GAH - rat bite = pierced snake

I can't believe it, it happened right in front of my eyes!

I put a medium sized rat in Saharah's tub and of course Miss Garbage Disposal is waiting and ready. The rat walk/trots up to her to smell her.... she got ready, the rat moved and WHAM she got the rat on the side of it's face.... and the rat got her right on the neck as she coiled around it. I grabbed the tongs trying to get the rat to let go of her neck, but it didn't and I couldn't get it's teeth out of her. Finally she killed it and loosed her grip. I got the now dead rats teeth out of her skin and made sure she wasn't pouring blood or anything. Hardly any blood so I threw the rat back in to her, she ate it. I took her out for a better view and well that rat got her good! I'm not sure if it got her all the way through on both sides but she does have two gash's. I washed them out and sprayed some Bactine in to them. Hopefully they won't get infected. If so, I'll be seeing Dr. Gold once again. He's gonna get tired of seeing me soon.

http://www.willowdaisy.com/sahbite.jpg

another reason to never feed larger than a small rattie.

i'm so sorry to hear about this... hope she'll be fine without any additional care. :hug:

ah, rat bites suck

hope it doesnt get infected. things like this happen, take the bad with good, i'm always relived everytime i get a succesful live feeding

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

another reason to never feed larger than a small rattie.

i'm so sorry to hear about this... hope she'll be fine without any additional care. :hug:

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Agreed! Its just not necessary. Balls don't need that much food. They are already way overfed in captivity getting a meal every 7 days. A small rat is the biggest I ever go with even my largest girls.

If you can, clean the wound with a bit of chlorhexadine solution and put a bit of anitbiotic ointment on it.

i got my first rat "nip" with my male last feeding day. first i offered it to my female, she didnt eat so i threw it in with my male. it was freakin out and defending itself and ended up biting him.didnt pierce the skin but it did bend a scale or two. shouldnt have fed it because i knew it was alreadt stressed from being in my females cage. i should've known and i shou;d've let it calm down. dumb move on my part.

i wouldnt feed for a couple weeks, to let the wound heal and to keep the snake stress free for a while.

That is one of the reasons some feed prekilled. I am not trying to start a huge "live versus f/t" debate, but pointing out this does very occassionally happen. I feed some of my snakes live and some fresh killed (or f/t). I'd personally just use some antibiotic on it and watch it for infection. (red, swollen, etc) - Note that you dont NOT want antibiotic with pain reliever in it.. just normal antibiotic, or even triple antibiotic.

Let us know how she does...

Another issue you may have now, if your snake may become 'rat shy'.

Rick

is there a humane way to 'stun' the mice/rats?

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Originally Posted by Rascal

is there a humane way to 'stun' the mice/rats?

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This is going to sound terrible, but you can slam them on something, which should kill them instantly. To stun and not kill, maybe putting the rat in a dark bag and shaking him a little or something might help. That way, I think, it should be disoriented enough for the snake to get him without any trouble. I just thought of that randomly... don't take my word for it.

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Originally Posted by Sausage

This is going to sound terrible, but you can slam them on something, which should kill them instantly. To stun and not kill, maybe putting the rat in a dark bag and shaking him a little or something might help. That way, I think, it should be disoriented enough for the snake to get him without any trouble. I just thought of that randomly... don't take my word for it.

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Neither humane nor particularly well thought out. Lets remember these are living creatures too. The answer is, feed nothing bigger than a small rat.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Neither humane nor particularly well thought out. Lets remember these are living creatures too. The answer is, feed nothing bigger than a small rat.

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True.. don't listen to me! lol

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Originally Posted by Sausage

This is going to sound terrible, but you can slam them on something, which should kill them instantly. To stun and not kill, maybe putting the rat in a dark bag and shaking him a little or something might help. That way, I think, it should be disoriented enough for the snake to get him without any trouble. I just thought of that randomly... don't take my word for it.

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very bad idea. now you have a disoriented stressed out freaked out rat!!!

