feeding tub thoughts

I've always wondered how people that use feeding tubs get their snake back into it's "home" enclosure after it's eaten? I was under the impression you should not mess with the snake for a good 2 days after it's had a meal. Do you use any device like a hook or just pick him back up and move him or what? Just curious for my own knowledge. Thanks.

when i put my snake back in i just pick them up and put them back in. Its just a quick move, i dont sit there and handle them or anything. I think the 2 days that you are thinking about is for you not to take them out and play with them. putting them back into their enclosure should be fine.

good to know, thanks for the response.

Yea same here, I jsut wait till they are done then gently pic them up and put them in the cage. He pretty much goes straight for a hide and I dont see him for a day.

I don't see the point in picking my snake up, putting it in a tub to eat, and picking it back up and putting it in its enclosure. Just seems like needless stress when they're supposed to be concentrating on eating.

The argument commonly given is that they can learn to associate your hand with food resulting in you getting bitten, but the logic doesn't follow.

The only snake I have that is pissy was like that when I opened the box she arrived in and hasn't changed a bit. It's nothing to do with where she's fed, LOL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by slartibartfast

I don't see the point in picking my snake up, putting it in a tub to eat, and picking it back up and putting it in its enclosure. Just seems like needless stress when they're supposed to be concentrating on eating.

The argument commonly given is that they can learn to associate your hand with food resulting in you getting bitten, but the logic doesn't follow.

The only snake I have that is pissy was like that when I opened the box she arrived in and hasn't changed a bit. It's nothing to do with where she's fed, LOL.

---

agreed

I used to feed in a different tub but I didn't see the point after awhile
now I just feed right in their tubs since they are on newspaper.. before I was worried about them eating substrate when I was using aspen

I use a tub for several reasons.

1. They say it makes them less cage aggressive, I know some people dont believe this but ask anyone you know about "Hook training" and you can see that snakes DO learn associations.

2. Eating substrate

3. Better strike acuracy

4. I feed live and I dont need a mouse borrowing under the substrate or hiding in a bush somewhere where he bites me as I pull him out.

5. If some thing goes wrong (bad strike, mouse bitting snake, snake frightened, etc.) I have much better control over being able to handle it.

6. Easier to clean up, live mice poop or pee sometimes when struck.

So there's my :2cent: but I get change back all the time so take it with a grain of salt...

:salute: -Mikey

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheDude

I use a tub for several reasons.

1. They say it makes them less cage aggressive, I know some people dont believe this but ask anyone you know about "Hook training" and you can see that snakes DO learn associations.

2. Eating substrate

3. Better strike acuracy

4. I feed live and I dont need a mouse borrowing under the substrate or hiding in a bush somewhere where he bites me as I pull him out.

5. If some thing goes wrong (bad strike, mouse bitting snake, snake frightened, etc.) I have much better control over being able to handle it.

6. Easier to clean up, live mice poop or pee sometimes when struck.

So there's my :2cent: but I get change back all the time so take it with a grain of salt...

:salute: -Mikey

---

OK, I'll bite! :P

1. - As Brad (elevatethis) has pointed out before, if an argument can be made that feeding in the enclosure will make a ball python more cage aggressive, the same argument can be made that when a ball python is put into a feeding tub, they will associate that tub with feeding and become feeding tub aggressive. I don't know about you - but I don't want to pick up a snake in feeding mode - especially since they can stay that way for some time after eating. With that said - I have 15, all fed in the enclosure that do not have cage aggression. And none are hook trained either! :rolleyes:

2. - A little bit of substrate won't hurt them, their bodies are designed to digest bones, fur, nails and teeth, a little bit of substrate will be taken care of as well.

3. - Can't speak to that - mine strike in less than 15 seconds, none have ever missed. Is there some study that you are aware of, that their strike accuracy is better in a feeding tub where they are exposed (no protection from their hides to ambush strike from)?

