Some conflicting advice...

Hi everyone

So I joined up last night and read through the stickies and about 15 pages of threads. I was very surprised about what I read.

I'm brand new to BPs (and reptiles in general). I had planned on getting a snake myself, but I was surprised with a one month old BP this Christmas, courtesy of my brother. We were out of town, so he just presented me with The Guide to Owning a Ball Python by John Coborn in a box while the snake was waiting for me back at his condo.

Before I flew home & picked him up, I read the book cover to cover twice. Then I got on the web & did more research. Some of the info on this forum is very different from the book.

Initially, I was going to (politely) post about being torn between the two advices, but then I thought to do an actual search on the book (duh). So I did.

After seeing what you and others have said about the book... heh... well, I'm a bit more inclined to up my warm side temps from the 79-88, to the ~90 along with the corresponding cold side temps. But I'm not totally convinced due to some of the behavior my snake is showing. Let me restate that I'm completely new to this.

I've got a 20gal long terrarium. The substrate is cypress. I have water dish that I refill every day. I've got two hides, one on the cold and one on the warm (soon these hides will be exactly the same after what I've read on this thread). I've got a heading pad on the warm side along with a 100w day bulb & a 75w blue night one in 12 hour shifts (also on the right side). My temps are 80-85 during the day, and 73-78 through the night. My thermometer is in the center of the tank, about 4 inches up from the bottom of the tank. This will soon be changed, I've already picked up two digitals - one for each side (which I'll probably dump for two accu-rites tomorrow anyway =)

My snake spends the entire day in the cold hide. I have a feeling this is due to two things - the snake's natural instinct, and the light being to friggin' bright. But at night... he still spends a lot of time in the cold hide (in 73-78ish temps). This is away from the lamp and the heating pad, and there isn't anything in the room scaring him to that side. Yeah, he'll come up and bask on top of the warm hide, but he doesn't say up there all the time (implying to me that he isn't really cold).

He already fed on a thawed pinky the one time I tried, no problem there. This was about 2 hours after I ended the day cycle.

What do you think about this?

Also, why the elimination of the day-night cycle? Is it because most of you don't use heating lights like I'm currently using (as opposed to ceramic heat emitters)? The light controlled day thing doesn't matter with sufficient natural light? Also, one of the terrarium stickies I read about containing heat with tin foil seemed to leave no room at all for effective ventilation.

Another question that I didn't see on the forum... I know that this is probably a very VERY obvious one, but I'm assuming it's bad to bug the snake in the hide, right? Like lifting it up when he's in it (in the event that it's a small box)?

My next step this weekend is to dump the substrate in the trash & replace with eco-earth, put my new hides and thermometers in, and give the tank a spray down with the Provent-a-mite that just got here in the mail today. I haven't spotted mites, but why not right? I'll also pick up a ceramic heat emitter; I'm almost convinced my day lamp is too bright.

I need to get shim sexed too. "Viktor" if male, "Vik" if female. =)

Anyway, thanks a lot for reading all of this. Let me know what you think.

Well with the light being on all the time it doesn't help keep your humidity where it needs to be. (50-60%) Also they don't really need the lighting unless for breeding purposes.
Snakes aren't social animals so it's normal they stay in their hides and it is ok for you to bother them as long as they aren't in shed or just fed. After you feed them you'll want to wait a day or two before you handle them again.
Temps should be ~90 on the warm side and ~80 on the cool. It should not fall below 75 at anytime or you risk gettin an RI infection and it's can cause problems with digestion.

If you haven't already you may want to look at the BP caresheet found here:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/modules....warticle&id=59


Hope this helps!

Bee careful with the advice you are given, there seems to bee alot of 12-14 year old experts that will freely provide anything you would like to know.

As far as using lights for heating your ball python, I would suggest a heating pad for belly heat. this has always worked well for me.

Good luck with the new BP, and dont hesitate to ask questions. :)

First of all, welcome to the forum! :)

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After seeing what you and others have said about the book... heh... well, I'm a bit more inclined to up my warm side temps from the 79-88, to the ~90 along with the corresponding cold side temps. But I'm not totally convinced due to some of the behavior my snake is showing. Let me restate that I'm completely new to this.