EEK

For me stunning isn't the answer for a couple of reasons....it's unneccessarily inhumane to the rat and if your snake can't handle live prey in a natural state then it shouldn't be offered that prey at all. Keep to nothing bigger than a small (or two of them for a larger female if need be) and your snake will be much safer in the long run. Hope she heals up swiftly and with no complications.

ouch - hope she's ok for you lillyorchid



dr del

The only way to humanely kill a rodent as recognized by the American Humane Society is a CO2 chamber. You can build one yourself, and their fairly cheap to make. Not a bad idea either if you are going to continue to feed live. Just do a search on CO2 chamber or Carbon Dioxide chambers. :salute:

Here is a site that explains it all pretty well:

http://nwco.net/0531-StepThreeLethal...ideChamber.asp

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Neither humane nor particularly well thought out. Lets remember these are living creatures too. The answer is, feed nothing bigger than a small rat.

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Some people have snakes larger than BP's and probably want to know their options when it comes to larger prey.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

Some people have snakes larger than BP's and probably want to know their options when it comes to larger prey.

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Yes, some people do but this is a thread about bps in the bp section. ;)

My bad... :P

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Originally Posted by Rapture

Some people have snakes larger than BP's and probably want to know their options when it comes to larger prey.

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I'd still say to never stun prey. We fostered and fed a 6 foot BCI for 10 months and he ate live big rats, small bunnies and good sized guinea pigs without incident. I still say if the snake can't handle the prey then either feed it f/t or feed it smaller (and possibly multiples per feeding). In the case of this particular BCI he was very fast on the bunnies and the GP's and showed a more hesitant feeding response to the larger rats. He may well have had a rat incident in his past (though there were no bite scars). When we offered a particularily large rat we pre-killed it for him as we feel you cannot offer a large prey item like a big male rat to even a big snake if that snake isn't able to immediately, efficiently and safely deal with it.

My last issue with stunning is that you cannot in anyway real way judge just how stunned the prey really is. Live is live, dead is dead...stunned is way too variable for me to believe it's something you can consistently do and never mess up on. A prey item coming out of a stunned condition, hurt, stressed and freaked is not a prey item I want in with any of our snakes no matter if they are milks, BP's or BCI's.

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Originally Posted by Kojak

The only way to humanely kill a rodent as recognized by the American Humane Society is a CO2 chamber. You can build one yourself, and their fairly cheap to make. Not a bad idea either if you are going to continue to feed live. Just do a search on CO2 chamber or Carbon Dioxide chambers. :salute:

Here is a site that explains it all pretty well:

http://nwco.net/0531-StepThreeLethal...ideChamber.asp

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Agreed. Although people with smaller collections might not have the funds to continue to refill a Co2 tank once a month. I have to do the whack and dangle. I know it sounds rough but I a pretty strong guy and have been able to kill the feeder with-out a second whack. I'm sorry if this is a little graphic. I am investing in a Co2 tank now that my collection has grown.

Hope that heals up nicely for you.
I personnaly do not stun my snakes prey but, i know a couple people who do. they say they just tap them on the side of the tank on the way in. i never seen it done, i tihnk opening the boxs the rat comes in into the tank with a HUNGRY bp looking at them is stunning enough..lol.

If you care about being humane then knock it out with some CO2 or something first. If you don't care about being humane then knock it out with something blunt. With smaller prey you can flick it in the head hard with a finger and that usually works for me.

the people at the a pet shop arund here just bang them against the tanks glass and toss them in. dont think that is a good thing since most are pretty mad once they get their grip on reality back.

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Originally Posted by WTHbbqSnake

With smaller prey you can flick it in the head hard with a finger and that usually works for me.

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If I wanted to get in trouble I'd probably suggest something along the lines of you being "flicked hard in the head" ... but I'll refrain from violating the rules. :carrot:

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If I wanted to get in trouble I'd probably suggest something along the lines of you being "flicked hard in the head" ... but I'll refrain from violating the rules. :carrot:

-adam

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Yea you wouldn't want to sugest bodly harm to anyone.. LOL I mean what would that look like... LOL

:8: :fishslap: :groinkick :rofl: :fork: :bonk: :twisted:

I'm sorry to hear about your snakes injuries...

