Plastic tubs and heat

My first big question!

Until yesterday we weren't certain what size snake (i.e., hatchling, adult, or something in between) we were going to start with, so we didn't have all our materials together yet. So for heat, having read that it was an acceptable short-term solution, we were using a heating pad under the warm side of the cage. Now we want to replace it with a more permanent solution.

But the Repti-Therm UTH available at Pet Smart says it is for use with *glass* tanks ONLY. It specifically says NOT to use it with plastic.

So, what to use? We're also thinking we'll add a ceramic heating unit, as the ambient room temp is around 75 degrees in winter and we are having trouble keeping the tank warm enough.

But we still need belly heat... so can ya'll explain what you use to provide belly heat in a plastic tub? Thanks so much!! And, by the way, a quick answer would be MUCH appreciated--PetSmart closes in an hour and a half and we really want to have him warm warm warm tonight!

Thank you so much,

Heather

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Originally Posted by heatherhead42

My first big question!
Until yesterday we weren't certain what size snake (i.e., hatchling, adult, or something in between) we were going to start with, so we didn't have all our materials together yet. So for heat, having read that it was an acceptable short-term solution, we were using a heating pad under the warm side of the cage. Now we want to replace it with a more permanent solution.
But the Repti-Therm UTH available at Pet Smart says it is for use with *glass* tanks ONLY. It specifically says NOT to use it with plastic.
So, what to use? We're also thinking we'll add a ceramic heating unit, as the ambient room temp is around 75 degrees in winter and we are having trouble keeping the tank warm enough.
But we still need belly heat... so can ya'll explain what you use to provide belly heat in a plastic tub? Thanks so much!! And, by the way, a quick answer would be MUCH appreciated--PetSmart closes in an hour and a half and we really want to have him warm warm warm tonight!
Thank you so much,
Heather

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With any heating device regardless of the enclosure you need a thermostat to prevent the UTH from over-heating.

UTH you can use are Ultratherm or T-Rex Cobra Heat Mat the advantage they do not stick permanently to the enclosure like some others. (More convenient for cleaning)

Most people however use Flexwatt Heat tape that you wire yourself or can order pre-wired.

Now for the cool side it will depend on your ambient temp which can be tricky if it a low temps. Many people use a space heater in the room where they reptiles are kept. The other option is to have an additional heat source with a second thermostat set to achieve a temp of 80-84 on the cool side.

Thank you!

I misunderstood--I thought heat tape and UTH were the same thing. I need to read up more on the distinction.

So we need to order some heat tape with a thermostat (right? Or do I not need a thermostat with heat tape?).

In the meantime, what we've done is purchase a CHE and are carefully monitoring temps (we'll probably set an alarm and get up a couple times during the night, too) to see if we can get the ambient temp right at least. We've also left the heating pad (the sort used for people, which is a temporary band-aid solution) under the tank (on the warm side) for now--is this a bad idea, without a thermostat?

We knew we weren't completely set up yet, but we thought we were close enough to start. Now I see it would have been better to wait and test the set-up for a while before bringing Sammy home. :( We are learning, though, and I seriously appreciate the advice and help.

Thank you.

Heather

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Originally Posted by heatherhead42

Thank you!
I misunderstood--I thought heat tape and UTH were the same thing. I need to read up more on the distinction.
So we need to order some heat tape with a thermostat (right? Or do I not need a thermostat with heat tape?).
In the meantime, what we've done is purchase a CHE and are carefully monitoring temps (we'll probably set an alarm and get up a couple times during the night, too) to see if we can get the ambient temp right at least. We've also left the heating pad (the sort used for people, which is a temporary band-aid solution) under the tank (on the warm side) for now--is this a bad idea, without a thermostat?
We knew we weren't completely set up yet, but we thought we were close enough to start. Now I see it would have been better to wait and test the set-up for a while before bringing Sammy home. :( We are learning, though, and I seriously appreciate the advice and help.
Thank you.
Heather

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You will need a thermostat regardless of the heating device you will chose, this is the only way to maintain proper temp and avoid over-heating that could burn your BP

Here is a place where you can order thermostat and Flexwatt http://www.reptilebasics.com/store/home.php?cat=250
They will pre-wire the flexwatt if you want to or you can order it and wire it yourself.
Human heat pad are not designed to run 24/7 or designed for the use with reptiles I would be concerned that the temp could get pretty high.

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Originally Posted by heatherhead42

My first big question!

Until yesterday we weren't certain what size snake (i.e., hatchling, adult, or something in between) we were going to start with, so we didn't have all our materials together yet. So for heat, having read that it was an acceptable short-term solution, we were using a heating pad under the warm side of the cage. Now we want to replace it with a more permanent solution.

