African Soft Fur (Rat Family)

I recently obtained a male african soft fur male and will be getting a female when a friends female drops another litter.

I was wondering why most major breeder are not breeding them and using them as food?

Why does every raise the big (normal) rats and hope they can keep the weanlings the size needed to feed off?

Is it bad to raise bp's (and other snakes) with ASF then turn around and sell them to someone who does not have access to them?

I mainly want to understand why ASF aren't higher in demand and more breeders using them? I personally would love to raise and breed them for food due to the fact there max size if perfect for a bps entire life... can we get a pro/con thing going or something?

I agree, What is the deal with these guys.....Do they have large litters?....I'd love to know...any possibly start a little breeding project!!

Well, here's how I see it....from my rather limited point of view...

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I was wondering why most major breeder are not breeding them and using them as food?

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Because standard rats are far more easily obtained and breed in far more prolific numbers. Also...breeders are breeding in order to sell their animals to the general public. If an "imprint" feeder like a BP has been raised on a very specific and hard-to-get (quite impossible to get for most!) rodent...how likely is it they will sell those animals?

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Is it bad to raise bp's (and other snakes) with ASF then turn around and sell them to someone who does not have access to them?

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I would say so! Bad for both the customer AND the animals involved. How sad would it be for a beginner to buy a beautiful little BP and have done all their research and have the enclosure set up properly and still have it refuse to eat? Would the new owner even know why??? And how sad for the snake to slowly starve for lack of "proper" food?

That's not to say it's entirely impossible to switch a BP from one to another...buy why should the customer have to take that risk and put both themselves and the animal through that much stress and aggrivation? (And still face the risk of starvation in the end?)

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Why does every raise the big (normal) rats and hope they can keep the weanlings the size needed to feed off?

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For all the reasons I stated above.

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Originally Posted by JLC

Well, here's how I see it....from my rather limited point of view...




Because standard rats are far more easily obtained and breed in far more prolific numbers. Also...breeders are breeding in order to sell their animals to the general public. If an "imprint" feeder like a BP has been raised on a very specific and hard-to-get (quite impossible to get for most!) rodent...how likely is it they will sell those animals?



I would say so! Bad for both the customer AND the animals involved. How sad would it be for a beginner to buy a beautiful little BP and have done all their research and have the enclosure set up properly and still have it refuse to eat? Would the new owner even know why??? And how sad for the snake to slowly starve for lack of "proper" food?

That's not to say it's entirely impossible to switch a BP from one to another...buy why should the customer have to take that risk and put both themselves and the animal through that much stress and aggrivation? (And still face the risk of starvation in the end?)



For all the reasons I stated above.

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Well then due to they are perfect size for feeding bp's why wouldn't a breeder raise there "keepers" on ASF and raise the hatchlings to mice that they would like to sell? That way no one would ever need those BIG rats! Just confuses me..

Would I be wrong to raise all my future breeders on AFS and all of ther offspring on mice? (the ones I want to sell)

EDIT: CRAP! can you fix my first post pleases Judy? I meant for it to say "aren't high in demand" and also change AFS to ASF.

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Originally Posted by Kilo

Well then due to they are perfect size for feeding bp's why wouldn't a breeder raise there "keepers" on ASF and raise the hatchlings to mice that they would like to sell? That way no one would ever need those BIG rats! Just confuses me..

Would I be wrong to raise all my future breeders on AFS and all of ther offspring on mice? (the ones I want to sell)

EDIT: CRAP! can you fix my first post pleases Judy? I meant for it to say "aren't high in demand" and also change AFS to ASF.

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I suppose if you're sure you'd never want to sell your breeders. It's up to you what you want to feed them. I don't know enough about these rodents to argue logistics such as what litter sizes (although I do believe they are much smaller per litter than rats) they have and how easy they are to raise. But it still seems to me like rats are far more convenient than either specialized rodents OR mice.

How long do ASF's take to get to 50 grams?

From birth to 50 grams my rats take 3.5-4 weeks.

That would be my main guess, if it takes the ASF's longer to get to adult size?

That they grow too big too fast can be annoying, but thats what gas + freeze is for.

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Originally Posted by JLC

I suppose if you're sure you'd never want to sell your breeders. It's up to you what you want to feed them. I don't know enough about these rodents to argue logistics such as what litter sizes (although I do believe they are much smaller per litter than rats) they have and how easy they are to raise. But it still seems to me like rats are far more convenient than either specialized rodents OR mice.

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ASF are spreading around though... I just saw a thread started by "Wild Bill" who is picking up 10 trios and a couple other post fomr people looking to get some from him. Do you think that ASF have the potential to push regular rats out of the picture when it comes to feeding and that snakes will sold as ASF eaters?