As far as rodents biting... even a small rat can do some damage to a ball python. I know somebody who lossed a 10ft burmese to a medium rat that bit at the right spot while it was being constricted...Both animals ended up dying.
I hear Mice are especially known for being biters.

I myself try to make sure the rodents are as comfortable as possible before introducing them to my snakes...I typically give them food and water. I also have food waiting for them in the feeding box I use as well...

It's a good thing you were there and watching everything...Just goes to show the importance of watching your feeding from start to finish...

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

even a small rat can do some damage to a ball python.

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I feed hundreds of small rats a week and have been doing so for a lot of years ... I haven't experienced anything like that.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Agreed. Although people with smaller collections might not have the funds to continue to refill a Co2 tank once a month.

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I have a 20oz Co2 bottle.. I feed a collection of over 30 snakes prekilled rats/mice every week. The bottle lasts me several months, and costs a whopping $3 to fill. :)

Also, get an ice chest, put a piece of dry ice in a critter keeper (the ones with the slits for air) and put the rats in the ice chest with the critter keeper. open it back up in 5 minutes and voila, CO2'd rats

also, try searching around for the baking soda/vinegar or whatever it is method.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Agreed. Although people with smaller collections might not have the funds to continue to refill a Co2 tank once a month. I have to do the whack and dangle. I know it sounds rough but I a pretty strong guy and have been able to kill the feeder with-out a second whack. I'm sorry if this is a little graphic. I am investing in a Co2 tank now that my collection has grown.

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This doesn't need to be very costly.

I made one years ago. It worked fine when I had a smaller collection of reptiles.

5 Gallon Plastic Bucket - Price New: $5
a 20oz Co2 Paintball Tank - Price New: $13.00
a Remote Line (coiled hose with valve for the tank) - Price New: $20 to $25

Install the Remote Line into the lid of the 5 gallon bucket. Make a small hole 'exhaust vent' hole that can be covered with your finger. Screw the 20oz tank into the other end of the remote. Place some rats in the 5 gallon bucket and slowly turn the knob on the Remote Line to allow a small amount of Co2 into the bucket while keeping your finger lightly over the exhaust hole. This Co2 will have a narcotic effect on the rats and knock them out. Now turn allow a little more Co2 into the 5 gallon and turn off the Remote Line valve and keep your finger over the exhaust hole. This will remove the air and replace it with Co2. The rats suffocate while unconscious, thus they feel no pain. You can than remove the Co2 tank and remove the 5 gallon bucket lid. It's best to do this is a well ventilated area. (i.e. outdoors)

You can even cut out some fluorescent lighting grate to fit into the bottom of the bucket if you want. This allows any waste to fall down and away from the rats so they they don't need to be cleaned before freezing.

Refills for the 20oz tank is generally just a $2 to $3.

For those interested.. you can find more info on the items listed above by going to Amazon and searching for...

"20 oz Paintball C02 Tank"

and

"Coil Remote W/QD & On-Off"

Rick

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I feed hundreds of small rats a week and have been doing so for a lot of years ... I haven't experienced anything like that.

-adam

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I'm not saying they WILL, but that they can...

we do have a stickie on the subject down in the feeder section of this forum.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=33850

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

I'm not saying they WILL, but that they can...

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True. That is evident by this thread. Anything with teeth can and will attempt to bite when attacked. Snakes are designed to kill rats, so they have a technique that works to avoid this, but now and then a snake can get nipped.

Feeding prekilled resolves this issue, but sometimes prekilled is not an option. If you feed live you can minimize possibility of nip damage with smaller rats, but there is always a slight risk. I personally fed a small (90gram) rat to 950gram Albino female ball and the snake waited a mere second and grabbed the rat by the neck and constricted. The rats mouth just happen to end up next to a coil and just bit. It did cause a wound that was visible but it healed up and went away after several sheds. I feed both live and prekilled, but this is now one of the snakes that gets only prekilled.

