Ibd

until now, i never knew that boas were carriers for ibd and they can infect a python with it. :eek: i house all my large snakes in the same room and so now i'm very concerned about this... esp with 4 balls coming from adam in the new year.

so... should i rehome my boas?

IBD acts very quickly in Pythons......."if" you had a problem you would probably already have seen some deaths and or other issues.

oh okay... thanks *whew*

I'd like to point out that BOAS can carry IBD for years without showing it, then infect pythons that are brought into contact with them.
If you HAVE pythons, and none have any sign of IBD, then I'd say you were safe, with your boas not being carriers. If you ONLY have boas, there is a mild risk.
University of Florida just did some studies, and they found that Boas can carry it for long periods of tiem(full-blown) and have no syptoms.
Wolfy

I really wish there were a test that cold tell you if your snake had it or not; unfortunately, everything I have read, says it can only be diagnosed postmortem..

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I really wish there were a test that cold tell you if your snake had it or not; unfortunately, everything I have read, says it can only be diagnosed postmortem..

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*Kills all his snakes* Damn, guess none of them had it :O

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I really wish there were a test that cold tell you if your snake had it or not; unfortunately, everything I have read, says it can only be diagnosed postmortem..

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I thought there was a test that they could do on a live snake to show its possible that it might have IBD.:confused: I can not remember what someone said on the Big Daddy Wholesell thread on fauna as Alan said he had some tests run.Of course i could be wrong and i am not going to reread that WHOLE thread again lol.The whole IBD stuff is just plain sad:( .

I heard if you can flip the boa on its' back and it has problem getting straight again, then there is a sign of IBD. I heard also that once a BP comes in contact, it will be dead within a few months time.

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Originally Posted by tmlowe5704

I heard if you can flip the boa on its' back and it has problem getting straight again, then there is a sign of IBD.

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That's only if the boa is showing symptoms (neurological problems being one of them).. it's pretty easy to tell if it has IBD then. Boas can be asymptomatic carriers.. that is the problem.

IBD kills pythons very quickly. Colubrids on the other hand are completely unaffected by it.

There's some sort of biospy test that can be done. However, I would imagine that not that many reptile vets know how to do the test.

The only full blown for sure test is done upon death.....however they can do other tests too look for "signs" to give you an idea.....but for anyone with both Boas and Pythons that are in the same room around the same tools etc.... you would more then likely know for sure by now.

From what I udnerstand, there is some kind of test you can have done while the snake is still alive, and it is costly.

i've had my hog since april and i purchased sabrina my rtb in august.

so what i'm hearing here (and reading in other threads - did a search) is... IBD isn't that common and you don't know they are carriers until the balls are dead?

so why do ball python owners even have boas?

Here's another thread that might help.... specifically post number 19.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=34597

so i guess my question still stands... should i get rid of my boas since i'm getting into ball morphs? (post #13)

Aleesha.. you do not need to get rid of them. If your boas have already been exposed to your pythons (ie handling one then the other without hand washing, or using the same husbandry tools etc) then you can be pretty sure they do not have IBD.

If you are still worried about it, you can keep your boas on permanant quarantine from your pythons.

I use the same tongs to feed everyone... as I had no idea it was a problem... so... even though I've only had them each for less than a year... I should be okay?

(thanks April)

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Originally Posted by Shelby

IBD kills pythons very quickly. Colubrids on the other hand are completely unaffected by it.

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But can colubrids carry it? In other words, can they act as a host?

from what i've read so far... nothing has been mentioned about colubrids so i would gather from that... the answer is no.

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

from what i've read so far... nothing has been mentioned about colubrids so i would gather from that... the answer is no.

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Here's what I found so far....

"It is unknown if other snake groups such as colubrids can act as hosts for the virus and potentially transmit it to other boids"

But this is perhaps a bit more troubling.

Its only one report, but bottom line is....I think we don't enough at this point to say one way or another.....Furthermore, Corn Snakes were probably never exposed to the retrovirus that causes IBD in boids before people starting keeping both coulbrids and boids in their exotic pet collections. Viruses, especially opportunistic retroviruses, can often easily jump from one species to the next.

Wow!
So I guess one bottom line for snake keepers would be to just keep different genera in different areas and use separate husbandry tools....to be on the safe side all the way around?

Also quarintine any new animal from your python collection, boa collection, corn snake collection, etc for awhile....I'm not sure how long exactly....maybe someone else can chime in on that. I'd have to say at least 30-60 days.

but... i've heard that IBD is an airborne virus... so keeping them in the same house isn't good enough. you need to have them in another building!

so i guess what i want to know here... from someone with a LOT of experience... is - are we overreacting (kinda like thinking someone is poisening our kids halloween candy) or are we being realistic (like kids being abducted from outside their own home)?

in other words... on a scale of one to ten... one being pretty much 'none existant' and the being "very very likely' - what is the chances of this being a real concern?