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Do you happen to know when this book was published? The longer ball pythons are kept in captivity, the more information that is learned from them, so information that may have been considered correct even 5 or 10 years ago, continues to be re-evaluated as more information is learned about them.

Two books that you may want to also pick up, are The Complete Ball Python, by Kevin McCurley of NERD (New England Reptile Distributors) published in 2005, and Pythons of the World, Vol II: Ball Pythons by Barker and Barker of VPI published in 2006.

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My snake spends the entire day in the cold hide. I have a feeling this is due to two things - the snake's natural instinct, and the light being to friggin' bright. But at night... he still spends a lot of time in the cold hide (in 73-78ish temps). This is away from the lamp and the heating pad, and there isn't anything in the room scaring him to that side. Yeah, he'll come up and bask on top of the warm hide, but he doesn't say up there all the time (implying to me that he isn't really cold).

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You mentioned that the hides were not identical. Have you tried switching the hides, with the one he's currently using the to warm side to see if he still chooses that hide? Ball pythons will choose security over thermoregulating.

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Also, why the elimination of the day-night cycle? Is it because most of you don't use heating lights like I'm currently using (as opposed to ceramic heat emitters)? The light controlled day thing doesn't matter with sufficient natural light? Also, one of the terrarium stickies I read about containing heat with tin foil seemed to leave no room at all for effective ventilation.

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Natural light provide enough of a day-night cycle. I don't use any supplemental lighting and provide all my heating through UTH's. You mentioned a heat pad - is it a human heat pad, or a true UTH? Are you controlling it with a thermostat? I found that lights really made keeping humidity up a challenge when I used a 20 gallon long tank - I've now since converted all of mine to tubs or a rack set up.

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Another question that I didn't see on the forum... I know that this is probably a very VERY obvious one, but I'm assuming it's bad to bug the snake in the hide, right? Like lifting it up when he's in it (in the event that it's a small box)?

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I do lift my hides when I'm checking over every one, or if I want to handle one of them. I usually give them a light touch on their side (since you can't tell if they're sleeping) to let them know I'm there and not startle them.

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He already fed on a thawed pinky the one time I tried, no problem there. This was about 2 hours after I ended the day cycle.

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Was this a pinky mouse or pinky rat? Most ball pythons are capable of eating a small rat pup or mouse hopper as their very first meal. A pinky mouse is really not much more than an appetizer, even for a baby ball python.

I hope I've answered most of your questions - I'm sure I've probably missed a few, please don't hesitate to continue to ask questions - it's how we all learn.

And again - welcome!

Just to add a couple of things to Robin's excellent post. The two different hides thing may be a lot of what is causing your snake to stick to one hide over the other. They tend to prefer a hide and refuse to leave it for another one that they don't like, even if it's really not in their best interest so identical hides are best. Don't run out and spend a fortune on fancy hides. Any small, dark, sturdy and easy to clean item that you can melt, cut or drill an entrance hole in will work (plastic is better than any cardboard product). Here's an example of a small plastic bowl from any dollar store turned into a lovely snug hide for a baby BP.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...chlingHide.jpg

Also you may want to add a lot of scrunched up newspaper to the enclosure. Young BP's are even more shy than the adults since they are preyed upon themselves a lot as youngsters. Add this to the openness of a glass tank and you can get a very stressed out snake. The newspaper trick isn't pretty but it has been proven to work with both small and larger snakes to help them settle in well. Once the snake is settled you can slowly, over a number of weeks, remove a bit of paper here and there until it's all gone.

Top view (yes there is a snake happily tucked away in there lol)....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ickTopView.jpg

Side view.....
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ckSideView.jpg

Welcome to BPNet and congratulations on your first BP! :)

yup. congrats on your new snake! These forums are great. They all have taught me so much. And try the crumpled up newspaper thing...i personally thought it looked rediculus, and i wouldnt do it, but then i got a snake that was stressed, and he has scince started eating.

good luck, and like somebody said (forgot who), dont forget to ask questions!! I have asked questions that have been asked about 500 times before and i always get a great answer nomatter what :D

One small detail I noticed... You shouldn't have to buy two Accurite thermometers. Just get the model that is made to measure indoor and outdoor temps. For you it can measure your warm and cool side temps and humidity as well in just one unit.