But the Repti-Therm UTH available at Pet Smart says it is for use with *glass* tanks ONLY. It specifically says NOT to use it with plastic.

So, what to use? We're also thinking we'll add a ceramic heating unit, as the ambient room temp is around 75 degrees in winter and we are having trouble keeping the tank warm enough.

But we still need belly heat... so can ya'll explain what you use to provide belly heat in a plastic tub? Thanks so much!! And, by the way, a quick answer would be MUCH appreciated--PetSmart closes in an hour and a half and we really want to have him warm warm warm tonight!

Thank you so much,

Heather

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I would use flexwatt with a thermostat. The thermostat is a bit pricey, but is well worth the price and is neccessary if you want a snake. The flexwatt is heat tape, which is like a heating pad, but cheaper and thinner. It's usually used for racks, but you can use it for a single enclosure too.

Okey dokey. I'm on Reptile Basics now figuring out my order. I am totally in favor of doing what needs to be done to keep dh's little guy healthy and happy. But this raises a question in my mind--why are people so concerned about the cost of the *snake* when the set-up is going to cost them several times the average cost of the snake itself? :rolleyes:

Okay. So, I need: a thermostat. I'm looking at the Helix DBS 1000 Proportional at $129.99. Is that what I need by way of thermostat? Can it be used for more than one heating device set to the same temp? If we have only one snake and otherwise good conditions, does Sammy really need the expensive model or would we be okay with the $75 Jackson model? How much of a difference does it make in the snake's quality of life?

Heat tape. For a 3 foot long, 1 1/2 foot wide, 2 foot tall Rubbermaid type enclosure, will I need more than a foot of the 3" tape? Should I order two feet to be on the safe side? Or do I need more than that?

And a wire/clip/insulator set. Just one? Will I need to lay the heat tape in several parallel strips, and will this require an extra set or two?

Is that it?

I'm sorry for these total newbie questions. I thought we had done our research really well and we were all set to go. Ugh. I hate being unprepared. But I really appreciate the hand-holding.

Heather

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Originally Posted by heatherhead42

Okey dokey. I'm on Reptile Basics now figuring out my order. I am totally in favor of doing what needs to be done to keep dh's little guy healthy and happy. But this raises a question in my mind--why are people so concerned about the cost of the *snake* when the set-up is going to cost them several times the average cost of the snake itself? :rolleyes:

Okay. So, I need: a thermostat. I'm looking at the Helix DBS 1000 Proportional at $129.99. Is that what I need by way of thermostat? Can it be used for more than one heating device set to the same temp? If we have only one snake and otherwise good conditions, does Sammy really need the expensive model or would we be okay with the $75 Jackson model? How much of a difference does it make in the snake's quality of life?

Heat tape. For a 3 foot long, 1 1/2 foot wide, 2 foot tall Rubbermaid type enclosure, will I need more than a foot of the 3" tape? Should I order two feet to be on the safe side? Or do I need more than that?

And a wire/clip/insulator set. Just one? Will I need to lay the heat tape in several parallel strips, and will this require an extra set or two?

Is that it?

I'm sorry for these total newbie questions. I thought we had done our research really well and we were all set to go. Ugh. I hate being unprepared. But I really appreciate the hand-holding.

Heather

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You only need one wire/clip/insulator set, because you only need one foot of 11" heat tape. If you want Rich to wire it for you, he will do it at no charge! I use a Ranco, which is only 75 dollars. Not expensive, yet it works to perfection.

Well when it comes to normal BP yes the overall cost of the enclosure will be more then the BP, now if you have some morphs trust me the enclosure cost is nothing.

The Johnson or the Ranco will do, just keep in mind that they are not proportional and come on and off which make the temp fluctuates a little, and the more expensive ones that are proportional keep the temps constant.

Many people use Ranco and Johnson and it will be fine for your BP and if you add more BP you will be able to control the Heat Tape of other enclosure with the same thermostat.

For the heat tape I wood order 1 foot of 11 inches heat tape oh and your Tub not sure if you already bought it does not need to be that high an adult can feet in a tub no higher then 6 inches matter of fact the rest would a waste that could make it harder to control.

You can keep a BP in a tub with the following measurements

Baby – 15 Quarts (17"L x 11 1/8"W x 6 3/8"H)\
Sub Adult – 32 Quarts (23 1/2"L x 16 1/4"W x 6 3/8"H)
Adult – 41 Quarts (34 3/4"L x 16 1/2"W x 6"H)

Keep in mind that an enclosure that is too big will stress your BP

With one enclosure you will need one piece of heat tape and 2 clips and one cord you can ask to have it wire I believe at no extra charge.

