Poor Python died... looking for a reason

Hi there...

Just today, my ball python, Monty (see if you can find the thickly-disguised cultural reference there...), died.

Me and my girlfriend found the poor guy coiled up in a corner, stiff as a brick. We tried to see if we could revive him, just hoping that maybe this was some sort of "thing" python's do at a certain point... but alas, he never moved.

I'm posting this because I have no clue whatsoever as to why he died, and it would serve to our peace of mind if we at least knew WHY he passed away.

I know it sounds very deep and emotional for just being a python, but we'd had him for a year and grown quite fond of him.

Just to list some stats: He was about 15-18 inches, estimated. They told us he was a baby when the breeder gave him to us.

He was kept in a nice-sized, 30 gallon terrarium, with good mulch, a water bowl and a hidebox. A lamp heated one side up to a balmy 85 degrees (give or take) and the other side was kept cooler. We had everything set up the way in which we were instructed and according to everything we read about pythons. We fed it mice every ten days, pre-killed (save for few occasions when the mouse was deceptively knocked out and woke up).

There were absolutely NO abnormal signs other than the fact that he hadn't shed in a while... but nothing out of the ordinary. It must've been about a month or so since he last shed.

The only other outstanding fact here is that about a week and somewhat days ago, we fed him a small Hamster instead of his usual meal of mice, since the petshop had run out of mice. We did, however, make sure it wasn't too big or anything.

He ate it, pre-killed, and then went on to defecate it just a few days ago. Pretty much the usual routine.


We have looked and looked and asked and thought about it, and we still cannot come up with a valid explanation for his death.

It would mean alot to us if we could just figure out why it happened. I doubt we'll be getting another snake (or any pet, for that matter) any time soon... but we'd still like to have one, in the future, and if would help to know what kind of things can go wrong and unnoticed, like this.


Thanks

Necropsy at a local vet will give some answers. Also did he have an gurgling or weezing sounds? Any sort of dried mucus around the nostrils or constant yawning? Might have had RI. Also, for a BP you want his cool side at 84, and his basking hot side at 90. What sort of mulch was he on? Was it cedar chips by chance? If so that is very toxic to them cause of the oils. Also was is a CB or WC? Sorry to hear about you loss and nothing weird about feeling sad about losing a BP. BP's are pets just like a cat or dog. Except they don't bark at the back door or claw your couch :)

Sorry to hear this. Its perfectally fine to feel sad when you lose a snake, like vomitore said, they are pets too.

I too would recomend taking him to a vet to look for a cause of death.

I wish you the best of luck of your next snake, just don't be discouraged.

Good mulch? May I ask what this mulch consist of? What type of wood?

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A lamp heated one side up to a balmy 85 degrees (give or take) and the other side was kept cooler.

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Ball pythons need temps of around "92-94" on the warm side and 82-84 on the "cool" side.

What were you using to measure the temperature?

If your "warm" side was 84, your cool side would probably be no higher than 78 during the days and perhaps even colder at night. Ball pythons exposed to temperatures in the low 70s for prolonged periods of time can develop an upper respitory infection. Left untreated, it can be deadly.

Aside from that, nothing else in your description waves any red flags.

Very sorry to hear about the loss. :(
The only thing that could have potentially been fatal was the temperature(many others have stated the same.)

I would guess that it was most likely related to the temps, but an alternate explanation may be the hamster ... if the hamster was large enough to have a thich full coat of hair and the ball python was on the small side, all of that hair could have caused an intestinal blockage that would have killed the animal within a couple of weeks ... I've seen it happen in the past.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

... if the hamster was large enough to have a thick full coat of hair and the ball python was on the small side, all of that hair could have caused an intestinal blockage that would have killed the animal within a couple of weeks ... I've seen it happen in the past.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Interesting.... That's the first time I've heard that one.
Adam, would you say that those "Rex" rats pose the risk of what you stated above? Ive seen a few people breeding these for feeders, and was considering adding one or two into my colony. After having read this, Im reconsidering, as Ive never heard of too much hair posing digestion problems before.