4. - I never had a mouse or rat burrow in the aspen when I was on aspen - but then, they didn't last more then 15 seconds anyway, so I guess they didn't get a chance to burrow.

5. - Never had experience with anything going wrong - I also feed live.

6. - When I was on aspen, the little bit of pee or poop from the mouse or rat wasn't that stinky. Now that I'm on newspaper, it's easy enough to do a quick cage cleaning in two days - but I've not found it to be a big problem.

With all that said - feed in the manner you are most comfortable with, but also come armed with fair and balanced information to come to that decision! :D

I used to feed in a separate tub, used a hook or just my hands to remove them.


I no longer do this as it is pointless. Captive ball pythons do not lose the ability to digest/break down substrate and other matter that *may* be ingested while feeding. Nor do they lose the "accuracy" when feeding in their every day enclosure, your simply introducing the chance that they will not feed as they put into a new environment and may have more of an urge to explore or escape. Rodent feces...if it bothers you that much in a day or two you can pick it out or clean the whole tub.

I'm not sure who "they" is that says snakes become more aggressive when feeding in their every day enclosure?? To me the stress of handling the snake introducing a new environment ("clean tub") and then handling the snake again after just consuming a meal would cause a better chance of them having any aggressive response. Even when I was feeding in a separate tub I didn't believe in those sorts of associations.

Lol, well maybe my dude is just lazy. He takes his time before striking, ussually takes him a minute or two.

The reason i brought up the accuracy part is my friends snake had a bad strike where he got the mouse on the butt and wasnt coiled around the mouse right. And that bugger started attacking like crazy. He had to reach in and kill the mouse himself since his sanke was just holding on to the butt and getting bit to all heck.

As far as the cage aggressiveness I dont know other than what i have read here, seems like it just depends on the snake. My guy is mellow as can be after eating. I dont think he is stressed from being moved back and forth between his enclosures, but I havent asked him lately either, lol :P

I use a tub because that's what the previous owner used, and I figured the less change in routine, the better. I think this argument/debate/controversy is a lot like the mouse vs. rat nutrition "controversy" or, to a lesser extent, what's the best substrate. Tubs work for folks who use them, not using tubs works for folks who don't use tubs. As for snakes getting aggressive in tubs, I doubt it. For one thing, I always wash my hands immediately after handling prey (it is, after all, a rat we're talking about) and the snake is, presumably, full after eating a rat. I'm probably overfeeding. My snake has grown a lot since I moved him from a weekly mouse to a weekly rat and wasn't as enthused as usual during his last feeding (struck as usual, but didn't eat it right away). I can't imagine he'd strike a clean hand after dinner--he heads straight for a hide and stays there for a couple days after he eats, like he's sleeping it off. I wouldn't stop by Burger King on my way home from the all-you-can-eat buffet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by digcolnagos

I use a tub because that's what the previous owner used, and I figured the less change in routine, the better. I think this argument/debate/controversy is a lot like the mouse vs. rat nutrition "controversy" or, to a lesser extent, what's the best substrate. Tubs work for folks who use them, not using tubs works for folks who don't use tubs. As for snakes getting aggressive in tubs, I doubt it. For one thing, I always wash my hands immediately after handling prey (it is, after all, a rat we're talking about) and the snake is, presumably, full after eating a rat. I'm probably overfeeding. My snake has grown a lot since I moved him from a weekly mouse to a weekly rat and wasn't as enthused as usual during his last feeding (struck as usual, but didn't eat it right away). I can't imagine he'd strike a clean hand after dinner--he heads straight for a hide and stays there for a couple days after he eats, like he's sleeping it off. I wouldn't stop by Burger King on my way home from the all-you-can-eat buffet.

---

Wow nice post! :rockon:

I used to use another "feeding" tub for my boas to avoid that food and hand mixup stuff and I saw no difference at all. When they get bigger, for example my 6' female boa, you don't want to handle them in feeding mode. I'm sure anyone that keeps bigger snakes will agree with this

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by digcolnagos

I use a tub because that's what the previous owner used, and I figured the less change in routine, the better.