Yeah, I know the morphs can be thousands of dollars. I just meant people who think $100 is an unreasonable price for a snake, or who ask if anyone knows if they can get a snake for $35 or something. It's just kind of funny. Well, and sad, when it's folks looking for "free" snakes. As though a pet is ever free.

Okay, so 1 foot of 11" heat tape, one set of clips etc., and one thermostat. I think we're going with the proportional after all--dh figures we won't be sorry, and it's not that much extra if considered over the life of the snake. And if we get more snakes at some point, we'll already be set up on the thermostat (it can also be used to regulate more than one set of heat tape, right?).

Thanks for the help. I know the enclosure doesn't need to be that high, but yes it is what we have already, and for a variety of other reasons, we prefer the height, so we're going to try to make it work. If we continue to have problems, we'll consider a different enclosure.

Thanks again, and I'll keep you posted. And probably ask more questions! :P

Oh, by the way, I noticed that the care sheet on this site for ball pythons suggests a few things that have been described as unsuitable in this thread. For instance, it suggests that heat pads designed for humans have been used "with great success" by a "large number" of keepers. It also suggests using a thermostat, but puts it much more mildly, suggesting that you need a thermostat "IF you find it difficult to maintain temperatures adequately" (emphasis mine).

I'm not pointing this out to be difficult, and I understand there can be a wide range of opinion on any topic. But I thought I'd mention it because it does seem, in light of the suggestions in this thread, somewhat... confusing.

Anyway, thank you again very, very much for the help. Thank you.

Heather

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Originally Posted by heatherhead42

Yeah, I know the morphs can be thousands of dollars. I just meant people who think $100 is an unreasonable price for a snake, or who ask if anyone knows if they can get a snake for $35 or something. It's just kind of funny. Well, and sad, when it's folks looking for "free" snakes. As though a pet is ever free.

Okay, so 1 foot of 11" heat tape, one set of clips etc., and one thermostat. I think we're going with the proportional after all--dh figures we won't be sorry, and it's not that much extra if considered over the life of the snake. And if we get more snakes at some point, we'll already be set up on the thermostat (it can also be used to regulate more than one set of heat tape, right?).

Thanks for the help. I know the enclosure doesn't need to be that high, but yes it is what we have already, and for a variety of other reasons, we prefer the height, so we're going to try to make it work. If we continue to have problems, we'll consider a different enclosure.

Thanks again, and I'll keep you posted. And probably ask more questions! :P

Oh, by the way, I noticed that the care sheet on this site for ball pythons suggests a few things that have been described as unsuitable in this thread. For instance, it suggests that heat pads designed for humans have been used "with great success" by a "large number" of keepers. It also suggests using a thermostat, but puts it much more mildly, suggesting that you need a thermostat "IF you find it difficult to maintain temperatures adequately" (emphasis mine).

I'm not pointing this out to be difficult, and I understand there can be a wide range of opinion on any topic. But I thought I'd mention it because it does seem, in light of the suggestions in this thread, somewhat... confusing.

Anyway, thank you again very, very much for the help. Thank you.

Heather

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The care sheet is a good guide, but it was made a little while ago and things that were considered "ok" then, might not be the best thing now. Those heat pads are not made to run for 24/7 and you could risk the life of your snake.

Gotcha. That makes sense. That's what I love about forums--always up to date. Thank you so much!

Anyway, the order is placed. We should have everything much more suitable soon.

Thank you again for holding my hand through this. I'm sure I'll be needing much more hand-holding soon, but this is a good start. :) Thanks.

Heather

if you get an Exoterra UTH and a dimmer, it will not melt your plastic. I've had mine on there for a long time with no worries. they are also sold at petsmart.

Thank you! I just placed my order though :P for heat tape. It's good to know for future reference though--what does the dimmer do?

Thanks!

well it can be used to adjust the temperatures, like a thermostat, but a lot less precise. It takes a lot of tinkering, but it works out if you take the time to adjust it.

I would just cut to the case, and get some Flexwatt. I currently have the ZM heatpads and rheostats, and while they work fine, I do plan on going Flex in the next few months. FW is thinner and will fit under my tubs in the rack better.. of course, make sure to research it all and ask questions from the experienced FW users, as you do need a quality thermostat with it.

Thanks, Genevive. Yes, we've ordered the flex watt and the Helix DBS1000 from Reptile Basics. So we should be set up pretty nicely here in the next few days.

Just moved the sensor for the cool-side thermometer so that it is right outside the cool-side hide Sammy is in and--ta-da, 81.7 degrees. So, that's just about right, right?