Thanks for that tidbit ;)

Go get a necropsy done if you really want to find out what happened.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Festae

Interesting.... That's the first time I've heard that one.
Adam, would you say that those "Rex" rats pose the risk of what you stated above? Ive seen a few people breeding these for feeders, and was considering adding one or two into my colony. After having read this, Im reconsidering, as Ive never heard of too much hair posing digestion problems before.

Thanks for that tidbit ;)

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It's really a matter of the amount of hair (or anything that could block a digestive passage) vs. the size of the animal ... if a hatchling ball python swallows a handfull of aspen for example, you're going to have problems ... but if a 4000 gram adult female swallows that much, she'll just pass it out.

-adam

There's a local expo here I frequent and the hardcore BP breeder keeps his balls at 88 F all the time (warm side) when not breeding. I'm pretty sure the temperature wasn't the problem.

Sorry to hear about your loss. Let us know what the vet says.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

There's a local expo here I frequent and the hardcore BP breeder keeps his balls at 88 F all the time (warm side) when not breeding. I'm pretty sure the temperature wasn't the problem.

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Well, that's a good theory, but the original poster said ...

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Originally Posted by HellPenguin

A lamp heated one side up to a balmy 85 degrees (give or take) and the other side was kept cooler.

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Now, I'm certainly no "hardcore BP breeder" (I consider myself more more "NC-17") but regardless, I have enough experience with ball pythons and different types of setups to know that a 30 gallon glass tank heated to 85 on one side could easily get into the low 70's on the cool side in many american households in the middle of winter ... Without knowing exactly how low of temps the snake was exposed to and for how long, there's really no way that anyone could responsibly claim that "temperature wasn't the problem".

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Well, that's a good theory, but the original poster said ...



Now, I'm certainly no "hardcore BP breeder" (I consider myself more more "NC-17") but regardless, I have enough experience with ball pythons and different types of setups to know that a 30 gallon glass tank heated to 85 on one side could easily get into the low 70's on the cool side in many american households in the middle of winter ... Without knowing exactly how low of temps the snake was exposed to and for how long, there's really no way that anyone could responsibly claim that "temperature wasn't the problem".

-adam

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That's true. With the tank size in mind along with other things you've stated - you're probably right.

And I'll admit that I'm only PG "owner" so don't be offended by my assumptions (note, I said probably). But every single owner slash breeder I've asked (half a dozen or so) has claimed that this site's 92-94 warm side is too hot.

I've also noticed people on these forums keep them at even lower temps without them dying. Healthy, no, but alive nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

92-94 warm side is too hot.

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I've been keeping large numbers of ball pythons at those temps for decades ... my colony is thriving ... no, it's not.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

I've also noticed people on these forums keep them at even lower temps without them dying. Healthy, no, but alive nonetheless.

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Ball pythons die very slowly from temps that are too low ... you could have temps that are too low one year that starts the seeds of a respiratory infection and the following year the animal will get sick and without proper medical attention die. I've been on this board a couple of years now and every winter without a doubt there are at least 2 posts a week about ball pythons with respiratory infections ... those infections are caused by temps that are too low ... respiratory infections, left untreated, will kill a ball python 100% dead ... not so sure what's so hard to understand about that? 82-84 on one side, 92-94 on the other is a good temp range that will keep a ball python happy and respiratory infection free. :D :sweeet:

-adam

Decades huh? Even when the old documentation, now obsolete, used to say that temps even in the high 60s low 70s were proper - you were going against the masses? From what I've read on this forum, the 92-94 is fairly new news.

I know the masses of this forum will disagree with my temps, but based on the in person advice I've gotten from successful breeders I'm sticking to it. If I'm out in left field about this, time will tell and I'd certainly post here about it for any other skeptics :)

I understand about the RI issue. To me, the original poster seemed the type that would notice something like that. I'm sure that some RIs may be less noticeable than others, so I'm sure it's very possible it could be the culprit.

Either way, this is a nightmare and I have the utmost sympathy for the poster.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

Decades huh? Even when the old documentation, now obsolete, used to say that temps even in the high 60s low 70s were proper - you were going against the masses? From what I've read on this forum, the 92-94 is fairly new news.

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Yes, decades ... 27 years since I got my first ball python ... when I started there was no internet, no message boards, and no "documentation" ... I've learned what I know from trial and error and talking to the pioneers of this hobby/industry first hand.