One Acu-Rite will do (about $12.00 from Walmart plus a AAA battery). Put the actual unit on the cool side, run the long thin probe wire over to the warm side and tuck the probe inside the warm side hide. I usually run the wire out and back in the enclosure to avoid the snake getting tangled in it. Push a few buttons and you should get....

IN Temp - the temp the unit is reading aka your cool side temp at substrate level
OUT Temp - the temp the probe is reading aka your temp inside the warm side hide at substrate level
HUMIDITY - ambient humidity of the enclosure

Acu-Rite's aren't perfect of course but they are a darned handy and cost effective method of keeping an eye on your enclosure environment.

Hey! Thanks for the welcomes.

I'm indebted to you for your replies. rabernet - you answered all of my questions. Especially the hide one - I had no idea these snakes prefer a secure hide over thermoregulating... I just figured if he was cold enough he'd find his way to the warm side. The pad is one from the pet store - unfortunately that's all I know because everything was pre-assembled by my brother when I picked it up. I'll be doing a major overhaul this weekend though.

In the meantime I'm going to try the newspaper thing along with picking up the good accurite. Thanks again for the warm welcome. =)

You are more than welcome! Don't know if you noticed but the titles of the two books I recommended are links to where you can purchase them. I have The Complete Ball Python and plan to purchase the second book this month.


Since you're re-hauling the entire enclosure - please also get a thermostat to control the temp of your UTH - they can overheat - and then your snake could be burned, unfortunately.

It could also be that he's not using the warm side, if it is heating up too much (hard to tell with the thermometer you're currently using, since it's not measuring the temps inside your warm side hid), and the thermostat can help you with that.

welcome to the forum. i don't have anything to add except... wow, what a great gift to get for christmas!!!!

if your brother picked up the heat pad from a petstore then it's a UTH (under tank heater) ;) no need to replace that. ;)

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

wow, what a great gift to get for christmas!!!!

;)

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Heck yeah! :)

You've got that right. It was a great gift.

I'll definitely get a thermostat too.

So my package came today with two new hides and some flexi-branches. I lifted the "experimental" cardboard pepsi 12-pack partial I was using and nudged him to make sure he wasn't sleeping. I picked him up to remove him so I could revamp his home and he went ape sh!t, snapping at me. I then dropped him (damnit...) about 3 feet onto a carpet. I totally believe what you all said about taking him out of his hide, I probably was too sudden or quick in doing so. I had him out for an hour last night and he loved it. I really hope he gets used to me (I know I can be unbearable at times).

I'll keep on keeping on. I appreciate all of your good advice and support. I'll definitely be spending some time on this forum.

If you're nervous about a bite from him, maybe get some gloves for taking him out, so that you don't react to his striking, and then once you have him out and settled, you can take them off.


I really think body language (yours) has a lot to do with it, animals sense apprehension and fear. I learned a trick from Adam, if any are in a strike position, and I need to go in their enclosure, I gently touch the top of their head with a water bottle, which causes them to duck their heads, then I just confidently go in and pick them up (if I need to move them).

Mine have learned pretty quickly that all that bravado isn't going to change the outcome (being picked up). I also keep my handling sessions short (about 15 minutes at a time) and once a day at most, some don't get handled every day, but they all get checked on daily.

Glad you plan to stick around! It's a great place!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

If you're nervous about a bite from him, maybe get some gloves for taking him out, so that you don't react to his striking, and then once you have him out and settled, you can take them off.


I really think body language (yours) has a lot to do with it, animals sense apprehension and fear. I learned a trick from Adam, if any are in a strike position, and I need to go in their enclosure, I gently touch the top of their head with a water bottle, which causes them to duck their heads, then I just confidently go in and pick them up (if I need to move them).

