The effects of ball pythons on the reptile community

I have heard alot of different opinions on what the high increase of interest in ball pythons has brought to the reptile community over the last 5 years. The fact that ball pythons have greatly effected the community is without doubt.....but the way in which it has changed the community is unclear at times.

Some opinions are positive....some are negative.

For example.....

The idea of 'investment' animals appauls some....but the opportunity to earn money with a hobby appeals to others.

More people owning reptiles means more support on legislative issues....but more people owning reptiles means more legislative issues will be brought fourth.

Increased interest in ball pythons has caused some to 'forget about' other interesting reptiles out there.....ball pythons have opened the world of reptiles to some and sparked interest in other species of herps.

Those are just some of the opinions that I have heard.....please share any others that you may have.

I thought it would be great to get everyones' opinion on the topic.

Most people I know consider Ball Pythons boring. I don't know why they think that, probably because alot of people have one.

i had no idea people thought ball pythons were a negative thing :confuzd: lol

I love morphs because of the opportunities seem to be endless in what you can produce. If ppl don't like the way ball pythons are, please, by all means, don't deal with them :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nathanledet

i had no idea people thought ball pythons were a negative thing :confuzd: lol

---

It is not the actual animal that some people consider negative.......it is the rest of the stuff that came along with ball pythons that some people dislike....just to name a few...

Large amounts of LAM (Labratory Animal Method) for housing reptiles (ie. rack systems) as opposed to people trying to go for a 'naturalistic' approach to keeping.

The influx of people that are viewing reptiles as a 'get rich quick source of money' in which the value of the snake is the only thing of concern.

People have traded their entire collections of reptiles to try to get involved with ball python morphs. Now, some once common species that were kept by hobbiest have become 'hard to find'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

For example.....

The idea of 'investment' animals appauls some....but the opportunity to earn money with a hobby appeals to others.

---

I don't think it's ball pythons per se that might have effected the community, but moreso the absolutely explosion in demand over the past decade or so. I've spoken to more than a few "old school" herpers that have been shocked by the increase in demand for what was, back in the day, considered a boring, B-list reptile to keep.

No doubt that the increase in variety of morphs and advances in the captive husbandry of ball pythons have helped fuel their demand.

So rewind 5-10 years and you have an animal with a high demand and low supply...whenever there is a market that acheives above average returns, you have lots of entry into that market.

So now you've got people getting into ball pythons for the purpose of making a return. IMO, thats a lame excuse to get into a hobby, but on the flip side, who would have thought that snake I got when I was 13 could turn into something that could pay for itself?

What it comes down to is that there are people who are passionate about ball pythons involved in the market, and you've got people who could give a rip about them and only care about their "investment." Unfortunately, the people who really love the animals don't get anywhere near as much press and exposure as the people who don't. This is where ball pythons, in the opinions of some, may have had a negative affect on the hobby.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

More people owning reptiles means more support on legislative issues....but more people owning reptiles means more legislative issues will be brought fourth.

---

Any time something becomes more mainstream and widely accepted, legislation loses its blinders a little bit more. The public generally fears what they do not understand. The better they understand, the less they fear, and the law opens up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

Increased interest in ball pythons has caused some to 'forget about' other interesting reptiles out there....

---

Because balls rock! What other reptile has such a docile temperment, easy (once you get it right) care requirements, and come in such a variety of color morphs? For me its a no brainer.

Also...I'd like to hear the reasoning on the other side of the fence, from someone who think ball pythons have affected the herp community negatively.

I've heard/read things like ball pythons commercializing the reptile community, etc...those sorts of naysayers come out of the woodwork every time something underground goes somewhat mainstream and people who have been around longer are left in the dust...like someone who likes a band before they make it big...then whine about how they've "changed.."

Sorry for the long post...kinda slow at work today ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

The better they understand, the less they fear, and the law opens up.

---

That is not always the case. Sometimes the law closes down....after all, the government sometimes feels like it has to remain in control somehow. For example, they say that it is perfectly fine to own snakes....but you must have a permit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

Because balls rock! What other reptile has such a docile temperment, easy (once you get it right) care requirements, and come in such a variety of color morphs? For me its a no brainer.