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

but... i've heard that IBD is an airborne virus... so keeping them in the same house isn't good enough. you need to have them in another building!

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Or a building with seperate ventilation for each species/collection room.

I wouldnt worry about it too much with cornsnakes...One report isnt enough to probably to warrant large scale changes in husbandry, in my opinion.

Still I think it highlights how much even those with a LOT of experience really dont know.

I too have been leary of this disease. I have had my boa for about two years now, and it still frightens me to think of IBD.. quite honestly, I never plan on getting another boa, since I guess that in having him for this many years, I feel that he is healthy; but there being no tests I have seen that can be done on the live snake, that isn't an option..
I definately go out of my way to not let anything that has contacted my boa, touch my BPs; being a virus, am I correct in assuming that it cannot be airborne (as bacteria can) and therefore can't infect through non-contact of bodily fluids, or touching an item that had touched the infected snake?
At any rate, I will and have never let my boa come into any physical contact with my BPs; and I go so far as to take a shower after handling my friends' boas, before even going into the room my BPs are in; I have worked too hard on getting these snakes, and invested too much money, to play around; they are not toys. And I am not a germaphobe; I will eat a sandwich and set it down right on a bale of hay out in the barn; I think I became immune to salmonella years ago, lol. But when it could hurt my animals..

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

I use the same tongs to feed everyone... as I had no idea it was a problem... so... even though I've only had them each for less than a year... I should be okay?

(thanks April)

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I would say yes.. especially since feeding tongs often get saliva from the snakes on them, and saliva is a perfect way to spread diseases.

That is interesting, Mendel (sorry don't know your real name. :) ) but I have never heard of a case of confirmed IBD in any colubrid.

The question now is.. is IBD airborne or not?

From the Merck Veterinary Manual online:

Inclusion Body Disease (IBD) of Boid Snakes:
Boa constrictors and several species of pythons are most commonly affected by IBD. Boas are considered to be the normal host for this retrovirus because so many (up to 50% of those tested) are infected and they can harbor the virus for years without symptoms. Early symptoms, possibly precipitated by any factor causing immune suppression, include a history of unthriftiness, anorexia, weight loss, secondary bacterial infections, poor wound healing, dermal necrosis, and regurgitation. In essence, IBD should be considered in every sick boa.

Typical findings in the acute phase of the disease include leukocytosis and a normal chemistry panel. As the disease progresses, white cell counts tend to decline to subnormal levels. Blood chemistry results are variable depending on how debilitated and dehydrated the boa becomes, but organ damage may appear. As the disease becomes chronic, some boas will exhibit neurologic symptoms ranging from mild facial tics and abnormal tongue flicking to failure of the snake to right itself when placed in dorsal recumbency and severe seizures.

Pythons are thought to be an abnormal host to the IBD retrovirus because the course of disease is more acute and neurologic symptoms more profound. In most pythons the acute symptoms that boas exhibit will be missed, and they will be presented with severe neurologic disease. While the active disease can linger for months or more in boas, most pythons die within days or weeks of the onset of clinical signs.

Exposure to this retrovirus appears to be due to a transfer of body fluids. Breeding, fight wounds, and fecal/oral contamination are common ways of transfer. Casual handling of an infected specimen and then a normal specimen does not appear to create enough viral exposure to cause infection. However, any immunocompromised reptile may be susceptible under the right circumstances. The snake mite is assumed to be responsible for the spread of the virus in large, well-maintained collections.

A tentative diagnosis is based on the history and clinical signs. Blood work will vary depending on the stage of the disease, but few diseases in snakes will cause such elevated white cell counts in the early stages. On blood smears, inclusion bodies are frequently found in the cytoplasm of leukocytes. One strain (3 strains have been isolated) of the virus frequently produces inclusion bodies in the cytoplasm of erythrocytes. The inclusion bodies are highly suggestive, but not 100% reliable. A definitive diagnosis is obtained via biopsy of internal tissues in which the characteristic inclusion bodies are found, eg, the liver, kidney, esophageal tonsils, and stomach. An ELISA is being developed.

IBD is not curable, and many clients may choose euthanasia. However, individuals may elect to isolate their snakes and treat with supportive and palliative measures. It is essential to educate clients not to sell infected specimens or their offspring, as this has caused the disease to spread worldwide.

Here is the direct link: Merk Veterinary Manual IBD link.

Very interesting.. especially that up to 50% carry it.. huh.

Seems like it is not airborne.

*hugs the Merck Manual* I love that book!