When I visit with the top ball python breeders in the world and see them keeping thousands of ball pythons the exact same way I am keeping mine, or when I feed out 500+ rodents on a Monday morning and everyone eats, or when I pair up males and females for breeding season and 9 out of every 10 females lays eggs, I know that I must be doing something right.

I'm certainly not saying that there aren't other ways to keep ball pythons successfully, I'm just disagreeing with your "absolutes" ... 92-94 is not "too hot" and I can prove it ... I think that you might be a little short on experience to be giving such definitive advice.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

To me, the original poster seemed the type that would notice something like that.

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Not every RI exhibits itself with massive symptoms ... sometimes they can be very hard to miss and even the top breeders in the business lose animals to RI that they never knew were sick ... your assumptions about what may or may not be noticed are way off base.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

I'm sure that some RIs may be less noticeable than others, so I'm sure it's very possible it could be the culprit.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

I'm pretty sure the temperature wasn't the problem.

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So, which is it?

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

Either way, this is a nightmare and I have the utmost sympathy for the poster.

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As do I.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

but based on the in person advice I've gotten from successful breeders I'm sticking to it.

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Name one of them Please!

I need to know who Not to buy from in the future..

When I said it was possible it could be the culprit, I was talking about an RI that would be unnoticeable in a routine examination, not a possible RI from a temp of 85 degrees.

And, again, I said that your point about the size of the tank (I have a 20 long compared with his 30) with the 85 on the warm + winter was a good one. This was after I stated my assumption about the temps not being the problem. I'm sure the cold side difference with a 20 vs 30 is pretty huge and I hadn't even thought of that.

I'll be sticking to my 88 solely because the BP owners I have met in person at expos strongly disagree with this forum. The terrarium sticky for newbies showing a glass terrarium setup with zero ventilation also planted a seed of doubt in my mind. All other advice I've found here has been extremely helpful and I've followed it to the T.

Maybe if I met you in person, talked with you for a few, and saw your collection I'd change my mind about the temps. That's the kinda guy I am. These guys I've met have led me to believe that 92-94 is playing it (dangerously) too safe. Based on that, I didn't want this guy immediately believing he killed his snake because he kept it at 85.

At the end of the day, you are right about my lack of experience. I'd really like to see what the doctor says about his snake.

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Name one of them Please!

I need to know who Not to buy from in the future..

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There are expos by me (north Chicago) every other week that I've been going to. I just dug up some of the cards...
Ron Billingsley Reptiles @ www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com
I just checked the link and it's garbage though. I talked to Ron a good deal.
Here's another
www.ballpython777.com These guys too agreed with Ron's 88.

These are all I have in front of me... I think a few others are in my car. I'm hitting the sack in a sec, but I will post back tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

not a possible RI from a temp of 85 degrees.

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What in the world are you talking about? Who said anything about a snake getting a respiratory infection at 85 degrees ... temps need to be much cooler than that to cause an RI ... I guess you just don't "get it".

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

And, again, I said that your point about the size of the tank (I have a 20 long compared with his 30) with the 85 on the warm + winter was a good one.

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Yeah, that would be because I know what I'm talking about ... I make my living breeding and selling ball pythons.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

I'll be sticking to my 88 solely because the BP owners I have met in person at expos strongly disagree with this forum.

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Yeah, and I've met people at expos that have said it's ok to keep ball pythons on cedar and feed them 3 or 4 jumbo rats a week. If you look hard enough you can find someone to tell you anything you want to hear. The fact is that the biggest ball python breeders on the planet keep their snakes on a 92 - 94 degree hot spot and it works.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

Maybe if I met you in person, talked with you for a few, and saw your collection I'd change my mind about the temps. That's the kinda guy I am.

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Lucky me.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

These guys I've met have led me to believe that 92-94 is playing it (dangerously) too safe.

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I don't even understand what that means? First 92-94 is too hot and now it's too safe? I have 500+ ball pythons right this very second sitting on 94 degree hot spots ... they are fine. What aren't you understanding?

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

Based on that, I didn't want this guy immediately believing he killed his snake because he kept it at 85.

