Breeding Loans

I recently struck up a conversation with a local ball python keeper in regards to this big virgin female I've got. As it turns out, she's got some males this season that are just gonna hang out and do nothing. I propose the idea of a breeding loan.

I've got a very basic grasp on the whole "breeding loan" thing, and wanted to start a thread for those who are interested in breeding loans. I'd like this thread to serve as a "how to", so to speak. Because i've never gone through with a breeding loan, my knowledge is only a little. I'd like to see some contribution from others who have been down this road before.

So based on what I've read, i feel that this is what needs to be done to keep things in balance:

First, a written agreement. Signed by both parties and a 3rd party witness. Anyone have an agreement they'd like to post up?

Second, Quarantine is a must. 99% of breeders keep their high dollar morphs very well taken care of. The chances of you running into health problems is slim to none, BUT....there is a risk, and this is no time to take risks!! quarantine for 30 DAYS AT LEAST...maybe even longer?

3rd, if all goes well, and we have eggs...i think it's only fair that the person who seeks the mate, should allow that person with the mate to have the first pick of the clutch..ESPECIALLY if you're loaned a morph!

Here's a question i have about that tho...suppose I have a high dollar morph and i need a nice big ol' female to make a nice big clutch? Who gets first pick?

The goal of a breeder loan is to make both parties happy. It should be an equal and fair opportunity for each to gain beneficial results.

So please, post up your thoughts/comments/suggestions on this topic. If your advice is to steer clear from breeder loans, please give an explanation on your thoughts. If you've gone through this before, please post your experience, and the pros and cons of your loan.

Thank you all!!

If I am not correct think there is a whole post on how we worked ours out with Eugene last year somewhere around this site. Lol Am shure jo knows were its located juts do a quick search you should find it. But sounds like you got the basics down. good luck

Yes found it hon! (for those that haven't figured it out yet, "McAdry" is my husband lol). Here you go Nate....

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...=breeding+loan

The fact is Nate most breeding loans fail miserably because there isn't a clearly written contract so misunderstandings occur or the parties involved rush into it and don't really know each other very well. I'm not discouraging you, I'm just saying like anything be careful and do your research (which you are doing...that comment's more for others reading this thread). Mike and I knew Eugene from BPNet but I still checked him out on the BOI, here and by asking folks privately if he was a good guy. I'm sure he did the same with us.

I couldn't find an example online so I just made our own contract. I sought the advice of very experienced breeders, I thought about every eventuality I could and then I thought about being fair and balanced for both Mike and I and Eugene (a fair contract is never written so it's heavily in anyone's favor). These are some of the points we agreed to in the contract.....

- listing of full names, addresses and phone numbers on all parties having any interest in the snakes involved
- Dollar value spelled out, based on current market prices for all snakes involved
- Breeding expectations spelled out, how often the male will be with the female, which female or females he will be with and ONLY those females (this is almost impossible to enforce but it must be spelled out)
- Care expectations for breeding, how many days in with females, how many days resting, etc. (no one needs their male snake burned out overbreeding(
- Who would do the quarantine, cooling, (you can be cooling them while in quarantine), breeding, feeding, husbandry, care of the eggs, etc. and expectations of care level
- Exchange of vet's information for both parties collections (not a release of info for the vet but more to confirm that both parties have herp vets available)
- How the clutches would be split (should be info on that in the link I posted here)
- What would happen in the event of a sudden death of any of the three animals covered in this contract
- Exchange of photographic evidence of each stage of breeding, egg laying, clutch pip, etc. with weights provided on the snakes and any eggs/hatchlings
- Allowance for retreival of the "visiting" snake by it's owner and under what conditions that would occur (you don't want someone suddenly taking their gravid female away and you get squat...but they need to be able to remove snakes immediately if you don't take care of them...protects you both)
- Agreement for future breeding back (line breeding) if anything "different" hatches out
- timelines - when the contract starts, when certain things could reasonably be expected to happen and when the contract will end based on evidence the breeding has been successful

That's all I can think of at the moment Nate but then I've only had one cup of coffee so far LOL.

Basically a contract isn't about saying you think someone will rip you off or wants too. It's just smart business and protects all parties involved and their snakes. It will never make a bad situation right but it can help enforce a promise made in writing. In the end though breeding loans are risky and no one should ever enter into one lightly or without due diligence.

