Too small prey item?

I had been feeding both my 850g snakes small rats without a problem through the summer. Come the shorter days and now they're both fasting. My question is were small rats too big for them and now they're playing catch up? I also noticed that the small rats I ordered from rodent were sometimes too large so I decided to try out feeding them weaned rats. There a little smaller than the girth of my snakes, but I would rather have them eat all year round. Does this sound alright to you guys?

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

I had been feeding both my 850g snakes small rats without a problem through the summer. Come the shorter days and now they're both fasting. My question is were small rats too big for them and now they're playing catch up? I also noticed that the small rats I ordered from rodent were sometimes too large so I decided to try out feeding them weaned rats. There a little smaller than the girth of my snakes, but I would rather have them eat all year round. Does this sound alright to you guys?

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welcome to winter

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Originally Posted by tmlowe5704

welcome to winter

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There are too many people with snakes that eat through winter for me to just accept that as the answer. I still feel like I'm doing something wrong that they're not eating the full year round.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

There are too many people with snakes that eat through winter for me to just accept that as the answer. I still feel like I'm doing something wrong that they're not eating the full year round.

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There are also just as many people who have snakes that go off feed during winter. These snakes can go a long time without food, don't worry too much yet. They probably sense some change in the daylight times and temperatures and were going into breeding mode. How are you regulating temps?

Helix DBS-1000, temps and humidty are perfect. My hatchling is eating like a beast. I'm watching the other two and their weights closely. My female fasted last winter a bit and I was hoping to maybe better that situation this winter. But regardless of the fasting does anyone have anything to say about a 850g snake feeding on weanling sized rats?

When the boys get the girls on the brain or the girls get the boys on the brain they might slow down eating but as the wise man of the mountian said to me when mine went off feed. "A Bll should not go off feed if the setup is right" -Adam. Or they might just not be hungry. Give it a week and try again. double check your temps and all also.

Hope this helps -- Ed

BUMP...Anybody care to share whether or not they think a weanling rat (rodent pro) would be to small for this snake

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...o/100_1244.jpg

Rich, I know that Adam feeds his adults small/small rats (between 40-50 grams each) and his snakes eat year round (over 200 snakes).


I feed 2 mice a week, but once my rats get to producing enough to sustain my collection - I'll be small/small rats each week for the adults and rat fuzzies and pups for the rest.

I also experience no fasts in the winter with all 15 of mine.

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Originally Posted by tmlowe5704

There are also just as many people who have snakes that go off feed during winter.

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I am convinced from my own experiences and conversations I've had with Adam about my observations that 90% of the winter fasts are husbandry related:

Enclosure too large
Temps not stable, even a degree or two drop at night combined with shorter days can throw them off feed
Overfeeding
Overhandling
Hides too large

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Rich, I know that Adam feeds his adults small/small rats (between 40-50 grams each) and his snakes eat year round (over 200 snakes).


I feed 2 mice a week, but once my rats get to producing enough to sustain my collection - I'll be small/small rats each week for the adults and rat fuzzies and pups for the rest.

I also experience no fasts in the winter with all 15 of mine.

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What classifies an adult? I never really paid any thought to it. 2+ years or sexual maturity? I have a feeling they've been overfed a bit. Sometimes the small rats I had were in the 90g range, pretty sure I ended throwing out most of those though. Well see what happens tonight I guess. Gonna offer the whole gang some rat pups see if it sparks anything up.

Thanks Robin

Edit: Adam's one liners about trouble feeders is what made me go crazy trying to get all my husbandry on point. It makes sense that they should feed year round unless you induce them into breed mode.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I am convinced from my own experiences and conversations I've had with Adam about my observations that 90% of the winter fasts are husbandry related:

Enclosure too large
Temps not stable, even a degree or two drop at night combined with shorter days can throw them off feed
Overfeeding
Overhandling
Hides too large

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If that is the case as in
enclosure to large
hides to large
Then why only off feed in the winter ?
I have a bp that is wc or cb and he goes off feed every winter. Temps stay steady year round and same cage he has been in since he was about 1 yr old
Not over fed or over handled, same hides.
He eats like a champ until the days really shorten up and this year I have even put a light on a timer to counter act that and he just went off fed.
Just like clockwork.
I don't agree that husbandry always is the reason if it is wc or cb.

a small rat is def not too small IMO..

