Husbandry issue?

[B][B]Hello Everyone,

I am the owner of two ball pythons, One of them i have had for 1 1/2 years and the other for about 4 months. Origionally I kept the little guy in a seperate 20 gallon tank, but my husband decided it would be a good idea to put him in with the big snake. I know it is winter and the bigger snake (Niko) did not want to eat before we put the little one in, we tried to get him to eat a baby rat 3x's but he didnt budge. So we have left them both alone for the last week and a half. It seems now Niko is about to shed and hasnt eaten in 3 1/2 weeks, the little one ate last week (still eats baby mice)
I got the second snake from a girl that at first thought was a boa and completely negleted it, and kept a red heat lamp directly above it 24-7. I know it isnt the best idea to keep two snakes together, expecially since there is a difference in size. As far as fighting over the space, it seems that even though i have two caves for them they still sleep with eachother, Niko doesnt try crushing the little one or taking up the entire heat pad, under the tank, he lets the little one pretty much take up all the space in the cave. Everytime the little on comes out to climb, the big one is right their and they are always slithering all over eachother and seem to be fine. Niko had a buddy a long time ago when we first got him, we bought another ball. But the other one escaped and, I later found him in the closet dead. Yes, i have taken big measures to assure that does not happen again. We currently have them both living in a 170 gallon tank, and I love that they have a huge space to slither around to there hearts content, and i do not belive in keeping a reptile in a plastic container with no vines, vegitation or anything at all, is cruel and they should live in there cage the way they would in grasslands, with alot of space and freedom. Do you all think that Niko is stressed out because of the little one? I have taken Niko to the vet, he was checked out and everyhting seems just fine, The fact is he always even in the winter time had a great appetite. The little one has had an issue fully shedding, but theres just a little bit of unshed skin near his head. Nothing really huge and they seem to deficate just fine also. I give them warm baths at least once a week, I make sure there is humididty. I might just be freaking out, because this is the first time he hasnt eatin in this amount of time. Since he got igger we cut down his feeding to once every two weeks.If anyone has any suggestions, I would liike to hear from you.
Thanks

Snakes are NOT social creatures. They will never be "buddies". Please separate them since by keeping them together is only stressing them out. They may not show it, but believe me they would rather by alone.


Also keeping them in plastic tubs is not "cruel". Plastic tubs keep the heat and humidity perfect very very very easy. Also BP's aren't climbers, so they don't need branches, etc. A roomy tub is fine for them.

Alright...where to start.

Don't house two snakes together. Ball pythons are solitary creatures and the problems you are having with either of them are most likely directly related to the stress that they are experiencing by having to share a space with another snake.

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We currently have them both living in a 170 gallon tank, and I love that they have a huge space to slither around to there hearts content, and i do not belive in keeping a reptile in a plastic container with no vines, vegitation or anything at all, is cruel and they should live in there cage the way they would in grasslands, with alot of space and freedom.

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Although this may sound "good" to you and that you are doing them a favor, your underlying assumption that captivity should mimic the wild is completely false.

Ball pythons in captivity thrive under different conditions than wild ball pythons would thrive in. Captive ball pythons actually benefit from the enclosed, simplistic caging that you deem as "cruel," when if fact it does better to meet their needs than an enclosure that attempts to mimic the environment they would have in the wild. Your 170 gallon tank does not even come close to simulating their wild environment, and the issues you are asking about (non-eating, bad shedding) are major indicators of this.

Keep an open mind. A lot of new keepers like to personify their snakes, thinking they like big spaces or the company of other snakes. This is just simply not the case.

Can someone please tell me why this is such an issue as far as keeping them together? Ive seen people keeping 15 snakes in one enclosure at one time, i'm sure that is a pretty stressful situation but I have a huge tank, and separate sleeping quarters for them. Where can I actually find the concrete proof of this, and how it affects the snake... sugestions?....Books? sites?

u should not house them together..im sure that is the cause of his stress..get another tank, and seperate them asap..aslo 170 gl tank is way too big for a ball..they like to feel secure..u would need hides all over..a 40 gl is enough space for him..how big is the other one?...

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

Can someone please tell me why this is such an issue as far as keeping them together? Ive seen people keeping 15 snakes in one enclosure at one time, i'm sure that is a pretty stressful situation but I have a huge tank, and separate sleeping quarters for them. Where can I actually find the concrete proof of this, and how it affects the snake... sugestions?....Books? sites?

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snakes are not social...therfore do not do well together unless they are breeding..they dont live in groups in the wild.

and tubs are not cruel, as it been said it keeps humidity very well...