---

That is very good thinking. Ball pythons become conditioned to a certain method of care, keeping it consistent as long as it works is key.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by digcolnagos

I can't imagine he'd strike a clean hand after dinner--

---

Well...believe it. Ball pythons that are in feed mode may very well try to hit anything with a heat signature - that includes your hand. It is during this time that you probably have the BEST chance of being bitten compared to any other time.

In the end...whether you feed in a seperate tub or in the enclosure...so long as the snake eats, there's no right or wrong way.

The arguement I always say over and over goes like this:

If feeding a snake inside its enclosure once a week causes the snake to expect to be fed each and every time the keeper reaches into the enclosure, an equally convincing arguement can be made that if a snake is removed from its enclosure to be fed once a week, then it would expect to be fed each and every the snake is removed from its enclosure (including for handling, cleaning, etc.).

What to take from that is this - it doesn't matter whether you feed inside or out, if your snake wants to bite you...it will ;)

Wow you guys/gals sure took this question a little farther than I expected, but it's good to see that everyone has their own views on the topic. I'm doing what Digcolnagos said, I'm using a tub b/c that's what my snake was used to before I got him, and the less change, the better in my book. Thanks for the replies, and if I can ever figure out how to post pictures, I'll get some up.

Good Day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carmich132

Wow you guys/gals sure took this question a little farther than I expected, but it's good to see that everyone has their own views on the topic. I'm doing what Digcolnagos said, I'm using a tub b/c that's what my snake was used to before I got him, and the less change, the better in my book. Thanks for the replies, and if I can ever figure out how to post pictures, I'll get some up.

Good Day.

---

Upload the pics to a photo hosting server like www.picturetrail.com or www.photobucket.com and post the IMG code or just the photo location in the [img] [/img]brackets(I hope I did the brackets right lol)

Yep, and even if you do feed in the enclosure(like I do), each and every week, if they want to bite you, they will. I was opening Mininth's(orange granite female-500g) lid on her 15qt tub, and WHAM! She gets me on my thumb. Lets go immediately though as I'm not food and the mouse in my other hand was :)


She, and the rest of the others, get very excited during feeding time, and I can't even imagine trying to get each and every one of them out to put them in a separate tub. I would bleed to death! Haha! I think next time I'll use my foot long hemos to open her lid :-D

And then there's the girls who come for my face on feeding day... THOSE are fun. Anyone want to get them out?! *giggle*

Another great argument for newspaper substrate! No worries about digestion.. way to get 100% of the waste matter out after a defecation/urination.. there is nothing better than it.
I have taken to using a few clumps of Carefresh though, to provide a little bit of a "blinder" for them to hide in in the tubs in addition to their hide spots; it also provides a little bit of an irregular landscape so that it is not like living on a flat kitchen counter or something. :) I always mist it though, and it helps out a lot during shed times. For feeding, I just push it to one side of the tub and feed on the other side.. no danger.
Now my female, Ginger, could be the poster child for zipping out to bite you when her tub is opened.. but honestly, I would feel less safe trying to lift her out of a feeding tub after she's eaten; she would latch onto me like she did a few months ago. Instead, I just use the tried-and-true spray bottle to lightly compress her head when I lift her out.. she has actually learned that this means it is not feeing time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

I have 15, all fed in the enclosure that do not have cage aggression. And none are hook trained either! :rolleyes:

---

I would consider yourself lucky here... some ball pythons are just outwardly overly aggressive and need to be water bottle or hook trained (seems like both have the same principles) to avoid any potential injuries. The reason I am pointing this out is because the smiley you used leads me to believe hook training is silly.