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No one is talking about 85. What I am saying (that again you're not understanding) is that with no heat on the cool side, those temps could have gotten down into the low 70's or high 60's which can and certainly will cause a URI.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

There are expos by me (north Chicago) every other week that I've been going to. I just dug up some of the cards...
Ron Billingsley Reptiles @ www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com
I just checked the link and it's garbage though. I talked to Ron a good deal.
Here's another
www.ballpython777.com These guys too agreed with Ron's 88.

These are all I have in front of me... I think a few others are in my car. I'm hitting the sack in a sec, but I will post back tomorrow.

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I guarantee that none of those guys will tell you that temps in the low 70's or high 60's are good for a ball python ... get it yet?

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

No one is talking about 85. What I am saying (that again you're not understanding) is that with no heat on the cool side, those temps could have gotten down into the low 70's or high 60's which can and certainly will cause a URI.

-adam

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No, I understood you completely. And I admitted the mistakes in my observations & gave you credit in my previous post. You managed to take everything I said completely out of context. Christ adam, you may own 500+ ball pythons, but I don't appreciate your response.

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

Christ adam, you may own 500+ ball pythons, but I don't appreciate your response.

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WHOA NOW!
I think you may want to re-word that. Adam was clearly informing you that what you have heard and read is not best or right thing in favor to the snakes. Maybe I missed it, but how long have you been in to ball pythons/owned a ball python? I know you wrote you are more like a "PG rating".

Adam is a very good breeder who knows his stuff. I'd listen to it and I have listened to a lot of his advice aka wisdom. There are a lot of other breeders here who will back up what he has told you. He's not making any of this up. People who keep their snakes living in those cold temps - will end up with a dead snake no doubt who died probably from a RI which are not nice things to die from!

I work for a guy who keeps his BP's thriving in 93-95 degree and has all his breeders set at 100 right at this very second. They have been in that 100 degree heat for over a month now. Everyone is still alive and fine. He's been doing that for years so I've been told and I don't have any reason not to believe it.

Who cares if people aka breeders you know and who you have talked to at Expo's/Show's, etc don't like this site. You? Don't like it then leave. But I do encourage you to stay a while and learn from some really great BP owners and breeders here. We don't tell people to do wrong things with their animals, but I can whole heartily say that most of the people here will jump right in and help you when you have a problem or question concerning your snake.

Adam is undoubtedly an extremely knowledgable person, and I'd follow his advice any day...I learn something everytime he goes off on a rant like this.

However....he's not always very tactful or polite, and sometimes he's downright pissy and abrasive. If I was on the receiving end of this last thread, it would certainly have rubbed me the wrong way.

It's quite possible to re-educate someone without putting them on the spot, particularly when that someone admits they don't know as much and are willing to learn.

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Originally Posted by slartibartfast

Adam is undoubtedly an extremely knowledgable person, and I'd follow his advice any day...I learn something everytime he goes off on a rant like this.

However....he's not always very tactful or polite, and sometimes he's downright pissy and abrasive. If I was on the receiving end of this last thread, it would certainly have rubbed me the wrong way.

It's quite possible to re-educate someone without putting them on the spot, particularly when that someone admits they don't know as much and are willing to learn.

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If you re-read the thread...look at each post he made. He started out friendly and helpful. When the person didn't want to hear it and dismissed his advice based on information from other unnamed "breeders," he became a little more direct with each post and called the person out on it.

Sure, its possible to re-educate someone without putting them on the spot. But if that person won't hear it and chooses to defend their ego instead of absorb the right information, at least other people looking at this thread with an open mind will know what source of info is good and what source is doo-doo. I think thats what its really all about.

i am so sorry for you loss. loosing a beloved pet, regardless of what kind leaves a whole in your life. :hug:

i would like to thank you though for this wonderful learning experience for the rest of us. adam is a wealth of knowledge and reading his words in this thread teaches us all a little something.

sending healing hugs your way!
aleesha

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Originally Posted by slartibartfast

Adam is undoubtedly an extremely knowledgable person, and I'd follow his advice any day...I learn something everytime he goes off on a rant like this.

However....he's not always very tactful or polite, and sometimes he's downright pissy and abrasive. If I was on the receiving end of this last thread, it would certainly have rubbed me the wrong way.

It's quite possible to re-educate someone without putting them on the spot, particularly when that someone admits they don't know as much and are willing to learn.