I have a 3 year old, 2.5ft male boa that was housed with a 3 year old 2.5ft male Ball Python for the entire duration of their lives(well, 3 years and now are separated and obviously so much less stressed, as the Ball ate 2 days after being here:) and about ate my face off, haha). So anyway, on to the basic point. This boa clearly didn't carry IBD or any other disease, same goes for the Ball Python. They are both very healthy other than being small, and the boa is a bit on the thin side.

I think the main point of this thread is to buy from the best possible breeder you can find, who is well-respected and has a great(and spotless) reputation. It would also help to talk with others who have animals from that specific breeder, asking about the health of the animal(s), growth rate, temperment, etc.

So anywho... Not every Boa you buy from a Pet Store is going to carry the plague(IBD) and not every Boa you get from a "breeder" is going to remain healthy. Just do ya research and be confident in who you buy from!

so... it's too late. i already have drake in my collection. if you remember... when i got drake from a respected breeder in my area he came with mites. then i found out he was a cross instead of pure as i had made clear to the breeder in emails, over the phone and in person that i only wanted a 100% pure hog island.

he houses all his snakes in the same building. even held the hog islands and then walked over and picked up his new bumble bee ball to show us.

later, when i confronted him with the confirmation from this site and from another that drake was not pure, but in fact a cross... he admited that he purchased drake and didn't really know what he was.

so... my longwinded point here is this: IMO, with what i know now... i did not get him from a respected breeder!

i purchased some Provent A Mite (PAM) and treated my entire collection.

when i purchased sabrina... rtb - she also came with mites. used PAM on her and she became mite free.

so... although i 'thought' i was getting them from respected, good, healthy places... i was wrong. so now... on the eve of my CITES going through and adam sending me my 4 new morphs... i think it's important for me to find new homes for my two boas.

i hate to do it cause i really love them... but i can't take a chance. i'm glad i got this info before anything happened instead of after it was too late.

okay so after a long conversation with jo... this is what i'm going to do.

we are moving the boas into the living room to live. the balls and come coulibrids will live in our bedroom (snake room).

i'll be buying a new set of tongs and marking them as "BOA ONLY"

i'll make sure the balls are taken out in another room... and the boas have 'slither space' in the living room.

also... if a boa refuses a meal (which i'll find amazing in itself LOL) then i'll refreeze it marking it "for boas only"

thanks jo for helping me to work this out so i can keep all my snakes.

Posting this just to confirm my convo with you Aleesha and to share it with the forum as a whole (this is good stuff to discuss...anything to do with being careful and responsible is).

Okay Aleesha this is just my take on this and remember I'm no vet nor viral/bacterial specialist or whatever. Just someone who keeps both boa's and BP's.

Move the boa's out of the BP room into your livingroom or whereever is convenient for them to live away permanently from the BP collection (as in another room, closed door, etc.) Buy extra long kitchen tongs for the boa's (you need those anyways as they have long strike ranges). Keep them just for the two boa's. Have seperate ones for the BP's. Feed the BP's one night, the boa's another (always do BP stuff first, boa stuff afterwards and don't return to the BP's right afterwards). Basically normal quarantine procedures but you just do it day to day normal routine. Don't have them out together or exercised in the same area. If you feed f/t and offer a prey to a boa and it is rejected, refreeze it, mark it prominently as FOR BOAS ONLY. Never share rejected prey between any snakes really is best and safest IMHO.

We have both, have never had a problem and follow common sense stuff with them. It can't guarantee you won't have any problems hon, nothing can but then you could bring in a sick BP and have it kill a morph. Quarantine is a way of life especially when you are into some of the bigger dollar snakes.

In the end Aleesha this will be your call and no one can fault you for making the best decisions for your collection, both BP's and boa's.

:hug: thanks jo.

Anytime sweetie! You just do what you are doing, gather info from many sources, do your research and then make the best, most informed decision you can. That's always best.

informed decision is the vital part of this... thanks everyone for assisting me to make one.

Why not donate the tongs you currently have, as the boa only, and get the new tongs for the bps. If you need larger tongs, for the boas, make sure to sterilize the heck out the original pair!

the tongs aren't all that long... so i was going to use some bleach... to sterilize the tongs and all the other stuff (like the poop spoon) etc. and then use everything i already have for the boas... except the tongs.

i'm off to buy some tongs right now!

:D:D:D:D:D

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I definately go out of my way to not let anything that has contacted my boa, touch my BPs; being a virus, am I correct in assuming that it cannot be airborne (as bacteria can) and therefore can't infect through non-contact of bodily fluids, or touching an item that had touched the infected snake?

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No you are not correct.

Some viruses are airborne, it is just that this virus appears not to propagate by anything that creates biological aerosols (coughing, sneezing, wheezing, etc).