I don't feel I am just "mimicking" their natural enviroment, why is it wrong to keep them in a place where they have many natural things surrounding them? why is it wrong to have them live semi what it would be like in had wild versus nothing at all? Also the bigger one (Niko) was not eating before we put the little one in there.

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

Can someone please tell me why this is such an issue as far as keeping them together? Ive seen people keeping 15 snakes in one enclosure at one time, i'm sure that is a pretty stressful situation but I have a huge tank, and separate sleeping quarters for them. Where can I actually find the concrete proof of this, and how it affects the snake... sugestions?....Books? sites?

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Anyone have that link that showed the ball pythons were housed together and the cannibalism and subsequent death of both of them?

Housing ball pythons together in a confined space (yes, your 170 gallon tank may be big, but not compared to the tens of thousands of acres that ball pythons in the wild have to roam) will cause stress that builds over time. You may notice small problems now, which will only get worse over time. Stress in captivity as a result of poor husbandry is a silent killer in captive reptiles, often leaving the keeper with their arms in the air not knowing what happened.

They are your snakes, and you can do what you want with them...just don't argue with the advice given to you. If you want concrete proof, go out and research for yourself....

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

I don't feel I am just "mimicking" their natural enviroment, why is it wrong to keep them in a place where they have many natural things surrounding them? why is it wrong to have them live semi what it would be like in had wild versus nothing at all? Also the bigger one (Niko) was not eating before we put the little one in there.

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Your missing the whole idea here. If you can't mimic nature 100%, you should not attempt to do it at all.

Thus, providing them with a captive environment that has been proven successful over and over is the only option if you want a healthy animal.

If you want a more naturalistic setup (which can be done), go with a smaller tank (20-40 gallons) for each snake individually. There's a write-up in the husbandry section about doing this with a glass tank.

just read any caresheet and all u're ques will be answered..

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

[B][B]Hello Everyone,

I am the owner of two ball pythons, One of them i have had for 1 1/2 years and the other for about 4 months. Origionally I kept the little guy in a seperate 20 gallon tank, but my husband decided it would be a good idea to put him in with the big snake. I know it is winter and the bigger snake (Niko) did not want to eat before we put the little one in, we tried to get him to eat a baby rat 3x's but he didnt budge. So we have left them both alone for the last week and a half. It seems now Niko is about to shed and hasnt eaten in 3 1/2 weeks, the little one ate last week (still eats baby mice)
I got the second snake from a girl that at first thought was a boa and completely negleted it, and kept a red heat lamp directly above it 24-7. I know it isnt the best idea to keep two snakes together, expecially since there is a difference in size. As far as fighting over the space, it seems that even though i have two caves for them they still sleep with eachother, Niko doesnt try crushing the little one or taking up the entire heat pad, under the tank, he lets the little one pretty much take up all the space in the cave. Everytime the little on comes out to climb, the big one is right their and they are always slithering all over eachother and seem to be fine. Niko had a buddy a long time ago when we first got him, we bought another ball. But the other one escaped and, I later found him in the closet dead. Yes, i have taken big measures to assure that does not happen again. We currently have them both living in a 170 gallon tank, and I love that they have a huge space to slither around to there hearts content, and i do not belive in keeping a reptile in a plastic container with no vines, vegitation or anything at all, is cruel and they should live in there cage the way they would in grasslands, with alot of space and freedom. Do you all think that Niko is stressed out because of the little one? I have taken Niko to the vet, he was checked out and everyhting seems just fine, The fact is he always even in the winter time had a great appetite. The little one has had an issue fully shedding, but theres just a little bit of unshed skin near his head. Nothing really huge and they seem to deficate just fine also. I give them warm baths at least once a week, I make sure there is humididty. I might just be freaking out, because this is the first time he hasnt eatin in this amount of time. Since he got igger we cut down his feeding to once every two weeks.If anyone has any suggestions, I would liike to hear from you.
Thanks

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Wow! First, welcome to the forum! Now onto your post! :)

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but my husband decided it would be a good idea to put him in with the big snake.

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What made your husband decide this?

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I know it is winter and the bigger snake (Niko) did not want to eat before we put the little one in, we tried to get him to eat a baby rat 3x's but he didnt budge

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Winter really isn't the problem - I have 15 ball pythons, none of them are fasting this winter. Most fasting problems are a result and one of or a combination of:

1) Stress - caused by housing together
2) Incorrect temps (92-94 on the warm side, 82-84 on the cool side - measured by a digital thermometer)
3) Enclosures too large (ball pythons like small, cramped quarters - they seek out tight burrows in the wild, and don't spend a lot of time in open areas - that would leave them open to predation.
4) Overhandling
5) Overfeeding

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I know it isnt the best idea to keep two snakes together, expecially since there is a difference in size. As far as fighting over the space, it seems that even though i have two caves for them they still sleep with eachother, Niko doesnt try crushing the little one or taking up the entire heat pad, under the tank, he lets the little one pretty much take up all the space in the cave. Everytime the little on comes out to climb, the big one is right their and they are always slithering all over eachother and seem to be fine.