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Jess,

Thank you for the kind words and the your very honest feedback ... I completely understand your point of view and don't blame you at all for feeling the way you do.

It was 3 in the morning and while all I was doing was trying to be helpful, I had someone with almost zero experience telling me that keeping ball pythons the way I have been keeping them for 20 years (and enjoying a good deal of success with my collection BTW) is wrong ... abrasive is hardly the word for how I was actually feeling when I was posting last night ... I tried my best to be respectful to the site and believe me when I say it could have gone down a lot worse.

My number one pet peeve is when people new to or experienced in the hobby get on the internet and try to tell everyone how things "should be" and don't appreciate or respect that others with orders of magnitude more experience working with these animals (and I'm not just talking about myself here, I'm talking about the ball python community as a whole) are probably somewhere doing things differently with great success.

In the two+ years I've been a member here I've preached and soap boxed and screamed one basic principle over and over and that is this: "There are many ways to keep these animals successfully" ... When people can't or refuse to respect that I get more than a little agitated just as I would if someone were to tell me how I "should be" raising my child, what my religion "should be", or attempt to decide any other thing for me based on their own personal beliefs.

I think it's entirely possible to share the way you do things and what you believe in without telling others that what they're doing successfully "doesn't work" just because it's not the way you do it ... But I guess not everyone does.

If expressing my views or standing up for what I believe in rubs some people the wrong way ... I don't care ... All I can do is be myself ... I don't pretend in being "someone else" just for the sake of people liking me or selling animals ... the compromise just isn't worth it to me.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

There are expos by me (north Chicago) every other week that I've been going to. I just dug up some of the cards...
Ron Billingsley Reptiles @ www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com
I just checked the link and it's garbage though. I talked to Ron a good deal.
Here's another
www.ballpython777.com These guys too agreed with Ron's 88.

These are all I have in front of me... I think a few others are in my car. I'm hitting the sack in a sec, but I will post back tomorrow.

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Folks all i have to say is notice where he "got his info" (as in place) from.This should explain his confusion of the PROPER temps needed for ball pythons.Now back to our regular program :8: :8: .

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Jess,

Thank you for the kind words and the your very honest feedback ... I completely understand your point of view and don't blame you at all for feeling the way you do.

It was 3 in the morning and while all I was doing was trying to be helpful, I had someone with almost zero experience telling me that keeping ball pythons the way I have been keeping them for 20 years (and enjoying a good deal of success with my collection BTW) is wrong ... abrasive is hardly the word for how I was actually feeling when I was posting last night ... I tried my best to be respectful to the site and believe me when I say it could have gone down a lot worse.

My number one pet peeve is when people new to or experienced in the hobby get on the internet and try to tell everyone how things "should be" and don't appreciate or respect that others with orders of magnitude more experience working with these animals (and I'm not just talking about myself here, I'm talking about the ball python community as a whole) are probably somewhere doing things differently with great success.

In the two+ years I've been a member here I've preached and soap boxed and screamed one basic principle over and over and that is this: "There are many ways to keep these animals successfully" ... When people can't or refuse to respect that I get more than a little agitated just as I would if someone were to tell me how I "should be" raising my child, what my religion "should be", or attempt to decide any other thing for me based on their own personal beliefs.

I think it's entirely possible to share the way you do things and what you believe in without telling others that what they're doing successfully "doesn't work" just because it's not the way you do it ... But I guess not everyone does.

If expressing my views or standing up for what I believe in rubs some people the wrong way ... I don't care ... All I can do is be myself ... I don't pretend in being "someone else" just for the sake of people liking me or selling animals ... the compromise just isn't worth it to me.

-adam

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Great post Christ Adam! People hate to be told that something they are doing may not be right. I know what's what and who to believe. Guys like Adam, RDR, PKR, NERD...Real deal breeders that get it done, year in and year out. Nothing against the Billingsley's and Petros's of the world of course, but they don't even compare in terms of experience. Believe what you like but don't get all pissy when someone tries to set you straight.

I do have sympathy for anyone that chooses to challenge Adam on his board. :D At the same time, his success speaks for itself.

In VPI's new book, they recommend ambient temps of 78-80 degrees and a "basking" spot of 86 degrees.
At the same time they deny having quantifiable data on the "ideal range of temperatures"...