Don't worry--we'll continue to monitor it frequently until our permanent set-up arrives. Thanks again for the help! We're learning...

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Originally Posted by heatherhead42

Thanks, Genevive. Yes, we've ordered the flex watt and the Helix DBS1000 from Reptile Basics. So we should be set up pretty nicely here in the next few days.

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Helix is one of the best. You won't be disappointed and will get many years of use out of it.

You also won't be disappointed with the flexwatt. It gets hotter a lot faster than other heat mats so when setting up an enclosure you won't have to wait all night for it to warm up.

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Originally Posted by heatherhead42

Heat tape. For a 3 foot long, 1 1/2 foot wide, 2 foot tall Rubbermaid type enclosure, will I need more than a foot of the 3" tape? Should I order two feet to be on the safe side? Or do I need more than that?


Heather

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Hey Heather, how committed are you to a 2 foot tall Rubbermaid? 6 inches is really all the height that you need, as the rest would be wasted vertical space.

I use the Sterilite 1986 41 quart tub with one 1' section of 11" flexwatt, one set of clips and for one snake, a Johnson's or Ranco thermostat should be fine (make sure you order that wired as well).

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Hey Heather, how committed are you to a 2 foot tall Rubbermaid? 6 inches is really all the height that you need, as the rest would be wasted vertical space.

I use the Sterilite 1986 41 quart tub with one 1' section of 11" flexwatt, one set of clips and for one snake, a Johnson's or Ranco thermostat should be fine (make sure you order that wired as well).

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1986 is a 40 qt and is about 26 x 18

I think you are referring to the 1860/1960's:)

Sounds like you are measuring your temps but I have not read anything about your humidity level. How's that doing?

About dimmers: so you won't think that you've been jipped into paying 90 dollars more for a thermostat that "does the same thing." Dimmers can be set to only let your heat souce put out a fixed amount of heat. The problem here is if you have temperature fluctuations in your house. If you set your dimmer on a cooler day in your house, then if it gets warmer around summer time, your dimmer won't know that, and it will continue to deliver the same amount of energy to the heat source. The higher ambient temp in your house will cause your heat source to also raise in temperature. Thermostats are "smarter" than dimmers in the way that they are always reading the temperature of your heat source, and will always adjust the energy given to keep the heat source at the temperature you have set it to stay at.

The difference between a Helix or a Ranco/Johnson's is that Helix thermostats are proportional and the latter are an on/off type. Proportional thermostats will give a constant amount of energy to your heat source to keep it at a certain temperature. On/off types do just what the name suggests. They will send energy to your heat source until it reaches the desired temperature, then turn off until it falls to the pre-set limit (usually one degree lower), then turns on again. This leaves more room for temperature fluctuation, but as long as it is pre-set correctly, there shouldn't be a huge difference in fluctuations when compared to a proportional thermostat.

About using one thermostat for multiple strips of heat tape: this is possible as long as the watt ratings are equivalent to each other. You would not want to plug in a 50 watt and 100 watt heat source into the same thermostat.

That all being said, one of the set ups I use is a rack with 4" heat tape controlled by a Helix. I also have an oil-filled area heater to keep ambient room temperatures higher and more constant.

Humidity is an excellent question. Let me go check...

Ugh. It was at 37%. I misted and brought it up to about 60 for now. I don't like the way the humidity is fluctuating, but we're working on that too. As soon as we have our heat set up properly, we can work on getting a sustainable humidity system too. In the mean time, I'm misting every couple hours or so (Carey's at work supporting our family, so I don't mind misting his snake occasionally).

Thanks for all the details on the thermostats, etc. It's all so confusing, but I think it's starting to sink in... We greatly appreciate all the help! Ya'll were a lifesaver last night while Carey was fiddling with all the equipment and I was typing furiously away looking for answers and solutions. :) Thank you.

Heather

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Originally Posted by tmlowe5704

1986 is a 40 qt and is about 26 x 18

I think you are referring to the 1860/1960's:)

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Nope, I use the 1986, http://www.sterilite.com/Category.ht...uctCategory=35#

About humidity, do you have your water bowl set up? Have you made holes in the tub?

Low humidity is a good reason to switch to a shorter tub and/or lose the CHE and find a different way to increase your ambient cool side temps (ie oil-filled space heater).

The cage size question is a good one for Carey (SongOfMyself is his screen name). I'm allowed to help with ancillary services, but he makes all the decisions regarding the snake :P. Hopefully, he'll poke in and respond later. He actually has to work a real job, so he's not "here" as much as I am.