Anyone else care to join in and share there opinion... please do so!

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Originally Posted by Kilo

Do you think that ASF have the potential to push regular rats out of the picture when it comes to feeding and that snakes will sold as ASF eaters?

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Personally...I seriously doubt it. It's a fad. Just because a few individuals that you see in a very tiny subset of the population are interested in these rodents doesn't mean there's an overwhelming tidal-wave of "ASF" about to change the BP market.

Perhaps a few dozen people will try them out and see how it goes. A handful of people deal in imported wild caughts and find ASF easier to feed than standard rodents. But hundreds of thousands of people buy normal ball pythons and want to feed them food they can find on any given day at the pet store.

Granted, this is just my personal perspective on the matter. I'm by no means an expert either on the market nor on these rodents. But for me and my snakes...we'll stick to rats and mice. ;)

African soft fur rats are steadily becoming more available. With that, the price is dropping very quickly ($10/trio). It won't be long before they are the same price as regular mice and rats. From what I have read and asked of breeders, their litter size is comparable to that of standard rats. I believe in the future most rodent breeders will also carry ASF. I'm not sure on how fast they reach adult size, but I do know breeder sets will consume a lot less food than a breeding set of large rats. The benefit that they will never outgrow food size for my ball pythons is just a plus for me. I don't plan on switching all my snakes to these, right now just going to give them a try. I have talked to a couple of bp breeders that have tryed ASF rats and have had great success with them and are considering switching more animals to them. Most will keep regular rats and mice to feed to babies that will be sold.

Do you think that these ASF will be available at pet shops soon?....otherwise, how do you acquire them (i think that live rodent shipping is illegal?)

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Originally Posted by monk90222

Do you think that these ASF will be available at pet shops soon?....otherwise, how do you acquire them (i think that live rodent shipping is illegal?)

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I think pet stores will probably be one of the last places to get them. Most of the pet stores around here (even large chains) order thair rats in from large breeders. Until they have a market for them, they will not carry them. The prices are still too high for pet shops to get them and resell them at a higher price. On the east coast, ASF rats are abundant. When you get to the Mississippi river they tend to get harder to find. But they are spreading their way out to the rest of the country. It's only a matter of time before they are everywhere. Heck, they even have a forum dedicated to them. ;)

I have several adults, and I'm having trouble getting mine to breed. HOWEVER, having spoken to the rest of the people with them, they do have large litter size, smaller adult animal, and the smell is less. I've offered mine up for sale or trade on numerous occasions, and anyone around that wanted any already had some.
And shipping live rodents isn't illegil, just complex and expensive.
I got the Mazuri diet today, so we'll see if the litter size on mine increases.
And I've fed numerous of my bp's ASF and then offered the reg rats, and they switch back and forth or back to rats or whichever with no difficulty to me.
Wolfy

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

IOn the east coast, ASF rats are abundant.

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I am on the east coast!! ..Please, point me in the right direction!!

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Originally Posted by monk90222

I am on the east coast!! ..Please, point me in the right direction!!

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I will do some searching, I know I have seen them on KS before.

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Originally Posted by monk90222

I am on the east coast!! ..Please, point me in the right direction!!

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Do you go to the Hamburg show?

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

Do you go to the Hamburg show?

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If you do, here is a message a guy left me on another forum with his email.

"So just email me if you want to or if you don't find any by the time you need to. I know we are unloading a lot of them at hamburg to some people in february if we go but rats multiply so fast lol. My email is John@proherps.com"

His profile says his name is John Reiger.

Thanks for the info!! I haven't been to the Hamburg show as of yet, but I do want to go...If there is one in Feb....

Couple observations from my end. My asf's are producing like no tomorrow. This species is "built" for large litters reaching into the 20's easily under the right conditions. They don't smell anywhere near rats or mice...you don't have to add vanilla or some other additive to keep their smell down. The size of adults are darn near perfect for BP's, and for those monster BP's feeding 2-3 will be plenty. Mine so far have very fast maturity and size/weight gain rate. I am feeding all my balls on these now and with exception of one female who just won't eat. Every other ball has improved rate of consistent feeding.

I couldn't be happier with the changeover, my snakes are eating better and gaining weight faster than ever before. This is no "fad" at least not for me and my "keepers". I think there is more of an interest for these rats than some want to believe. As said above with the numbers these babies can crank out in a litter they are spreading VERY quickly between reptile keepers. I look at the nay sayer's comments similarly to the way people in the early days(insert your starting time period here) of reptile keeping would look at the current methods used now. Its something different and some are just afraid of change. There is no reason not to accept asf's as an alternative food source for some reptiles. They will only become more and more readily available as people take the "risk" of trying them.