To each his own.

Not to change the topic of where this post was going and the > um < cough>
debate on temps but did anyone notice the location of the poster who's bp died??

It's San Juan PR. Now I have only been to PR about 4-5 times in all different seasons but very seldom does it get cold there. Mostly in the low 80's.

I am wondering how with a heat lamp it was only 85? And a whole lot of places do not have A/C. For the tank to get in the low 70's I think would be a tad hard.

Something seems off.

That's something I also noticed when reading that book.

As a matter of fact, they do not provide any supplemental heating to their ball pythons except to brooding females.

They are also located in Texas, so the climate there is much more conducive to keeping reptiles.

Just goes to reinforce Adam's point that there are many ways to successfully keep ball pythons.

Haha, Brad you're funny :) It's currently about 27 here(central TX) with ice and yuck everywhere. I want to go curl up with some my snakes in their warm tubs. "Anyone have an open tub in their rack I'd fit in?"

Mine are kept at a constant 84/95, humidity ranges from 52-60% and are happy, healthy, eating VERY well, etc. No one has neurologic problems, and no one has burnt bellies. Warm Balls are happy Balls are feeding Balls are breeding Balls. Which also makes for a happy Ball Keeper :-D

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Haha, Brad you're funny :) It's currently about 27 here(central TX) with ice and yuck everywhere. I want to go curl up with some my snakes in their warm tubs. "Anyone have an open tub in their rack I'd fit in?"

Mine are kept at a constant 84/95, humidity ranges from 52-60% and are happy, healthy, eating VERY well, etc. No one has neurologic problems, and no one has burnt bellies. Warm Balls are happy Balls are feeding Balls are breeding Balls. Which also makes for a happy Ball Keeper :-D

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I'm just impressed with how many times you said Balls in that post!

Yes, well, I aim to please! *giggle* :cool:

Not to drag things too far afield from the great temperature debate (:P ) ....but something that came almost immediately to me when reading the original sad post...


He says he's had the snake for a year, but describes it as 15-18 inches long. That does not sound like a snake that is thriving and growing. My first guess would not be temperature issues (although I agree that they were likely cool enough to cause RI as well)....but I thought "parasites." The snake ate...but if internal parasites were leaching off all the nutrients, the poor thing would not have grown...and eventually starved to death. :(

But whatever the cause, I am very sorry for your loss.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Haha, Brad you're funny :) It's currently about 27 here(central TX) with ice and yuck everywhere. I want to go curl up with some my snakes in their warm tubs. "Anyone have an open tub in their rack I'd fit in?"

Mine are kept at a constant 84/95, humidity ranges from 52-60% and are happy, healthy, eating VERY well, etc. No one has neurologic problems, and no one has burnt bellies. Warm Balls are happy Balls are feeding Balls are breeding Balls. Which also makes for a happy Ball Keeper :-D

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Wow...and it was 75 degrees here yesterday in VA...the world must be coming to an end, I know it.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Wow...and it was 75 degrees here yesterday in VA...the world must be coming to an end, I know it.

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yeah i was thinking the same thing.it's been so cold here(like in the 30's-50's) that i think it's gonna be a new record since it never gets this cold in SoCal.

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Yes, well, I aim to please! *giggle* :cool:

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AKA having a BALL :P ,sorry i could not resist!

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Originally Posted by Sadie

I do have sympathy for anyone that chooses to challenge Adam on his board. :D

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LOL I do to! Buuuut I also really like it when Adam doesn't beat around the bush and make it all worded sweet and nice. Sweet and nice is good but being blunt and honest is a good thing too. I'd rather have someone straight up tell me how something is, is supposed to be, or that I'm wrong, etc instead of acting nice and stepping on eggshells with what they have to or need to say/tell to me..
Have I gotten my feelings hurt/stepped on while being here? OH YEAH and I'll admit Adam and others have told me "off" on how stuff is and that hey I'm wrong and why I'm wrong. Did I listen to them - OH YEAH! Did I learn something from it - YUP! :)

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

Warm Balls are happy Balls are feeding Balls are breeding Balls. Which also makes for a happy Ball Keeper :-D

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That has to be my new favorite quote!!

That quote needs to be in the night drop :)