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You are correct, it is NOT the best idea. What you are describing is a classic case of domination. Niko is trying to dominate the little one. Wherever the little one goes, Niko is following in order to make sure the little one isn't getting the "best of" whatever it is that little one likes. And the little one is trying without success to leave Niko, but cannot, because he's being forced to share the same enclosure with Niko. It has nothing to do with affection or caring for each other. They are not fine.

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We currently have them both living in a 170 gallon tank, and I love that they have a huge space to slither around to there hearts content, and i do not belive in keeping a reptile in a plastic container with no vines, vegitation or anything at all, is cruel and they should live in there cage the way they would in grasslands, with alot of space and freedom.

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170 gallons is entirely too large. A large number of the members here (myself included) keep our collection in tub set-ups. It is not cruel by any stretch of the imagination. As I said before - all fifteen of mine, housed separately and in tubs are eating each and every week with no refusals. That's a pretty clear indication that they are happy and healthy.

The vines, and vegetation stuff is for the keeper's pleasure, not the snakes. They could care less. Ball pythons may live in the grasslands, but they spend most of their time in termite mounds and burrows, and ambush hunt from the entrances of those burrows. They really only leave them in order to find a new burrow.

If you want to more closely mimic their home environment, the tubs provide more of a burrowing effect that they prefer.

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Do you all think that Niko is stressed out because of the little one? I have taken Niko to the vet, he was checked out and everyhting seems just fine, The fact is he always even in the winter time had a great appetite.

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Bingo!

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If anyone has any suggestions, I would liike to hear from you.

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My suggestions - separate them immediately, get them smaller enclosures, MUCH smaller enclosures, and stick to routines (feeding on the same day each week, smaller meals each week).

Having kept ball pythons in both tanks and in tubs, from my own PERSONAL experiences, I've had more success with tubs than I ever did with glass vivs. I have better feeding responses and better growth, better sheds. I don't see any downside to keeping in tubs.

I do have many hiding spots all over the cage, and they climb all over the place, I have a vine that hangs in the middle and they climb from one side to the other. They do this all night long. If my snake was so stressed This fact alone, of being in a tank this large by himself for the past year...wouldnt he have started haveing symptoms erlier on? Since hes been in this cage, he has never experienced any problems.

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

Also the bigger one (Niko) was not eating before we put the little one in there.

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From what I've read elsewhere on the site, Niko eating now that another ball is in his territory is his way of competing for resources. Niko crawling all over the smaller ball when he's out and about is another show of competition and dominence. Sleeping in the same hide with the other ball is a sign of competition and dominence.

Competition for hides, food and other things = stress for the snakes. Which is why keeping them together isn't good. From what I've read it can cause health problems in the long run.

I'm not claiming to be an expert, I don't even own a BP yet. But I've done a lot of reading...and this is my interpretation of what I've read.

--Kim

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

Can someone please tell me why this is such an issue as far as keeping them together? Ive seen people keeping 15 snakes in one enclosure at one time, i'm sure that is a pretty stressful situation but I have a huge tank, and separate sleeping quarters for them. Where can I actually find the concrete proof of this, and how it affects the snake... sugestions?....Books? sites?

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This site right here is good concrete proof. Here's a thread you should probably read.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=23890

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

I do have many hiding spots all over the cage, and they climb all over the place, I have a vine that hangs in the middle and they climb from one side to the other. They do this all night long. If my snake was so stressed This fact alone, of being in a tank this large by himself for the past year...wouldnt he have started haveing symptoms erlier on? Since hes been in this cage, he has never experienced any problems.

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pacing all back and forth all nite IS a sigh of stress

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

I do have many hiding spots all over the cage, and they climb all over the place, I have a vine that hangs in the middle and they climb from one side to the other. They do this all night long. If my snake was so stressed This fact alone, of being in a tank this large by himself for the past year...wouldnt he have started haveing symptoms erlier on? Since hes been in this cage, he has never experienced any problems.

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The advice has been given to you....take it or leave it.

What are thay supposed to do if they dont climb and pace around, how will they get any exercise? Are they better off just laying in one spot all the time?

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Anyone have that link that showed the ball pythons were housed together and the cannibalism and subsequent death of both of them?

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Here are links to my photobucket where I have them saved:

http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...hon%20Example/

they dont climd in the wild..hes climbing prolly b/c there in the way...BPs thrive in small secure enclosures w/ good humidity and a place to hide

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

What are thay supposed to do if they dont climb and pace around, how will they get any exercise? Are they better off just laying in one spot all the time?