---

Corn snakes.....docile temperment, easy care requirements, and variety of color morphs......they also carry a lower price tag. Brazilian rainbow boas are up and coming too ;)

The thing is some people got rid of their 'other snake' collections in order to focus on ball pythons......has that hurt the community or benefited it?

this is a very interesting topic

I look forward to reading the different opinions

In my humble opinion, when the dust settles and the smoke clears this wild ride will end up being an extemely positive thing for the herp community as a whole ... until then, fasten your seatbelts and have your barf bag handy! :sweeet:

-adam

I agree with Adam... while this thing gets up and going with more and more people getting involved, eventually the guys in it soley for the financial return will come and go, but the true enthusiasts will always be there with quality animals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

In my humble opinion, when the dust settles and the smoke clears this wild ride will end up being an extemely positive thing for the herp community as a whole ... until then, fasten your seatbelts and have your barf bag handy! :sweeet:

---

I agree with the final outcome. However, I find myself wondering how long the 'wild ride' will last and what is going to be dropped off before the ride is over.

This whole thread was brought about because someone said something along the lines of "The current ball python situation brings nothing but shame to the reptile community".....that got me thinking, thats all ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

I agree with the final outcome. However, I find myself wondering how long the 'wild ride' will last and what is going to be dropped off before the ride is over.

This whole thread was brought about because someone said something along the lines of "The current ball python situation brings nothing but shame to the reptile community".....that got me thinking, thats all ;)

---

Signs point to not much longer. ;) :sweeet:

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

The thing is some people got rid of their 'other snake' collections in order to focus on ball pythons......has that hurt the community or benefited it?

---

IMHO, those who are able to dump other collection of snakes for Ball pythons simply because of a fad or money, will dump their Ball python collections as soon as the next gravy train pulls up or Ball Pythons are no longer meeting their expectations.

IMHO, there is no negative in owning ball pythons, just the problems brought on by those simply owning them for money.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

That is not always the case. Sometimes the law closes down....after all, the government sometimes feels like it has to remain in control somehow. For example, they say that it is perfectly fine to own snakes....but you must have a permit.

---

Or, as was the case of the New York state legislation that we're all familiar with, a bunch of herpers banded together and educated the legislature on how their law would include harmless boids, such as ball pythons, in its original draft. Would that have happened if ball pythons and other smaller harmless constrictors weren't economically valuable enough to get people organized? The average keeper with one snake probably wouldn't have cared enough to get involved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

Corn snakes.....docile temperment, easy care requirements, and variety of color morphs......they also carry a lower price tag. Brazilian rainbow boas are up and coming too ;)

---

Yeah, but corn snakes are stringy little boogers that poop too much. Balls are wayyyy cooler...

Brazilians are cool, but much more sensitive to bad husbandry than ball pythons, which in my opinion will be a limitation to their potential as a "mainstream" pet to have. Do you think a brazilian would survive a month in a 10 gal tank with a heat lamp in someone's living room? Of course not...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

The thing is some people got rid of their 'other snake' collections in order to focus on ball pythons......has that hurt the community or benefited it?

---

If "getting rid" of their collection didn't involve sticking it in the freezer or flushing it down the toilet...someone bought it...how could that be a bad thing if someone else was interested?

You do it because you love the animals first! Those who only think of $ and do not appreciate or respect their animals are sure to be disapointed with whatever happens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

Or, as was the case of the New York state legislation that we're all familiar with, a bunch of herpers banded together and educated the legislature on how their law would include harmless boids, such as ball pythons, in its original draft. Would that have happened if ball pythons and other smaller harmless constrictors weren't economically valuable enough to get people organized? The average keeper with one snake probably wouldn't have cared enough to get involved.