As far as using a feeding tub or not, I have practiced both methods with my snakes and have had success with both. I feed in their enclosures now because it is less time consuming, but there are times when I still do it every once in a while. Right now I have a male and female paired up. The female is off feed and the male is not, so if they are still paired up on feeding day, I remove the male to feed him.

I also have 15 snakes and each one is fed in its enclosure. Some get f/t some get live and none have even struck at me except for one time when I got my first BP and I opened a hide and startled it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rapture

I would consider yourself lucky here... some ball pythons are just outwardly overly aggressive and need to be water bottle or hook trained (seems like both have the same principles) to avoid any potential injuries. The reason I am pointing this out is because the smiley you used leads me to believe hook training is silly.

---

Hook training a ball python? I guess for me, I do think it's silly. As Adam has said before - you have to OWN your snake! ;) That doesn't mean that I don't respect someone else's right to hook train theirs if that's what makes them more comfortable.

I do have some that don't want to be bothered, I wouldn't make a direct correlation between that aggression as a result of feeding in the tub, just their personality, and I do lightly touch them on top of the head with a water bottle. But using a hook training them to get them out of the cage? I don't think it's necessary. I can see how it would be with larger snakes though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

Hook training a ball python? I guess for me, I do think it's silly. As Adam has said before - you have to OWN your snake! ;) That doesn't mean that I don't respect someone else's right to hook train theirs if that's what makes them more comfortable.

I do have some that don't want to be bothered, I wouldn't make a direct correlation between that aggression as a result of feeding in the tub, just their personality, and I do lightly touch them on top of the head with a water bottle. But using a hook training them to get them out of the cage? I don't think it's necessary. I can see how it would be with larger snakes though.

---

x2

The only reason I brought it up is because half of hook training seems to be a lot like the water bottle method when you touch the hook to the snake's head to discourage aggression. That's more what I was referring to. You're right, I couldn't really think of a situation where I would need to actually hook a ball python to get it out of its cage.

Just wanted to add that on Seward's DVD, the Sutherlands (Snake Keeper) mention feeding live in the tub, and then removing the still-constricting snake to clean the enclosure, putting the snake back in before it begins swallowing. So you could consider putting your snake back in it's enclosure at that point (constricting). That would also minimize your risk of getting bitten, since the snake is occupied. Plus that negates some of the other negatives mentioned in previous posts associated with feeding in the tub (ie. mouse hiding, or attacking the snake).

Feeding a snake in its cage does not make it more aggressive or more likely to bite your hand, that's bunk. It is always mentioned in this situation and everyone always rebukes it with personal experience. I have never heard anyone confirm this. A bite can always be explained some other way. The one time I was bitten it was outside of the enclosure.

Either way works though, there is no wrong answer.

Moving the snake while it's still constricting? That sounds odd. I'd always thought you want to leave them alone as much as possible because, in the wild, they're most vulnerable when they're eating, and any kind of disturbance would cause them to spit it out. Whoever said your snake will bite you if it wants to bite you is right, I think. Their brains are, what, the size of a pea? We'll never figure them out.

I don't see why you would need to clean the tank at feeding time.

Efficiency I guess.

Feeding time, while he's in the tub, is a good time to check the hides for urates and provide fresh water. That isn't the only time I clean his cage--any waste I see gets removed right away--but it's one of the times. No one likes to take an after-dinner nap in a messy bed.

Moving a snake while it's constricting is a case of knowing your animal ... I have plenty in my collection that would drop in heartbeat if you even looked at them funny while they're constricting ... these things are living creatures, not VCR's ... there's no one size fits all manual to their care.

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Moving a snake while it's constricting is a case of knowing your animal ... I have plenty in my collection that would drop in heartbeat if you even looked at them funny while they're constricting ... these things are living creatures, not VCR's ... there's no one size fits all manual to their care.

-adam

---

Same here, I have some that will constrict for an hour at a time or more if they know I am in the room. Others could care less and i can peer into the tub and watch them get the rat down.