cinnamon pastel vs. black pastel

can someone please explain the difference in cinnamon pastels and black pastels? genetically speaking--not visually.

on RDRs site they are listed as:

"Genetic Morph: Cinnamon Pastel, Black Pastel, Cinny
Status: Proven Co-Dominant
When: 2002
By Whom: Graziani Reptiles, Gulf Coast Reptiles ( first to produce Super in 2002 ) BHB and Ian, I believe were the first to call their lines 'Black Pastels'"


however, i have read here that they are not actually the same/not 2 different names for the same morph ...

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Originally Posted by mlededee

however, i have read here that they are not actually the same/not 2 different names for the same morph ...

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They are visually different and genetically the same.

Hope this helps. :D

(people working with either one or the other like to jump and and down to try and say that one is better than the other, but that's just marketing ... look at the individuals, look at the combos that they make, and get what ya love ... can't go wrong doing it like that! ... I've got both and I think that they both rock!!! :D)

-adam

thanks adam that totally makes sense. i can see the difference visually which is why i was asking what the difference is genetically. all's clear now! :gj:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

(people working with either one or the other like to jump and and down to try and say that one is better than the other, but that's just marketing ... look at the individuals, look at the combos that they make, and get what ya love ... can't go wrong doing it like that! ... I've got both and I think that they both rock!!! :D)

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:sweeet: Too true. There are many different lines and many combos with even more confusing names to go along with them (Silver Bullet, Silver Streak, Pewter, Sterling Pastel, etc.). When it comes down to it, buy the snake... not the name.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

They are visually different and genetically the same.

-adam

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I'm confused.

:confused:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

look at the individuals, look at the combos that they make, and get what ya love ... can't go wrong doing it like that!
-adam

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Originally Posted by xdeus

When it comes down to it, buy the snake... not the name.

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absolutely. now the problem is deciding which i actually do like best... i'm thinking maybe the black pastel, but well, they both have qualities i like! :)

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

They are visually different and genetically the same.

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To clarify my confusion....

Do you mean the same allele codes for these two different traits? So it is an environmentally induced difference? Or are we talking about multiple alleles at one locus?

What happens when you cross a black pastel to a cinnamon? IS this known?

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

IS this known?

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Yes. It's been done lots of times. :D ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Yes. It's been done lots of times. :D ;)

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Have those Supers been bred back to normals? I'm wondering if it is similar to the Mojave/Lesser breedings or is it different?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I'm wondering if it is similar to the Mojave/Lesser breedings or is it different?

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You just might be on to something. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Have those Supers been bred back to normals? I'm wondering if it is similar to the Mojave/Lesser breedings or is it different?

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What do you mean super? When you breed a black pastel to a cinnamon do you get another morph that you are calling "super"?

Are you thinking that Black Pastel and Cinnamon are alleles of the same gene and that both are expressed at the same time such that the Black Pastel allele is codominant with Cinnamon? If this was true then when you breed the Super back to a normal, you'd expect 50% Black Pastels and 50% cinnamons.

If i'm not mistaken it is similar to differnt types of pastels, they look different but if you breed them together they still make a super. Cinamons and black pastels look different but still both make supers with each other.

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Originally Posted by mlededee

thanks adam that totally makes sense. i can see the difference visually which is why i was asking what the difference is genetically. all's clear now! :gj:

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Can someone post some good explemary pics (or links to pics) of each morph so I can see the difference?

cinny pastels:
http://www.albeysreptiles.com./image...ast06_3ks3.jpg
http://www.prehistoricpets.com/images/animals/Rock3.jpg

black pastels:
http://gcreptiles.home.comcast.net/p...astels1807.jpg
http://gcreptiles.home.comcast.net/p...Pastel2500.jpg

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Can someone post some good explemary pics (or links to pics) of each morph so I can see the difference?

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Here is a pic of my Cinamon. I think she is a classic example of a cinamon pastel. Lots of flames and more reddish/orange coloring. I know some one out there has great black pastel pics and if you look at both of them you will see how much darker the black pastel is with less red/orange tones.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...FlamingHot.JPG

The first Cinny was a Graziani line.






https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...insational.JPG
This one is the BHB line Cinamon a little different but not a black pastel.