Everyone has opinions, it's all opinion. Yours, mine, his, hers.. No one is right, no one is wrong. Just use your common sense, read peoples opinions and make your own choices. If feeding live is for you.. good. If you think feeding prekilled or frozen thawed is best, thats good too. Either is fine as long as you snake is fed.

Rick

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

I'm not saying they WILL, but that they can...

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Lots of things "CAN" happen ... F/T and P/K rodents have sharp teeth and claws that "CAN" cut and puncture the soft inner tissue of ball pythons causing abcesses ... heating elements and thermostats "CAN" malfunction and cook snakes in their enclosures ... The reality is that live rodents "CAN" be fed to snakes week in and week out for years without any problems ... I "CAN" prove it. ;) :D :sweeet:

-adam

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

I personally fed a small (90gram) rat to 950gram Albino female ball and the snake waited a mere second and grabbed the rat by the neck and constricted.

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Try smaller rats ... I feed "small smalls" 40 -50 grams ... hundreds a week for many years ... never have a problem. ;)

-adam

I wack every rat in the head before i feed it off.. It's fun HAHAHA..

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

I wack every rat in the head before i feed it off.. It's fun HAHAHA..

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:O :confused: :O

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

I wack every rat in the head before i feed it off.. It's fun HAHAHA..

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not at all funny :colbert:

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

not at all funny :colbert:

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Wasnt trying to be FUNNY...

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Try smaller rats ... I feed "small smalls" 40 -50 grams ... hundreds a week for many years ... never have a problem. ;)

-adam

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Ok so my pet store I bought my BP from tells me to feed her a rat the same width as the widest part of my BP. I also bought an adult female from them and they told me to feed her mediums. She weighs 1500 grams. They gave me a medium rat to feed her and I couldn't believe the size of the thing I didn't think she would eat it. They were like oh ya for sure every 2 weeks. So I gave it to her she ate it fine I was shocked. So now I'm under the assumption thats what to do. These rats weigh like 150g.

So if you're feeding 40-50 gram rats to your BPs are you feeding them 1 rat every week or 2 -3 rats every week lets say for a 1500g female BP like mine?

and am I overfeeding my girl by feeding her a medium every 2 weeks? I feed F/T.

She can take that medium rat but should she is more the question. Feeding a live medium rat in an enclosed environment puts your snake at far too high a risk in my mind. Also larger meals like that will eventually trigger a fast most likely. It is also a lot of work to digest that big single rat for your snake. Better to feed that girl a nice small rat (or even two smalls once in a while) each week. You'll get a very healthy weight gain, a snake with a killer feeding response and a nice once a week feeding programme going on. It's been proven by some very experienced breeders that this is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Lots of things "CAN" happen ... F/T and P/K rodents have sharp teeth and claws that "CAN" cut and puncture the soft inner tissue of ball pythons causing abcesses ... heating elements and thermostats "CAN" malfunction and cook snakes in their enclosures ... The reality is that live rodents "CAN" be fed to snakes week in and week out for years without any problems ... I "CAN" prove it. ;) :D :sweeet:

-adam

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Adam,

Getting poked by a tooth and causing an actual puncture wound while eating a prekilled rat is indeed very, very unlikely. This can still happen with live food as well if it is really a concern of yours.

The fact is a live rat can and will attempt to actively bite a snake that is attacking it unless the snake is skilled enough to grab it perfectly on the first attempt. By making points that other things are astronomically possible doesn't make this possibility more unlikely. It does occasionally happen.

You have a great track record. For many years you have never had a rat bite a snake. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I know people who cross the road without looking and they have done it for years and are still very much alive.. but people die every year from getting hit by cars.. sometimes even when they did use caution. They however can not control the unpredictable driver of the car, who is drinking coffee and talking on the phone while driving.

A rat is an animal, a snake is an animal.. fact is that animals are unpredictable. There is no way for you to prove one way or the other.. It is indeed all opinion.