I get people asking about them all the time and where can they get them from, heck I even have people calling me out of the blue wanting to buy or wanting info. This is the reason I started a website where breeders can let others know what they have and to what areas they will sell to...the desire for them is out there and it is growing!

Well, I'll tell ya this....I would certainly LIKE to be proven wrong on this. I don't mind waiting and watching to see how things play out over the next few years. ;)

How many grams do adult size ones get?

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

How many grams do adult size ones get?

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60-70 grams

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Originally Posted by Kilo

Why does every raise the big (normal) rats and hope they can keep the weanlings the size needed to feed off?

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Because us boa keepers need the retired breeders to keep our fat boas happy!

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Originally Posted by monk90222

I am on the east coast!! ..Please, point me in the right direction!!

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You need to come down to South Jersey, (the 51st State:) ). I bought 2 trios for $5 a trio back in December and my all 4 of my females are about to have their second litter.

I don't think these are a fad, I could see them replacing the larger rats in that they are much easier to raise and take up much less room. I would say by mid-summer you will see them at the shows for pretty cheap and a few frozen ones also. I can say that mine are not the type you take out and play with as they tend to defend themselves pretty well and they can jump!

I have not fed any to my snakes yet. I only got a few males out of my first litters.

And yes, they do smell less!:sunny:

I researched these rats online a bit before I got them. If I recall correctly, they have like 10 nipples which is the most amount of nipples in the rodent family. Common logic would tell me that that many nipples would accomodate for larger litters. I hear they are quite the nuisance in parts of africa as well.

My first litter was 12...not bad for a first litter...She didn't even eat any of them....

And talk about defending the babies... I can't even do cage maintenance (water bottle changings, feeding, cleaning) without being attacked by the parents. I don't see these animals becoming pets. They tend to nip and not sit still, they can really jump too. Imagine me cleaning out my 10 gallon, my cat and dogs watching intently, and then one rat jumps out of my "holding" bucket with a screen lid on top.....then the poor scared rat running across the room followed closely by the cat and then the two dogs, and then me....sigh. I have limited space at the moment but soon rat cleaning days will be in another room all together.

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Originally Posted by Wolfsnaps

I researched these rats online a bit before I got them. If I recall correctly, they have like 10 nipples which is the most amount of nipples in the rodent family. Common logic would tell me that that many nipples would accomodate for larger litters. I hear they are quite the nuisance in parts of africa as well.

My first litter was 12...not bad for a first litter...She didn't even eat any of them....

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Standard rats have 12 nipples.... My rats have about 15 babies per litter

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Originally Posted by Wolfsnaps

And talk about defending the babies... I can't even do cage maintenance (water bottle changings, feeding, cleaning) without being attacked by the parents. I don't see these animals becoming pets. They tend to nip and not sit still, they can really jump too. Imagine me cleaning out my 10 gallon, my cat and dogs watching intently, and then one rat jumps out of my "holding" bucket with a screen lid on top.....then the poor scared rat running across the room followed closely by the cat and then the two dogs, and then me....sigh. I have limited space at the moment but soon rat cleaning days will be in another room all together.

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That's what concerns me - these are reported to be more nippy and defensive than your standard rat - I'd be concerned that they'd be more likely to bite than a rat pup of the same size.

Multimammate Rats are so-called because the females possess a superfluity of teats, more than any other rodent. (Multimammate = Latin, meaning literally "many-breasted".)

Ill repost with the website

http://www.jirds.cwc.net/rag/profiles/nmmr.htm

I'm just saying, all "normal" rats (what most of us commonly breed) have 12 teats. It did say that it was uncommon in smaller rodents, so it must have been in comparison to mice (I'm unaware of how many teats they have).

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

60-70 grams

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They get a little bigger than that...
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...1/DSCN0183.jpg

Well, all I know for sure is that my rat had a nice healthy litter of 12 which surprised me...for one, I didn't realize she was pregnant (and I am usually very observant) and for 2, 12 for a first litter...But no, I never sat down and counted teats, I don't think they would appreciate that very much :)

are they so great to a snake that they wouldnt want to go back to regular rats/mice? why would it be so bad for a snake to switch to regular if it was bought as a ASF feeder?

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Originally Posted by Wolfsnaps

Well, all I know for sure is that my rat had a nice healthy litter of 12 which surprised me...for one, I didn't realize she was pregnant (and I am usually very observant) and for 2, 12 for a first litter...But no, I never sat down and counted teats, I don't think they would appreciate that very much :)

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Was that unusual for you with regular rats? Mine have at least 12, even with their first litters, but often more than that.

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Originally Posted by BaLLPAddICT

are they so great to a snake that they wouldnt want to go back to regular rats/mice? why would it be so bad for a snake to switch to regular if it was bought as a ASF feeder?