I know some one has a black one out ther for comparison.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

What do you mean super? When you breed a black pastel to a cinnamon do you get another morph that you are calling "super"?

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Yep.


Here's a pic of my BHB Cinny. As you can see, it looks more like a black pastel from the previous links than the cinnies. There a lot of Cinny/Black Pastel lines out there, and the distinction is pretty blurry.

http://www.superiorserpents.com/pubpics/cm02s1.jpg

Lawrence your cinny is smokin man, Wow

Thanks! :colbert2: Hopefully I'll have a few more of these cuties this spring. My male seems to go from Don Juan to Don Knotts depending on his mood...

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Yep.

Here's a pic of my BHB Cinny. As you can see, it looks more like a black pastel from the previous links than the cinnies. There a lot of Cinny/Black Pastel lines out there, and the distinction is pretty blurry.

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Ok thanks for the pics and links everyone everyone--I'm starting to see the visual difference.

So is the "super" that you get from a cinnamon x cinnamon cross different looking than the "super" you get from a cinnamon x black pastel cross? from a black pastel x black pastel cross?

http://www.grazianireptiles.com/coll...uper_cinny.htm

Here's the super I know of the super cinnamon (homozygous for cinnamon and resulting from a cinnamon x cinnamon cross).

the black pastels are generally a little darker than the cinny's. they kind of have a different tone to them. someone sexy told me that the blacks make darker pewters and supers on average...



https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../6/9/blkf2.JPG


vaughn

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Originally Posted by kavmon

the black pastels are generally a little darker than the cinny's. they kind of have a different tone to them. someone sexy told me that the blacks make darker pewters and supers on average...

Also you can breed a pastel to a black pastel and do the same breeding with a cinnamon pastel and the offspring will be different? now how can that happen if they are the same thing? It is my belief that black pastels and cinnamon pastels are different! not a heck of alot difference, but enought that you can make different morphs with these. :eek:

Vaughn, very nice black pastel! :gj:



https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../6/9/blkf2.JPG


vaughn

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

Vaughn, very nice black pastel!

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Thanks ED. ;) :P

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Thanks ED. ;) :P

-adam

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ok, stop picking the wound man! the yb is bad enough!!
thank charmaine for picking the bigger house without a
GARAGE! :(


vaughn

Here is a pic of a Black Pastel I produced last year...My original Blacks came from Ian G.
Jon

'06 Black Pastel female
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...kpastel3-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by kavmon

ok, stop picking the wound man! the yb is bad enough!!
thank charmaine for picking the bigger house without a
GARAGE! :(


vaughn

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Your loss is my gain? :D:D:D

-adam

Jon sweet black pastel !

Here is mine.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p...Picture108.jpg

Sorry, Mine is Ian G. line Black Pastel.

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Originally Posted by Harold

Sorry, Mine is Ian G. line Black Pastel.

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Sounds like if you're in the market for a black pastel, without a doubt, Ian G is the guy to see!! ... Sweet blacks everyone!! ;) :sweeet:

-adam

damn, mine is an big G. line too! everyone in va have a black from him? :D



vaughn

I guess it's a popular line in VA. LOL

I did not get her from Ian I bought mine
from Jon from Cold Blooded Addictions.

I bought my pair back in' 03...Ian G.and Greg G. were the only ones who had any available...Ian was the only one with a female available so I went with him...Plus he's only an hour away from me...

'03 Black Pastel female and '03 Blonde Pastel male 50% het Ghost...
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/...s_logo-med.jpg

Vaughn, sorry you had to rehome Blacky. I know adam will give him a great home. :) Just did not know he was going to rub your nose in it! :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

ok, stop picking the wound man! the yb is bad enough!!
thank charmaine for picking the bigger house without a
GARAGE! :(


vaughn

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oh! it ok, i can rub his nose in something else...:fishslap:


that's a female too, i'm sure adam can figure out something for her.

yeah getting a bigger house but less room for the snakes, go figure. it's only temporary, i see a nice addition in the future! :partyon:

edit: my wife is getting a bigger house.

vaughn

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

Vaughn, sorry you had to rehome Blacky. I know adam will give him a great home. :) Just did not know he was going to rub your nose in it! :P

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What makes it worse is that we just got off the phone and I was busting his ball pythons about it ... but Vaughn knows the deal ... the day he wants her back, he can just come and take her ... that's what friends is all about. ;)

-adam

that's really kind of you adam! just let me know when she hits 1500 grams then! :)



vaughn

The original question I presented was; If you breed a pastel to a black pastel and you do the same breeding to a cinnamon, and they produce different offspring? how can cinnamons and blacks be the same?