---

We tried to do the same thing in Louisiana. The only reason the legislation did not get 'permiting' passed for ALL snakes was because an important 'Katrina' issue held up the Congress and they did not get a chance to have the final vote before the close of the session. We had over 50+ people crowded in the legislation room opposing the bill (not all were financially involved with a breeding business) and it was still getting pushed forward. We had to sit there and listen to the State Rep talk about how 'The only good snake is a dead one". Economics?.....The CEO of Fluker Farms was there showing opposition to the bill.....a multimillion dollar company showing opposition and it still was moving forward! Just because something like that would work in New York does not mean that it would work elsewhere. Some people are ignorant about snakes....and refuse to be educated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

We tried to do the same thing in Louisiana. The only reason the legislation did not get 'permiting' passed for ALL snakes was because an important 'Katrina' issue held up the Congress and they did not get a chance to have the final vote before the close of the session. We had over 50+ people crowded in the legislation room opposing the bill (not all were financially involved with a breeding business) and it was still getting pushed forward. We had to sit there and listen to the State Rep talk about how 'The only good snake is a dead one". Economics?.....The CEO of Fluker Farms was there showing opposition to the bill.....a multimillion dollar company showing opposition and it still was moving forward! Just because something like that would work in New York does not mean that it would work elsewhere. Some people are ignorant about snakes....and refuse to be educated.

---

I've had a little bit of exposure to the legislative process in Virginia, and one thing I can say is that crowding the legislative hall on the day that a bill is supposed to be voted on falls far short of taking a proactive approach to influencing legislation - especially when you've got a lawmaking body that is already consumed by making policy for disaster relief.

People involved in the NY State situation sat down with the people who drafted the bill far in advance of the vote and got the wording of the bill changed. In contrast, storming the courthouse, so to speak, won't get you very far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

State Rep talk about how 'The only good snake is a dead one". Some people are ignorant about snakes....and refuse to be educated.

---

Unfortunate side effect of not being able to think out side of ones buns... :no:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

People involved in the NY State situation sat down with the people who drafted the bill far in advance of the vote

---

No one stormed the legislature. We were there to show our support and show that the issue was important to us. In our case, the people who drafted the bill were an animal rights activist stating "Ball pythons kill people" and the State Rep that was screaming "I don't care. If I see a snake, I kill it". There was no compromise.

Not to mention that, fellow herpers only seemed to have their own interests in mind when pushing for change. Kingsnake owners wanted an exemption for kingsnakes only......instead of presenting a united front, they caved and were only looking out for themselves. The Louisiana Gulf Coast Herp. Society had worked with the state in previous years to develop proper legislation. That is where our current licensing for 12+ constrictors and venomous snakes came from. Last year the issue arose 'out of the blue'.

Don't for a second think that New York's (or any states') laws are 'set in stone'....all it takes is from one ignorant bastard to come along....and they will be voting on the issue again.

imo, balls are the snakes that can go mainstream! with allthe morphs/colors, temperment and handable size. i think this would be positive for all herps. if the morphs bring in someone new to reptiles, it's only a matter of time before they explore other herps as well.


vaughn

Perfect eventual size, amazing variations and temperment, are all the reasons ball pythons are at the top of the game. I think balls have brought more people in too the reptile hobby than any other reptile. So yes I feel they have been a positive. These are snakes that our kids can handle and enjoy without any worries.

Before I owned a snake, and was doing my research all I could read about was to start with either a corn snake or a ball python. So I go down to the pet store, and completely lost interest in corn snakes, however became captivated by the python. I purchased my first bp and since then have decided to really become part of this whole reptile thing. I'm looking for my second snake and planning for even more in the future.

If thats not a success story than I don't know what is. If it weren't for bp's alot of people would be to afraid to even get involved with snakes in the first place. I think they've done wonders for the community.

Our greedy politricians will require permits permits = money just another way to tax you.

my only worry with the morph craze is that many people are getting into breeding for the wrong reasons.