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Originally Posted by jotay

I don't agree that husbandry always is the reason if it is wc or cb.

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I didn't say always, I said approximately 90%. If it's the "rule" rather than the exception that most ball pythons go off feed in the winter and it's NOT husbandry related, then have I just been extremely lucky with my 15? :confuzd:

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

What classifies an adult? I never really paid any thought to it. 2+ years or sexual maturity?

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I'm sure I'm pretty liberal with my descriptions, but I call mine that are over 1200 grams adults, or at least adult sized. I know they still have a LOT more growth to go, but at 1200 grams, they should be fine with one small/small rat a week.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I'm sure I'm pretty liberal with my descriptions, but I call mine that are over 1200 grams adults, or at least adult sized. I know they still have a LOT more growth to go, but at 1200 grams, they should be fine with one small/small rat a week.

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Ok thanks for clearing that up for me. I was thinking something along the same lines. With all the hatchling, yearling, sub-adult, adult classifications going around I didn't even bother sorting through that mess. Well I guess I'm going to try out the weaners for a while and see how it goes.

i have 7 bp's ranging from under 80 grams up to over 3000 grams and all are still eating on a regular basis . even my biggest females who were cooled for breeding continued to eat on their regular schedule . though there are some exceptions i believe that with proper care and maintenence , adams thoughts on the subject are pretty accurite . there are some snakes that will prove this wrong , but i dont have any in my collection thank god .

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I didn't say always, I said approximately 90%. If it's the "rule" rather than the exception that most ball pythons go off feed in the winter and it's NOT husbandry related, then have I just been extremely lucky with my 15? :confuzd:

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And of your 15 how many are wc or cb? which is what I was saying.
I don't believe that the case in cbb going off feed, I would agree w/ you on them and it being a husbandry issue

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Originally Posted by jotay

And of your 15 how many are wc or cb? which is what I was saying.

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Eleven are captive hatched, only four are captive bred. So the majority are farmed from Africa.

And, for what it's worth, Kashmire was the only faster I had. He fasted for six months last year, when I had him set up in a 20 gallon long. I thought my temps were remaining constant, but when I checked high/low, his temps were dropping a degree or two each night.

Now he's in a tub set-up, and he hasn't missed a meal since being moved into that set-up, which is a smaller enclosure and keeps the temps consistent, 24 hours a day. No signs of a winter fast this year - another reason I have the beliefs that I do.

I do recognize there are always exceptions, my point is simply that I believe "most" (not all) winter fasts are husbandry related.

It is highly unlikely that you can say, with absolute certainty, that the temperatures or daylight hours don't change during the winter. Unless you read on your thermostat that the min/max temps are identical and you have no windows in the room.

My snakes a year old and up have been fasting since September, with a couple random feeds in that period. I'm ok with that, if they're hungry they'll eat. My 06 girl hasn't missed one, she's over 300g now.

I feed larger prey items as well so they have fat to burn if they choose.

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Originally Posted by Sadie

It is highly unlikely that you can say, with absolute certainty, that the temperatures or daylight hours don't change during the winter. Unless you read on your thermostat that the min/max temps are identical and you have no windows in the room.

My snakes a year old and up have been fasting since September, with a couple random feeds in that period. I'm ok with that, if they're hungry they'll eat. My 06 girl hasn't missed one, she's over 300g now.

I feed larger prey items as well so they have fat to burn if they choose.

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Lights are easy, run a light cycle of 14 hours light, 10 hours dark. My thermometer records the history of highs and lows.