The Silver Streak is produced with a black pastel and can not be produced with a Cinnamon Pastel! :) http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...g?t=1169583780

Black Pastels. :) http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...g?t=1169584014

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

The original question I presented was; If you breed a pastel to a black pastel and you do the same breeding to a cinnamon, and they produce different offspring? how can cinnamons and blacks be the same?

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So you are saying that cinnamon x cinnamon, black pastel x black pastel, and black pastel x cinnamon produce three different types of homozygous animals?

-adam

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

The original question I presented was; If you breed a pastel to a black pastel and you do the same breeding to a cinnamon, and they produce different offspring? how can cinnamons and blacks be the same?

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It's called lineage ;). The Black and Cinnamon are the same genes, at the same loci. If they weren't, Black x Cinnamon crossings wouldn't produce anything.

That should read wouldn't produce supers or homozygous black/cinnamons.

What Im saying is breed a super pastel to a cinnamon and a black pastel and the offspring will be different! :eek:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

So you are saying that cinnamon x cinnamon, black pastel x black pastel, and black pastel x cinnamon produce three different types of homozygous animals?

-adam

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

What Im saying is breed a super pastel to a cinnamon and a black pastel and the offspring will be different! :eek:

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Be different or look different?

-adam

Adam I admit that the genetics are very close, kinda like cousins.


They will look different; Silver Streak out of the Blacks and a Silver Bullet out of the cinnamons. :)

Thats my take on it anyway. :)

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Be different or look different?

-adam

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

Adam I admit that the genetics are very close, kinda like cousins.


They will look different; Silver Streak out of the Blacks and a Silver Bullet out of the cinnamons. :)

Thats my take on it anyway. :)

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In Tracy Barkers book, she describes black pastels (aka labyrinths) and cinnamons as seperate "lineages" of the same mutation just as blonde pastels, lemon pastels, etc are seperate "lineages" of the pastel jungle mutation ... would you agree with Tracy or do you have a different outlook based on your experience working with these animals?

-adam

I agree with this statement, but honestly have little experience with these. the next couple years will shed some more light on these 2 morphs for me! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

In Tracy Barkers book, she describes black pastels (aka labyrinths) and cinnamons as seperate "lineages" of the same mutation just as blonde pastels, lemon pastels, etc are seperate "lineages" of the pastel jungle mutation ... would you agree with Tracy or do you have a different outlook based on your experience working with these animals?

-adam

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

Adam I admit that the genetics are very close, kinda like cousins.


They will look different; Silver Streak out of the Blacks and a Silver Bullet out of the cinnamons. :)

Thats my take on it anyway. :)

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I'm looking in the Complete Ball Python by Kevin McCurley and he states a Super cinny super pastel AKA silver bullet and super cinny pastel jungle AKA silver streak. page 168

Tracy Barkers book says Black pastel x pastel is a pewter and cross that pewter with a pastel makes a silver streak. page 57

On page 58 under cinamon it states a pastel X cinamon is a pewter and a pastel-super cinamon is a silver streak.

Are we confused yet? Anyway they are all beautiful snakes and dammit I'm gonna make one! LOL

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

The Silver Streak is produced with a black pastel and can not be produced with a Cinnamon Pastel! :)

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Ed,
Actually that is not true. The Cinnamons produce Silver Streaks also. There was some confusion a few years ago because Mark Mandic claimed to produce what he thought was a Super Pastel/Cinnamon that looked completely different from a Super Pastel/Black Pastel but he was proven wrong. Later that year both he and Greg Graziani produced a real one. :sunny:

Here is a picture of four of them. From top left corner going counter clockwise you have the Pastel Jungle, The Cinnamon, The Pewter, and then in the top right hand corner the Silver Streak. I produced the first three and Greg Graziani produced the Silver Streak. I added that picture to mine.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...br06_4past.jpg

Albey :)