Luckily the internet allows anyone with a computer to distribute their unwanted snakes, so all the 'normals' that result from these basement/bedroom breeding projects will probably end up placed in a good home.
Also luckily the flood of domestic breeding projects will hopefully reduce the importation of wild pythons
:rockon:

so overall probably a good thing.
without the internet though we'd end up with a bunch of unwanted baby snakes without homes. thank god for the internet :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fishmommy

Also luckily the flood of domestic breeding projects will hopefully reduce the importation of wild pythons
:rockon:

---

Actually, the exportation of wild ball pythons is a vital part of the conservation of wild populations...there was a really good thread on this a few months ago...I searched but no dice.

Is this the thread you were talking about?

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=33693

This doesnt mean importation is without some still controversial ecological risks......the subject is a complicated one, but importation of ball pythons may be more risky to species here than the species in Africa....

"Results of the risk-assessment models indicate that species including boa constrictors (Boa constrictor), ball pythons (Python regius), and reticulated pythons (P. reticulatus) may pose particularly high risks as potentially invasive species"

An ecological risk assessment of nonnative boas and pythons as potentially invasive species in the United States.
Risk Anal. 2005 Jun;25(3):753-66.

I have this paper.....but have yet to read it seriously.

I responded to this on Fauna, and I think there you will get your less-"Ball Python Friendly" responses.


I love Ball Pythons, and agree with most here that I think it is a great thing, not a bad thing at all.

It is bringing more people into the hobby, which may expand into the other markets of the herp community.

I have to say that when I have more space, I fully intend on branching out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

"Results of the risk-assessment models indicate that species including boa constrictors (Boa constrictor), ball pythons (Python regius), and reticulated pythons (P. reticulatus) may pose particularly high risks as potentially invasive species"

---

I agree with it. Any preditory species thrown into an ecosystem where it isn't naturally found, presents a massive risk to an area's ecosystem. The Burmese is doing just that in Florida. The species itself isn't to blame, but the irresponsible owners who release them into the wild.

Can anyone seriously argue that an en masse release of ball pythons, in a non-native environment, doesn't bring a potential risk towards similar sized predators and certainly, small mammalian populations?

I don't think the Ball Python is a bad thing for the field of herpetology. Poor care, and more importantly, poor caretakers are the most dangerous aspects of any greatly popular animal. Balls tend to bring in more of the bad side, and we all know that is largely because of the economic reasons.

However, I agree with the sentiments that, as the market starts to become less economically appealing, most of the scabs will find there way into some new market to devour. At that point, we will probably see less threads like these and more threads about new owners that have no interest in breeding. And like Adam, I assume that time isn't far off.

In the interim... I don't really care what the consensus is on who or what is ruining the field of herpetology. Ball pythons are just cool herps, and I happen to really like owning them. And neither an overzealous government body, nor a flood, is going to prevent that :).

Obviously since I love BP's I think they are a wonderful influence on the reptile community. I've had many friends that were initially afraid of snakes that after spending a bit of quality time with one of our BP's, completely changed their views not only on captive snakes but those lovely ones living in their own backyards.

Now as to the internet influence. This is something that I think about a lot. It's a great thing in that we can share as an online community, we can teach, learn, network, etc. That's the good side of it. The flip side is the scammers, the idiots, the "Jimmy" types. They click onto Ralph Davis' site or Adam Wysocki's or Kara and Kev's and they see those beautiful, very pricey morphs and see nothing but the dollar signs.

They don't see Ralph's years of work or the business he's built through a huge amount of sweat and committment. They don't see Adam's years in this business, building his collection and producing his top quality snakes. They want to be Adam today without bothering to put in the sheer time of all those yesterdays! I'm sure they don't even bother to realize the hours Kara and Kevin have likely put in at their kitchen table pouring over breeding plans, praying and hoping some particular mating actually works out. They don't face the knowledge that disappointment and loss will occur. They are quite simply short term thinkers with little care for the herp community as a whole.

They want to be superstars without first being just someone committed to a dream and the snakes that will maybe, if you are very lucky and very committed, actually help you realize it. They are the "shame" of the reptile community.

All I know is my own experience and it's been on the whole just wonderful. Mike and I have yet to produce one single BP egg but that hasn't stopped our dreams nor the hours we spend making the best decisions we know how for our collection, making business plans, discussing future breedings or purchases, planning current matings, and enjoying our friendships online and offline in this herp community. We'll never be Ralph or Adam or Kara and Kev and that's just fine with us. As long as we produce lovely snakes, are decent and honorable business people with a rock solid reputation and take good care of our collection....well that's all it needs to be.

I'd bet my last cent on the fact that none of the breeders I've just mentioned above got into this to be a superstar or make a million bucks. Their level of continuing committment not only to their own collections but to reaching out to help newcomers speaks of a love for the species and the keeping of Ball Pythons that far exceeds ups and down in a market or jumping on any stupid bandwagon.

There ends my rant LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LadyOhh

I responded to this on Fauna, and I think there you will get your less-"Ball Python Friendly" responses.

---

That is what I am trying to get too.....Where is this 'ball python owner' sterotype coming from? Why are some people so set in their opinions that people that own ball pythons are 'no good' or 'trouble to the community'?

I really don't understand it.

Probably a bit of elitist behaviour there Daniel. Anything that becomes popular can be looked down on and yes there have been some abuses by the idiots out there. Just like after 101 Dalmations came out every doofus with an unfixed dalmation jumped on that and sold a whole bunch of inferior dogs that ended up euthanized or in shelters (same thing with pot belly pigs, etc.) Bet that went over well on some sites dedicated to those breeds.

Unfortunately the net gives a voice and a place to find victims for the scams and so forth of these fools. This of course gives the nay sayers something to post about. It's always easier, I think to complain and critisize rather than do anything to change a situation or help create a positive environment....that's human nature at one of it's less than spectacular moments.

I understand your points Jo, but I think that there is more to it than just those issues.

Here are some quotes from experienced keepers on other forums.....this is how people feel about 'the ball python boom' influence and just the general progression of hobby level keepers....these focus mainly on housing....

Quote:

---

How can one enjoy watching and observing, or learning from their captives when they are housed in dark, opaque plastic containers in shelf-systems? If these people were truly concerned with providing optimal conditions for their captives (and not just 'getting by' in order to breed their animals for money), why are $20,000 snakes being kept in $20 setups?

---

Quote:

---

For the life of me I can't figure out why anyone (other than large-scale breeders) would keep their animals in a rack system, how utterly pointless. Just the name-"rack system" sounds like a mid-evil( I know, wrong spelling) torture device, wait come to think of it, it's a fitting name.
Why are we as a group ( herpers) so against progress?
Seriously? what is the problem?

---

Quote:

---

Most people who breed balls keep them in excurciatingly small enclosures, certainly the space that was used for one pair of burms producing 50+ eggs can house enough balls to match that output.
The "ball python" age (as you call it) has brought nothing but shame to our hobby, exposing the fact that most care very little for these animals, reducing them to commodities , disregarding their natural history and natural beauty. Treating any animal as an "investment" is, in my opinion sick and wrong. This has stimulated nothing but greed, nobody is helping to stop the trade in wild animals or helping to reduce habitat loss. Most people who sell these designer animals don't even mention where these animals come from or the problems they are facing in the wild

---

These quotes are a good representation of the type of opinions that I have heard concerning the ball python community and the hobby progress in general.



In my opinion, the reptile community is split up over so many issues these days.... housing issues, feeding issues, business issues, ethical issues, care issues....the list goes on and on....if we can ever reach a point where the reptile community puts aside differences and stands as a whole.....the hobby will progress forward by leaps and bounds.

I can understand about the gripes people have with the way people house ball pythons.

My neighbor's girlfriend is convinced I'm an evil animal hater because I lock the poor snakes in a dark rack with nothing but a water bowl and a hide and feed them a live rodent once a week.

Its no secret that people tend to dislike what they do not understand.

If I had the time and resources to keep every single one of my ball pythons in an enclosure that would accurately mimic their natural environment, I would - but that is simply IMPOSSIBLE, even if I had only one ball python.

What I do know is this - from what I've seen, ball pythons raised by even newbie keepers in rack systems are by and large healthier than the average ball python in the average home with the average keeper in the average setup. Something has got to be said for that.