I do appreciate the thoughts on cage size, though. It does seem a shorter enclosure would be easier to maintain temp-wise. Thanks,

Heather

Oh, about the holes and what-not. No, there are very few holes in the tub except the opening for ventilation and heat where the CHE is (about five by five inches square with wire mesh).

I hope once we have heat tape and thermostat that we can do away with the CHE altogether. The room temp is in the upper 70s, so I would think we wouldn't need supplemental heat once we have heat tape. Once we're set up without the CHE, we'll hopefully have better luck with humidity. Still, I'm sure Carey will be giving thought to the tub size.

I've also set up a vaporizer in the room with the door shut. I'm hoping if I can bring the ambient humidity of the room up, it will help with the humidity in the tub. But, really, I think the CHE is the big problem right now, so once we solve that, I hope we'll be in business on humidity.

Reptile Basics, where we ordered our supplies, is not too far from us (an hour or two), so I'm hoping that means our supplies will arrive pronto. Anyone know if they're generally pretty quick about packing and shipping?

Thanks!!

Heather

Reptile Basics rocks and your supplies should arrive shortly.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Nope, I use the 1986, http://www.sterilite.com/Category.ht...ctCategory=35#

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hmm never heard of people using those. is this an adult tub for you or a sub adult/juvie?

I believe that tub is larger than the 1960. I bought one for my Borneo python but she seems to have outgrown it.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

I believe that tub is larger than the 1960. I bought one for my Borneo python but she seems to have outgrown it.

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26 1/8"L x 18 1/4"W x 6 3/8" 1986
34 3/4"L x 16 1/2"W x 6"H 1960

The 1986 is taller and wider, but a good bit shorter length wise

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Originally Posted by heatherhead42

It's just kind of funny. Well, and sad, when it's folks looking for "free" snakes. As though a pet is ever free.

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Very true. And enclosures are expensive even going with a basic aquarium enclosure, much less a rack and a thermostat.

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And if we get more snakes at some point, we'll already be set up on the thermostat (it can also be used to regulate more than one set of heat tape, right?).

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Not that it matters right now, but there are other considerations if you wanted to attach a second enclosure to the t-stat. Wattage, as already mentioned, but also the t-stat has a maximum wattage that it can control and the combined wattage of the heat tape must be in this range (talking several feet). Also the temperatures of each cage and the placement/wattage of the heat tape must be identical from one enclosure to the next, because the Helix has only one probe to measure temp, and if the second cage was warmer, for example: in direct sun, the heat tape would still be adjusted to the cooler temp of the first cage (with the probe) in the shade, and make the second cage much too hot. Hope that makes sense. Be happy you don't have to worry about it right now!

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I know the enclosure doesn't need to be that high, but yes it is what we have already, and for a variety of other reasons, we prefer the height, so we're going to try to make it work.

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There is an argument that can be made for a higher tub- the 6" tall ones do not allow any climbing room, and although balls are not arboreal, they will explore their cages at times and will use any "furniture" available. Some people believe that a larger area with a textured substrate (ie. aspen vs. newspaper) is better for the snake's muscle tone and fitness, and prevent an overweight snake. Not a common issue, but good info IMHO. I like to put branches in for my balls to climb, if I have the space. I am considering a 9" tall tub for my next rack. So don't feel pressured to change tub dimensions as long as you can still get the temps correct.

Sorry that was so long, kudos for taking such good care of your pet's needs!

Thank you SO much for the information on the taller tub. I personally like the look of the higher tub, and I also like to provide lots of "enrichment" for my pets. It's nice to know that Sammy might enjoy climbing, as I think we'll happily provide those opportunities.

I really do think we'll be okay on temps and humidity once we have the thermostat and heat tape and can get rid of the CHE. I think the CHE is our main problem right now. I've actually managed to get the humidity to stay fairly reliably above 40 now. So even without the fancy equipment, we're getting it close to right. Still, I can't wait to have it all together--I think it will make our lives easier and Sammy's more comfortable.

Thanks so much for all the support and information. :)

Heather

Oh, and yes, I'm glad we don't have to worry about additional cages yet! :P The guy we got Sammy from offered a discount on a second snake, and boy am I glad we said no! I would love to have my own snake (so I don't have to always borrow Carey's :P), but I think we'll wait until we have this thing seriously worked out and really know what we're doing. And then, we'll set up the environment and get it perfect BEFORE bringing the snake home.

Live and learn. :D

i know this is an older thread, but i found it EXTREMELY useful as i am in the process of swtiching over to a tub setup and this answered every question i could think of (along with the DIY tub-setup thread).

thought maybe reviving this thread will help out other newbie BP owners like me :gj: