Bumble Bee not a Stinger Bee...

Enchi's look nothing like a Pastel and neither do the Supers...

If you read the Enchi story at sweball he constantly states how it differs from "reg." Pastels...So what does that tell me...It's not a Pastel...

Only time will tell for sure, but I bet I'm right...Jon

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

Well if there is a different Morph being made when it's crossed with the Spider that pretty much backs it up...If it was a "reg."Pastel he would have made a Bumble Bee not a Stinger Bee...

Enchi's look nothing like a Pastel and neither do the Supers...

If you read the Enchi story at sweball he constantly states how it differs from "reg." Pastels...So what does that tell me...It's not a Pastel...

Only time will tell for sure, but I bet I'm right...Jon

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That may be true, but without definitive proof you should have worded your comment with a "probably" instead of just "not compatible", then state the reasons why you believe they're different. :2cent:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

That may be true, but without definitive proof you should have worded your comment with a "probably" instead of just "not compatible", then state the reasons why you believe they're different. :2cent:

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True. But I imagine the poster was told as much by a "reputable breeder" and simply assumed he/she wasn't making it up. I assume many of us would do the same if Adam were saying something, or Mendel was commenting on genetics issue.

Right now the BP market is just getting to the point where ignorance and naivety is going to play a major role. And the best thing we can do is correct it :D. With lots of dancing carrots.

:carrot::carrot:

Testing compatibility in co-dominants is tricky. Take the white snake complex. Distinctly different looking animals from lessers to Vin Russo high lemon yellows can apparently be crossed to make a super white snake. The test is the next generation when the cross line white snake breeds to a normal. As far as I know they have always produced 50/50 splits of the two lines and no normals and no white snakes. This indicates that the two lines where likely alleles - different mutations of the same gene. It's possible they are just very near loci and a crossover could eventually happen between them but most likely given the "super" combination that they are alleles.

However, when pastel jungle and cinnamon pastel where crossed and produced the super looking pewter subsequent breedings proved they where two different genes. We now have animals like silver bullets having more than two copies of the two genes combined. This would not be possible in a situation where a single gene with multiple mutant variations was involved. You should not be able to produce a mojave + Vin Russo + lesser because there is only room for two copies of any one gene.

So IMHO the test for enchi compatibility will not be just to produce a super looking combination with pastel. Even if they are separate genes when you cross a regular pastel with an enchi pastel you would expect to get 25% normals, 25% regular pastel only, 25% enchi pastel only, and 25% both genes combined. The cumulative effect of both genes combined might look super without them being the same gene. The test if they are different versions of the same gene will then be if the super is bred to a normal and produces only 50/50 regular pastel and enchi pastel with no normals and no supers. If they are different genes, then the super could produce 25% normals and 25% supers along with the two parent types. Again, there is the possibility of linkage if they are two separate genes on the same chromosome complicating these results.

All this assumes that they aren't the same version of the same gene which may well be the case with some of the named pastel lines. In some cases, line breeding may have isolated multiple other genes that make a family resemblance like extremely bright or faded but the exact same pastel gene is seen in that line as other lines. If the enchi looks consistently different you would expect that even at that first step when you cross with another pastel line you could continue to pick out the two different lines in the offspring indicating that there may well be a different version of the pastel gene involved.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

So IMHO the test for enchi compatibility will not be just to produce a super looking combination with pastel. Even if they are separate genes when you cross a regular pastel with an enchi pastel you would expect to get 25% normals, 25% regular pastel only, 25% enchi pastel only, and 25% both genes combined. The cumulative effect of both genes combined might look super without them being the same gene.

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I agree to an extent. Like I said earlier, a single breeding season isn't going to be enough to prove anything. That said, anyone with an eye for Pastels will readily see the differences between an Enchi and a Graziani. The head pattern, the tounge color etc. So a 25% Graziani, 25% Enchi offspring would be noticable to an experienced breeder.

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If the enchi looks consistently different you would expect that even at that first step when you cross with another pastel line you could continue to pick out the two different lines in the offspring indicating that there may well be a different version of the pastel gene involved.

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How do you define "consistently different". The Enchi certainly looks similar to the other pastel lines, and the Super Enchi looks similar to other Super Pastels. Granted, crossing an Enchi with another morph does look "different" than a Pastel with the same cross, but that doesn't remove doubt. See my Cinny and Black example.

Heres a good side by side of the difference between the Jungle and the Enchi

One of my male Jungles

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...astelmale4.jpg


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...astelmale2.jpg

and an Enchi (photo is from proexotics.com)

http://www.proexotics.com/pricelist_...2_06_enchi.jpg
I hope this will let people see the difference between them visualy.

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How do you define "consistently different".

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What I was trying to get across was the idea that they appear to be two discretely different morphs. From pure lines does the lest enchi like enchi pastel look different than the most enchi like regular pastel? Still, when we are talking about appearances it doesn't mean much. There could be two different mutations that just happened to look the same to our eyes just as easily as there could be variations of the same mutation that looked like two different ones. It’s hard to eliminate possibilities without lots of breeding results.

The way I see it here are the possibilities and the breeding tests to narrow them down:

1. Pastel Jungle and Enchi Pastel are the SAME mutation of the SAME gene. In this scenario the differences in appearance are family resemblance due to other genes in each line. Have enchi's been outbred to normals much and still retained the same distinctive look? If so, that would tend to go against this scenario. Crossing the two lines together and being able to clearly pick out which babies where regular pastel and which where enchi pastel without intergrades that could be counted either way would also help but probably not the best test as there could be a single extra gene causing the family resemblance. The outbreeding test is probably a better one for this scenario.

2. Pastel Jungle and Enchi Pastel are DIFFERENT mutations of the SAME gene (a multiple mutant allele situation). The best test for this I can think of is to produce the apparent super and breed it to a bunch of normals. If the babies are all either pastel jungle or enchi pastel (about a 50/50 split) with no normals and no supers and they are easily divisible into the two types then this seems the most likely explanation. However, as pointed out, linking of different genes by being close together on the same chromosome could also look like this.

3. Pastel Jungle and Enchi Pastel are DIFFERENT mutations of DIFFERENT genes. If this is the case, then if they do produce a super looking animal due to the combined effect when crossed that "super" will produce some normals when bred to a normal. About 25% of the babies will not get either gene, and 25% will get both. Neither of these are possible in scenarios 1 or 2.

I took a bashing in this thread...Just to be right in the end...

jhall1468 You around? Still think I'm Ignorant and Naive?

Enchi and Enchi Combo links:

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...d=54&Itemid=63

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...d=53&Itemid=63

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...=528&Itemid=58

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...=538&Itemid=58

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...=174&Itemid=58

The Enchi and its combos certainly look distinctive but for me the jury will still be out until we have breeding results from the combos like the Enchi Lemon Pastel and the Enchi Bumblebee. Will they be capable of producing normals or will all the babies be either pastel or Enchi and none both (assuming bred to a normal for both pastel and Enchi)?

Wow this thread is old...