Some animals need a lot of space. Ball pythons do not. Applying universal rules to a hobby where there are so many different species and care requirements, there's going to be conflict. The people who say that keeping ball pythons in rack systems is cruel don't have a clue about what they are talking about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

My neighbor's girlfriend is convinced I'm an evil animal hater because I lock the poor snakes in a dark rack with nothing but a water bowl and a hide and feed them a live rodent once a week.

Its no secret that people tend to dislike what they do not understand.

---

When I first started getting bps I told my boyfriend that I wanted a rack system and he told me it was mean and to use tanks.

I kept one in a tank and the rest in a tub. The one I kept in a tank wouldn't eat, was always moving around, ect. I moved him to a tub and he's since started eating and does what balls should do which is hide.

My boyfriend now said I was right and we should not use tanks anymore because he clearly didn't like it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joyful girl

My boyfriend now said I was right and we should not use tanks anymore because he clearly didn't like it.

---

Women are always right ... he'll learn. :sweeet:

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

That is what I am trying to get too.....Where is this 'ball python owner' sterotype coming from? Why are some people so set in their opinions that people that own ball pythons are 'no good' or 'trouble to the community'?

I really don't understand it.

---

Daniel I think it gets back to just hateing the fact that ball pythons are by far the number 1 attraction in the reptile biz. I'm not saying that there aren't certain concerns but I think it's mostly the latter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daniel1983

I really don't understand it.

---

They're all just jealous cause ball pythons are the best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

They're all just jealous cause ball pythons are the best.

---

Yeeeahh!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Women are always right ... he'll learn. :sweeet:

-adam

---

when will all the rest of the guys learn ? :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joyful girl

when will all the rest of the guys learn ? :P

---

Tazers help! :(

-adam

imo, on the setup deal. even if you had a musuem quality habitat built, i'd bet some money $$. you would find a ball crammed in a hole/burrow or under something. most of mine are a little shy and like to hide out! :D



vaughn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Tazers help! :(

-adam

---

ohhh.. that sounds fun!

You know what I find relatively amusing about the whole $20.00 setup thing? Who here spent $20.00 for their rack system? I know that even small fry rack systems like AP's are going to run you around $72.00 per enclosure, and closer to $100.00 per enclosure for top of the line rack systems.

Something that is clearly uninformed shouldn't be taken at value, it shouldn't even be taken at wholesale value. Personally, I think any herp keeper that is busy spreading this type of (mis)information is suffering from either envy, or butthurt that their "club" is being infiltrated by hobbiests.

Time and time again, rack systems have proven to provide better eaters, less nervous snakes and a longer and more stable quality of life. How in the world can that be construed as a "bad thing"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jhall1468

You know what I find relatively amusing about the whole $20.00 setup thing? Who here spent $20.00 for their rack system? I know that even small fry rack systems like AP's are going to run you around $72.00 per enclosure, and closer to $100.00 per enclosure for top of the line rack systems.

Something that is clearly uninformed shouldn't be taken at value, it shouldn't even be taken at wholesale value. Personally, I think any herp keeper that is busy spreading this type of (mis)information is suffering from either envy, or butthurt that their "club" is being infiltrated by hobbiests.

Time and time again, rack systems have proven to provide better eaters, less nervous snakes and a longer and more stable quality of life. How in the world can that be construed as a "bad thing"?

---

I spent under $20 per tub when it was all said and done for my rack. Homebuilt out of melamine, 1x4, and 1x2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joyful girl

ohhh.. that sounds fun!

---

That's what I'm talking about! :8:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tmlowe5704

I spent under $20 per tub when it was all said and done for my rack. Homebuilt out of melamine, 1x4, and 1x2

---

I'm sure your not the only one. My only complaint was with the accusation that it was the status quo to spend $20.00 per tub. I wholeheartedly disagree with that, since I doubt many major breeders are out in the shop building racks. Most Iris tubs will cost you ~$12.00 alone, so it seems a bit silly to make such a statement.

Its not the "$20.00" per tub thing, it doesn't make a difference what you spend on a rack space....