For me, smaller meals, warm snakes, smaller enclosures = consistent feeders.

Our w/c adult (or ltc adult, whichever term you prefer) is currently fasting. She fasted last winter too. Nothing we did last winter worked (temp adjustments, lighting adjustments, no handling, different sized prey, dancing around the full moon chanting and making offerings...nada). She only lost 100 grams over a whole winter though. Saoirse is our only snake though that grew up wild and came into the pet trade as an adult so we consider her the "oddball" of the collection.

As far as feeding weanling rats to an 850 gram snake I do it all the time. We have a few females in that range (600 to 900 grams) and most of them eat newly weaned rats. One of our females (Rionnach....900 grams) will likely eat wean rats a long time as she's extremely, extremely picky about prey size and will refuse to eat anything bigger than a chubby wean rat. You can always feed two if you think you need to at some point as the snake grows and then eventually move up to a small.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Our w/c adult (or ltc adult, whichever term you prefer) is currently fasting. She fasted last winter too. Nothing we did last winter worked (temp adjustments, lighting adjustments, no handling, different sized prey, dancing around the full moon chanting and making offerings...nada). She only lost 100 grams over a whole winter though. Saoirse is our only snake though that grew up wild and came into the pet trade as an adult so we consider her the "oddball" of the collection.

As far as feeding weanling rats to an 850 gram snake I do it all the time. We have a few females in that range (600 to 900 grams) and most of them eat newly weaned rats. One of our females (Rionnach....900 grams) will likely eat wean rats a long time as she's extremely, extremely picky about prey size and will refuse to eat anything bigger than a chubby wean rat. You can always feed two if you think you need to at some point as the snake grows and then eventually move up to a small.

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Thanks for the info Jo,

Currently Autumn's been off feed for about 6 weeks and has lost about 30g and Anubus has been off for about 4 weeks and has lost about 20g. Lustro has been eating rat pups like they're going out of style, I guess I'll take 1 of 3 as opposed to none of 3.

Thanks for all the replies everyone

Try offering the fasting ones a nice juicy, wiggling fuzzy. For some reason we've found that those are pretty hard to resist for a snake and can pop one out of a fast. You can leave a fuzzie in there overnight and see how it goes. If the snake doesn't eat it, it normally will be fine in the morning and you can just pop it back in with it's mother.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Try offering the fasting ones a nice juicy, wiggling fuzzy. For some reason we've found that those are pretty hard to resist for a snake and can pop one out of a fast. You can leave a fuzzie in there overnight and see how it goes. If the snake doesn't eat it, it normally will be fine in the morning and you can just pop it back in with it's mother.

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If only I raised my own feed :(

Its hard to find live rat pups in my area but I'll give it a search

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

If only I raised my own feed :(

Its hard to find live rat pups in my area but I'll give it a search

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Oh yep darn sorry forgot you don't have a rat colony handy. Try calling around to your local decent pet stores, some do breed in the back room. Also see if you have any herp clubs around. Some of their members may have an active breeder/feeder rat colony. I sell my spares to another BPNet member when I have them...handy for me, handy for him. :)

If all else fails...well just pack up and move to Toledo, OH. I have 5 big litters of various aged nursing baby rats right now and two more due soon (that reminds me...I need more maternity setups real soon!).

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Oh yep darn sorry forgot you don't have a rat colony handy. Try calling around to your local decent pet stores, some do breed in the back room. Also see if you have any herp clubs around. Some of their members may have an active breeder/feeder rat colony. I sell my spares to another BPNet member when I have them...handy for me, handy for him. :)

If all else fails...well just pack up and move to Toledo, OH. I have 5 big litters of various aged nursing baby rats right now and two more due soon (that reminds me...I need more maternity setups real soon!).

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Thanks Jo,

I'll keep that in mind if I ever decide to pack up my bags and hit the road. I'm going to try looking around this weekend. I'm sure Lustro will gobble up anything the other two won't eat. Little pig he is.