My opinion is that live is fine, frozen thawed is fine and fresh killed is fine.

Feeding live has a slight possibility of the snake getting bit, it does happen.

Feeding frozen thawed as the risk of feeding rodents that are not fully thawed

Feeding fresh killed has the risk of parasite, which is the same case as live.

As long as someone knows the risk, they can take the responsibility for their own choice. To say live does not hold any risk at all is, in my opinion, moderately irresponsible unless you state the exact sizes and circumstance that make this completely safe from nip damage. If you state that feeding live rodents that have not yet developed teeth capable of puncturing a snakes hide, then I will agree with you 100% whole-heartedly.

Either way, these are still merely our opinions.

This is a discussion.. not a personal attack.

Rick

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Lots of things "CAN" happen ... F/T and P/K rodents have sharp teeth and claws that "CAN" cut and puncture the soft inner tissue of ball pythons causing abcesses ...... The reality is that live rodents "CAN" be fed to snakes week in and week out for years without any problems ... I "CAN" prove it. ;) :D :sweeet:

-adam

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How many of your live rats after being succesfully constricted caused an abcesses in you snakes while or after being swallowed?

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

Adam,
Getting poked by a tooth and causing an actual puncture wound while eating a prekilled rat is indeed very, very unlikely.

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Wanna bet? I just last night mentioned a case of this happening here, and I wasnt the only one to speak of similar instances...

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

Adam,

Getting poked by a tooth and causing an actual puncture wound while eating a prekilled rat is indeed very, very unlikely. This can still happen with live food as well if it is really a concern of yours.

The fact is a live rat can and will attempt to actively bite a snake that is attacking it unless the snake is skilled enough to grab it perfectly on the first attempt. By making points that other things are astronomically possible doesn't make this possibility more unlikely. It does occasionally happen.

You have a great track record. For many years you have never had a rat bite a snake. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I know people who cross the road without looking and they have done it for years and are still very much alive.. but people die every year from getting hit by cars.. sometimes even when they did use caution. They however can not control the unpredictable driver of the car, who is drinking coffee and talking on the phone while driving.

A rat is an animal, a snake is an animal.. fact is that animals are unpredictable. There is no way for you to prove one way or the other.. It is indeed all opinion.

My opinion is that live is fine, frozen thawed is fine and fresh killed is fine.

Feeding live has a slight possibility of the snake getting bit, it does happen.

Feeding frozen thawed as the risk of feeding rodents that are not fully thawed

Feeding fresh killed has the risk of parasite, which is the same case as live.

As long as someone knows the risk, they can take the responsibility for their own choice. To say live does not hold any risk at all is, in my opinion, moderately irresponsible unless you state the exact sizes and circumstance that make this completely safe from nip damage. If you state that feeding live rodents that have not yet developed teeth capable of puncturing a snakes hide, then I will agree with you 100% whole-heartedly.

Either way, these are still merely our opinions.

This is a discussion.. not a personal attack.

Rick

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:rockon:

Slurp.....People "CAN" be complete idiots too, its all relative ;)

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

This is a discussion.. not a personal attack.

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Great way to end the paragraph...

Anyways, this topic is about someones snake that did get bit. I apologize for taking part in this thread going slightly off topic. There are already enough "live vs dead" discussions.

I sincerely wish you luck. As long as you watch for infection and treat accordingly, the snake should be fine. At worst it will have a couple small scars. It's when the nips go unnoticed/untreated that things seem to 'all of a sudden' go bad.

Keep us informed..

Rick

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Originally Posted by SiscoReptiles

To say live does not hold any risk at all is, in my opinion, moderately irresponsible

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Well good thing nobody said anything like that! Discuss away! :D :carrot:

-adam

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

How many of your live rats after being succesfully constricted caused an abcesses in you snakes while or after being swallowed?

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Just finished treating an mouth abcess from a rat tooth last month ... I was feeding off some extra F/T before it went bad ... imagine that. :carrot: :rolleye2:


-adam