Its not like the people think you should spend XXX.XX amount on an enclosure, if rack systems cost $300 per tub they would still have a problem with it.

Its the utilitarian type setup that they take issue with.

Tubs make it easier to keep the BP cleaner. You bascially have the tub, hide and water bowl to sanitize....in a larger enclosure, all of the decorations..etc have to be sanitized....more room for laziness on the part of the keeper.

All I know is that I use tubs. I also have 29 happy, healthy consistently eating Ball Pythons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by monk90222

Tubs make it easier to keep the BP cleaner. You bascially have the tub, hide and water bowl to sanitize....in a larger enclosure, all of the decorations..etc have to be sanitized....more room for laziness on the part of the keeper.

All I know is that I use tubs. I also have 29 happy, healthy consistently eating Ball Pythons.

---

You're preaching to the choir....;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

I can understand about the gripes people have with the way people house ball pythons.

My neighbor's girlfriend is convinced I'm an evil animal hater because I lock the poor snakes in a dark rack with nothing but a water bowl and a hide and feed them a live rodent once a week.

Its no secret that people tend to dislike what they do not understand.

If I had the time and resources to keep every single one of my ball pythons in an enclosure that would accurately mimic their natural environment, I would - but that is simply IMPOSSIBLE, even if I had only one ball python.

What I do know is this - from what I've seen, ball pythons raised by even newbie keepers in rack systems are by and large healthier than the average ball python in the average home with the average keeper in the average setup. Something has got to be said for that.

Some animals need a lot of space. Ball pythons do not. Applying universal rules to a hobby where there are so many different species and care requirements, there's going to be conflict. The people who say that keeping ball pythons in rack systems is cruel don't have a clue about what they are talking about.

---

The only truly naturalistic environment for an animal is an ecosystem with predators, parasites, competing species, and a gene pool subjected to the selective pressures of the environment and potential mates.

I think it boils down to animal welfare vs. rights somewhat.....rack and tub systems are easy to heat and maintain the well-being of ball pythons. The number one priority for animals in human care is their health and vitality.

An animal in the wild infested with parasites, stressed over a recent encounter with a predator, and underfed is in some ways more "naturalistic" than our captive animals. But our captive animals in tub/rack systems are probably a lot "healthier". They may not be able to hunt as well if they've been fed F/T. But you get my overall point.

Most ball keepers are not zoo keepers, who try to recapitulate some naturalistic elements of an ecosystem (flora and mutualistic species) for educational purposes...so I see no reason expect pure personal aesthetics for most amateur herpers to favor "naturalistic" aquarium set-ups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

The only truly naturalistic environment for an animal is an ecosystem with predators, parasites, competing species, and a gene pool subjected to the selective pressures of the environment and potential mates.

I think it boils down to animal welfare vs. rights somewhat.....rack and tub systems are easy to heat and maintain the well-being of ball pythons. The number one priority for animals in human care is their health and vitality.

An animal in the wild infested with parasites, stressed over a recent encounter with a predator, and underfed is in some ways more "naturalistic" than our captive animals. But our captive animals in tub/rack systems are probably a lot "healthier". They may not be able to hunt as well if they've been fed F/T. But you get my overall point.

---

Well said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Most ball keepers are not zoo keepers, who try to recapitulate some naturalistic elements of an ecosystem (flora and mutualistic species) for educational purposes...so I see no reason expect pure personal aesthetics for most amateur herpers to favor "naturalistic" aquarium set-ups.

---

I can understand why the average herper would want an attractive aquarium setup - but the thing to keep in mind is that all those plants and nooks and crannies are breeding ground for bacteria and other ill stuff - so all of those things that supposedly look 'natural' are really for the keeper and not the snake. I think that the success of keeping healthy ball pythons in rack systems is a testament to the fact that ball pythons don't necessarily *need* all of that natural flora to maintain an overall positive well being.

Don't think I'm saying that natural viv's are bad for ball pythons nor are their keepers for setting them up like that. For me, even with my relatively small collection, maintaining a group set up like that would be a full-time job.