I'm sure this wouldn't happen if you entered a breeding loan with the proper person, but since nothing is a guarentee in life I would like to include another suggestion. Perhaps a section of the contract that deals with the worst case scenerio of having to go to court because of breach a contract. Fees when pursuing legal actions and what not can be quite expensive and should be spelled out that the breacher of contract will be responsible for all costs associated with that breach if legal action is necessary. For example, the snake dies due to improper care and you need to be reinbursed, but the person you loaned it too now isn't your buddy and says take a hike etc.

Just a thought.

I have a contract that I used with my last years breeder loan. It went well, considering we only got 5 animals! If you want to take a look at it, please let me know.


You just have to know who to trust....

Heather it would be awesome if you could send it my way. I'd like to make a "template" in a Word document and post a link to it so people can just fill in the blank.

I will do that, and just let me know where to post, and I will. :)

great thread... i hope more info is shared...

thanks jo for taking the time to answer in such details!

Unfortunately Nate the contract we used was stored on our computer and was lost during our recent hard drive disaster. I do have a hard copy of it somewhere and will try to find it after Xmas is over. When we moved I know I packed it but darned if I can put my hands on it right now (I sooooo need a small filing cabinet!).

If you wanna e-mail it to me, NathanLedet@yahoo.com or you can copy and paste it in a PM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

great thread... i hope more info is shared...

thanks jo for taking the time to answer in such details!

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Yes great thread. I've just recently began talking with a guy who wants to do a breeding loan and I don't know where to start. So this is helping out.

Here it is...

Names have been changed, and the underlined information is what needs to be added in the event that you use it.

We both signed it, and got it notorized and sent the original copies to each other.

Use it well, and since I wrote it, I ask please that you do not use it in the intent to harm or abuse the priviledge of a breeding loan.

___________________________________________________________________


**** agrees to lend his _____ ball python to +++++ for breeding purposes from Month until such time as the breeding season is over, but no later than Specific Date if the snakes do not produce. ++++ will send her Morph to **** in accordance to the agreement in which the Morphs (****'s and +++'s) will be traded as collateral for the breeding season.
**** is responsible for the transportation (thru UPS, Fedex, or Delta Dash overnight) of morph snake to the residence of ++++ in an appropriately heated and controlled box and environment, and **** is likewise financially responsible for the transportation back to ++++'s residence in an appropriately heated and controlled box and environment (thru UPS, Fedex, or Delta Dash overnight) for the Morph.
If said snakes are received upon shipping as dead on arrival, either party must notify the other immediately within 24 hours. Either party must provide proof of the dead snake and send it back to the owner as soon as possible. A necropsy must be done to determine the mode of death, and if the fault falls on either party after the necropsy, said party will be held accountable.
++++ shall feed and house said animals in the appropriate fashion, and will send pictures and update **** on a weekly basis as to the health and housing of the snakes. ++++ agrees not to replace or steal said snakes, or intentionally harm or intentionally create an environment where said snakes will become ill.

If the female snakes, belonging to ++++, do become gravid and produce eggs, this shall be properly documented and photographed to send to **** immediately. The eggs shall be handled properly and if said eggs hatch, the share of the clutch is as follows: the clutch will be split evenly by sex and by morph, unless such time as there is an uneven amount of eggs, by which **** will acquire the final odd female hatchling. Normals will be given to ++++, but not if there is a large amount of normal females in the clutch. At no point will there be an uneven share of the hatchlings unless discussed and agreed upon. Every snake shall be documented and sexed accordingly, and be fed and cared for until which time as the hatchlings achieve a minimum weight of 100 grams. At that time and not before shall the hatchlings be sent to ****. If at this time the Morph is not sent back, they can all be sent back together with the hatchlings in the appropriate boxes. This contract will terminate when the duties described above have been completed.










++++++ ____________________________





Notary



_____________________________________________________________________

Personally I only do breeding loans with people that I either know really well or have dealt with and seen their animals a few times. The only time I'd do a breeding loan with someone out of state where we'd have to be shipping the animals is if I really, really, really knew the person well and knew that they take the best care ever of their animals. Right now I'm doing a breeding loan with my 2 normal females (their being bred to a Pinstripe male). I've bought an animal from him in the past, I see him all the time at shows, I've asked around about him, I've seen his animals, I've talked to him a lot, and we worked out how everything was going to work ahead of time. Breeding Loans can be great, but they can also mess things up if things go wrong (like one of the animals dying, someone ripping the other person off by either keeping all of the babies or the other person's animal or both, or if the females don't become gravid). That's why I wouldn't do a breeding loan with someone that I didn't know very well.

hi nate i still have the contract that Jo and I used i'll send it over if you like.