Mine have learned pretty quickly that all that bravado isn't going to change the outcome (being picked up). I also keep my handling sessions short (about 15 minutes at a time) and once a day at most, some don't get handled every day, but they all get checked on daily.

Glad you plan to stick around! It's a great place!

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Yeah, I think you're right, especially in the case tonight. I'm still a little "my God, I'm handling a snake" at this stage even though I constantly act like I'm tough. =D I'm certain that it's me that's the problem. So do yours strike a lot?

Welcome to the forum! You definately came to the right place.. :)
I was just wondering why you're changing the cypress to Eco Earth? Just curious..

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

Welcome to the forum! You definately came to the right place.. :)
I was just wondering why you're changing the cypress to Eco Earth? Just curious..

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I've read some good things about it regarding aesthetics and humidity. I don't mind the clean up thing. I've also considered newspaper too.

I get fanatical about new things and always try and provide the "best" possible scenario. Though I'm sure I've over spent and over worked myself with this philosophy once or twice... What do you think?

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

Yeah, I think you're right, especially in the case tonight. I'm still a little "my God, I'm handling a snake" at this stage even though I constantly act like I'm tough. =D I'm certain that it's me that's the problem. So do yours strike a lot?

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Hardly ever, unless it's feeding day - they love me!! :love:

Just kidding - my kiddos are used to me now, they do have their moods where they want to be left alone, but I haven't had one strike at me in some time. The younger ones are more prone to (just because they are the most vulnerable, and that's the only way they know to protect themselves).

Cool. =)

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Originally Posted by Quadrophenia

I've read some good things about it regarding aesthetics and humidity. I don't mind the clean up thing. I've also considered newspaper too.

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I think I spent the most money on my first, as I added, I became more practical - plastic bowls from Dollar Tree make fine hides, and much less expensive than the fancy ones at the pet store and the snakes only care that it's snug - they don't care what it looks like.

I also now use all tubs and a rack. I started with Cocunut husk bedding, then to aspen, and I've now gotten so tired of spot cleaning not really being clean, that I've converted all of them to newspaper - I LOVE it! So easy to clean when someone defecates or sheds and when it's clean - it's clean!

I'd probably be in your same boat if I was more of a BP veteran. I'm really tempted to use the newspaper. But I'm also tempted to build Vic a post-nuclear apocalyptic themed terrarium & I don't know how it well would fare... It's probably best I learn what it is to clean a tank before I switch to newspaper. It's probably inevitable with the pros, 'eh?

Hey, it's perfectly understandable - your first ball python, you want to make him a palace! Just don't make it too palatial, remember that smaller is better. Don't overwhelm him with too large an enclosure and you should be fine. We can help you "tweak" the rest! :D

Just remember with anything you put in your snake's home you will at some point be chipping a big dried urate off it so make your life easier and pick things easy to clean or soak. Dried urate is akin to portland cement by the way LOL.

Also nothing the snake can get into but you can't easily get it out of if the silly thing gets wedged in there.

As far as the nipping or striking it is something that all snakes can and will do. Some do it very rarely, some do it a lot more often and some just really never bother. You just don't know what they will do but eventually you learn your snake's unique cues and you'll react appropriate to that specific situation.

We have a snake here that while always hissy has never struck out. The other night he made a very credible attempt to bite my husband and he was not fooling about. He's in blue (shed cycle), it's the height of his first breeding season and I'm sure he was just NOT in the mood to have a big human hand in his enclosure giving him fresh water. No biggie really, just part of owning these fascinating creatures.

Develop handling habits and eventually your snake will come to know that you aren't going to eat it and it can't eat you. They tend to be most jumpy as babies when they are just as much prey as predator in the wild. Most calm down as they mature, some don't. We have 15 snakes of various sizes and species (plus 1 we adopted out), I've been bitten once. Most times they will hiss or jab out but it's really not a serious attempt to bite...just a "hiss off" attitude. :)

It is great advice, to keep the enclosure simple and easy to clean, especially with a new snake who could possibly have mites.. I would actually recommend newspaper as a substrate.. it is so easy to clean, and also easy to monitor fecal/urate matter and quantity, to see how things are going in that department.