Influenza is caused a virus and it is airborne. The many viruses behind the common cold are transmitted through the air. HIV is a virus, but, as we all know from health class, it is only infectious in certain body fluids.

Bottom line, it all depends on the biology/chemistry of the particular virus and host.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

At any rate, I will and have never let my boa come into any physical contact with my BPs; and I go so far as to take a shower after handling my friends' boas, before even going into the room my BPs are in; I have worked too hard on getting these snakes, and invested too much money, to play around; they are not toys.

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I do not think this is an unwise practice. When I worked with laboratory animals at a large university, we had a separate room for each species. In addition, closely related species like mice and rats were housed on different floors. Moreover, if you worked with rats on one day, you weren't allowed to go to the mouse colony on the same day and vice versa.

We also had to don disposable booties, hairnets, and lab gowns every time we entered our colony. Traffic through those parts of the building was one-way. There are entrance-only elevators and exit-only elevators, etc.

These rodents were not nude mice, they had functional immune systems. But it takes years of hard work and tons of money to create a transgenic or gene-knockout mice. And institutions that do not use such precautions have had problems with murine viruses wipping out their whole mouse colony, etc. And no one wants to lose the only p53 knockout mice in the world.

Now most beginning reptile breeders are not going to have the ability to take these specific types of precautions. But I think you can take similar precautions like those described by Ginevive. These are not germaphobic , completely irrational fears!

I share this info because I think think it demonstrates the level of precaution should rise based on the level of the operation, the expense of the animals, etc. It comes down to your personal choices for your operation. Which is going to depend on your investment in your animals and the particulars of your stitution.

If I had a morph worth thousands of dollars or I was planning on producing such morph, I would try to house different species in different areas. I would only handle one species a day.

That's me and that's what I would try to do. There are many practical constraints here as well. Maybe there are not enough rooms to house the all the different types of snakes in different rooms.

Then the second-best decision is practical and feasible. House the cornsnakes and pythons in the same room, but segregate the boas in another room...Use seperate instruments for each and every species, etc. These are biologically-informed, practically-constrainted decisions! Very smart in my book.

There are some breeders on here that seem to concentrate only on one species. They likely base this decision on many business choices--not extending yourself to far, marketing, etc.....but they may also base this on biology--i.e. a knowledge of illnesses and the bad effects of pathogens jumping into new host species. Also food for thought.

Others seem to like to diversy their portiflio so to speak.....and not put all their eggs in one species....Again it depends on your personal/business plans.

By the way Shelby...my real name is Mike.

Aleesha, if you've had the boas for even a month, and the Ball Pythons are fine, chances are, they're going to be fine. If you had brought infected snakes into the house, and there had been even the slightest chance of cross-contamination, your Ball Pythons would already be infected and showing signs. Getting rid of them months after having them wouldn't have solved anything. Ya know?

When I got Sonja shipped here, she was quarantined for 6 months, because stress can sometimes bring about illnesses that were in hiding. She didn't show any signs of ANYTHING, so in November I brought her to my house, and everyone's been just fine.

Although I was bad and brought that rescue 3 year old boa into the house right after he was rescued. He is in a different room, but I figured that he isn't carrying anything deadly considering his tankmate for those 3 years isn't dead(male Ball). I need to name that rescue male Ball Python Petri(Petri dish :D ), Culture or Plague, hehe. He is handled last though, and I wash myself and chlorhexidine myself(shoes even) after messing with him.

thanks becky... that makes me feel much better. do you think i should move them into another room or is it your opinion that they should stay where they are (same room as the ball)

If you're comfortable with them in the room they are already in, I'd keep them there. If they were carrying anything, you would have already experienced some problems either with them or the Balls.

If it makes you more comfortable, handle the boas last and use a separate pair of hemostats/tongs :) I only have one set of 12" hemos, so they get used for Sonja. The balls eat live so I don't mess with them. I also use a pair of 12" tweezers for cricket-holding(when feeding geckos), or other small tasks.

Glad you're more reassured! :)

okay, we'll (my hubby and i) will discuss this further and decide where to keep the boas. i think we are going to move them into the living room... just for peace of mind. ;)

and definitely get them their own tongs and poop spoon ;)

it is very nice to know that... since we've had the boas for awhile now, that we are probably safe... ;) we defintely won't be adding any more boas into our collection though.

I'm hoping to add at least one more boa some day when Sonja has her first babies. Hoping one of her daughters will someday come back north to us. :)

IMO, if you're planning on aquiring any more Boas, it might be worth it to go ahead and set up an area for them in another room, so when you get another you won't be at a loss at where to keep it.

Definitely Jo! You may get a hypo baby(just for rescuing my big sweet girl from those TWITS) if I can find a nice, clean boy at NARBC! ;)