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Before someone jumps to an answer they probably don't really know the answer to I'll make a statement to this. Weather or not an individual animal will go from one prey item to another is entirely dependent on the animal itself. We all know BP's *can* be picky but this does not mean that once you start feeding ASF's that you could not change back to mice or domestic rats. Some may not, some may. I am feeding my personal animals all on ASF's now but while i was transitioning I had no issues with domestic rodents being accepted even after they had taken ASF's. This does not mean it works...it means it worked for me, your animals and experience will vary.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I'm just saying, all "normal" rats (what most of us commonly breed) have 12 teats. It did say that it was uncommon in smaller rodents, so it must have been in comparison to mice (I'm unaware of how many teats they have).

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Sorry to bring up an old thread, but just to clarify on the whole ASR teats issue. Normal rats usually have 12 teats, where as ASF's will have anywhere from 8-12 pairs of teats. So anywhere from 18-24 teats. Even as many as 16-18 pairs of teats have been seen in some females.

Ill add on to this one a bit too...ive Never seen an asf eater switch back to mice...and ive never seen an ASF eater that wont take regular rats

I LOVE feeding ASFs to my babies hatchlings grow nice and fast and always switch to normal rats when htey get to size but the problem with using them as feeders for adults is that they take a LONG time to get big enuff to use as food for adult Bps

Why do snake owners feed regular rats? Because their are cheap, highly available in live or frozen, very intelligetent, and it does take time to switch animals from prey items.

Some times regular rats are hard to find, more so, the ASF are almost non-existant. If the number of ASF breeders and wholesalers was just as high as regular rats, I see no reason why they would not be used just as much.

Besides the whole over protective of young issue.

I have chosen ASF's because they don't get "too big" for my balls (unlike rats)

I am breeding my own, so supply is not an issue. Also, their natural smell is nothing compared to my mouse and rat breeders.

In my opinion, they are the best thing since sliced bread!


Mike

I've had my ASFs for a little while now and I absolutely love them! Both of my problem eater balls are back on track 100% with these rodents. One of them will even take the regular rats every time now. I haven't tried regular rats with the other ball yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if the ASFs help jump start a sporatic eater into taking the regular rats again. I have real mixed feelings about ball pythons being imprint feeders. I think it has a lot more to do with an individual snake, not a whole species. The biggest con I find with the ASFs is that it takes quite a while to grow the babies up into decent sized meals. But I am glad that they will never outgrow feeder size for my adult balls.

Hi,

Do you think they might work well to kickstart fussy eaters if kept frozen but used to scent regular rats?

I was wondering if it might be worthwhile tracking one down for this purpose.


dr del

I am getting my first trio this weekend. My biggest reason is size. All but 3 of my snakes are not big enough to eat med to large rats. So my rats grow so fast that they actually grow out of what I have avl to feed. I am hoping that I can fix this. I have not only b/p's but corns as well.

I am excited. I hope they do well. LOL I was just fixing up their cage. Since they can chew I got a nice wire 1/4 x 1/4 mesh lined my cage, put a feeder in and wala I hope they like their new digs.

I've had BPs that hadn't eaten in 4-5 months after I had bought them (change of environment) when I'd tried everything...then I fed them some dead ASFs and they both went mental. It was like these snakes were possessed. I then gave them a mouse, then a rat and now they're both eating regular rats.

I also had a couple of babies that I was assist feeding. Wouldn't take mice or rats. I had a couple of females ASFs give birth so I threw one in to each of the BPs bins...and bam they took them. They wouldn't take anything but ASFs for about 5 meals and then they switched over to rats.

I have a theory about BPs who haven't eaten for a while...you're going to laugh at me....

Remember when you were young...was there a time when you felt really sick to your stomach because you hadn't eaten in a while? You felt sick because you hadn't eaten but eating was the last thing you wanted to do...then your parents forced "forced" you to eat something that you really liked, had a bit of it, got your appetite back...

I know it's a stretch....I think I think too much. :-)

Denis
DenJenn Reptiles
www.pythonregius.ca

I breed rats. I would love to breed the ASFs because they are cleaner (smaller feces.. they tended to not need cleaning as often as my regular rats.) Also they would never outgrow my snakes. Problem was, I got three females, but then could not find males anywhere, so I fed them off. I would Love to get into ASFs but I can't find any!

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I breed rats. I would love to breed the ASFs because they are cleaner (smaller feces.. they tended to not need cleaning as often as my regular rats.) Also they would never outgrow my snakes. Problem was, I got three females, but then could not find males anywhere, so I fed them off. I would Love to get into ASFs but I can't find any!

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Jen- do you ever make it to southern NY state?....if so I could meet you with all the male ASF's you want....lol