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That's their natural behavior. They are not arboreal, so they don't need to climb. If they are pacing, they are stressed.

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Originally Posted by cris78

pacing all back and forth all nite IS a sigh of stress

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I agree. I would be surprised if one or both doesn't start a sore on his or her nose from rubbing it along the glass or vine in pacing. Ball pythons are called ball pythons because they like to be secure and in little balls. If yours seem to be training for the snake Olympics then it is probably because they are stressed out.

I know that you have good intentions, and I am sorry that what you feel will help the snake is actually hurting it. The concrete proof is in the results. Your snakes are experiencing huge problems due to their housing. People who keep their snakes in tubs and smaller tanks (mine is in a 30gallon with a few hides, no plants, and a Dora the explorer towel covering part of the screen top and my snake had a great first shed this morning) have healthy, eating snakes. I don't think you've received the positive feedback you wanted. Like someone said earlier. They're your snakes and you can care or neglect them as you wish, but don't be argumentative with advice you're given when you ask.

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Ball pythons are called ball pythons because they like to be secure and in little balls. If yours seem to be training for the snake Olympics then it is probably because they are stressed out.

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Quote worthy!!! :D

I have to agree with what everyone has been saying. Its just not good for the snake. Its hard to hear a bunch of people tell you what you've been doing is wrong and the true test is whether you will take the advice or continue doing what you've been doing. The shame is that there is little concrete proof out there, these snakes are not the subjects of studies often and therefore have little publicized information. Take it from the collective years of experience of the great people on this site to be all the proof you need. We all care very much for these slithery creatures and would not give you harmful advice. In the end its your choice but you'd be wise to follow the advice given.

Good luck and welcome to our forum.

I know you haven't been recieving the replies you thought, but you came asking for opinions.

Though it's not the best thing to do, even if you split your tank in half with a peice of plexi glass, and keep a ball on either side (making sure both half of the tanks have the proper heat gradiant), and put in a lot of hides for them to choose from (of simular size or the same, so they don't choose their favorite). Balls don't need a lot of room to move about, they are not active snakes. In fact the best indicator that something may be off is if they are pacing in their tank (Pip did this on a few occasions after a power outage and the temps and humidiy in his tank stressed him out). Just simply separating them and adding in more hides, you'll notice a great difference in them. They'll be happier, more content. Balls are meant to spend their time inside their hides or well hidden (in the middle of my Pips tank, there are some rocks and big things of leaves, which he likes to hide himself in, in essence it's a another hide). He's calm and docile, eats great, and loves to be handled.

Well i have to say i agree with everyone but you ball pythons love tight spaces and dark they actually do not go far from there hides because of the security they need not eating bad sheds yeah i listened to theses guys and gals on here when i got my first ball and guess what a week later he was eating so why would you ask for advice and then not take it and try to bad mouth it your snakes are not happy together if you want to keep them both in the big tank fine but your going to have to do major work to it first seperate the cage into 2 differnt ones second add more hides maybe cover the sides of the tank and make sure you keep the temp and humidity good people on this site are more than willing to help you just dont and try them there wrong some of these people been housing snakes the majority of there lives guys and gurls add to it :rockon:
(should of read his first ^ )

there's a vid of africans finding snakes in the wild & pulling 4 out of one burrow

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Originally Posted by ReptiNut

there's a vid of africans finding snakes in the wild & pulling 4 out of one burrow

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Not sure what your point is? I believe it was one female and several males who were competing for the female during breeding season, if it's the same video I'm thinking of. Also, remember that each of those snakes have the ability to leave when the "deed" is done or they are stressed, but they wouldn't, if forced to live together in captivity.

let them swim around in a warm bath (not together) or let them slither around on the bed or sofa once in a while (again one at a time). that will give them a little exercize. even dogs will compete for dominance and the best of every thing. if you have a dog and you get a cat or a dog that dog will fell it has to compete. there's no way you can house two solitaire animals and not expect them not to compete. take the advice of every one in here or leave it, but please do some thing before one or both wind up hurt or worse.

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Originally Posted by m2sexi97

What are thay supposed to do if they dont climb and pace around, how will they get any exercise? Are they better off just laying in one spot all the time?

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Hey, not trying to beat a dead horse, but in changing my snakes cage tonight I thought of this thread. I got her out this evening and we socialized, talked of our days, etc. I cleaned the old newspaper from her tank and had been holding her 15-20 minutes. While I was putting down new newspaper, I set my snake on my bed, which is full of fun stuff that bad snakes love to get into, like comforter folds, sheets, etc. Well, also on my bed was her screen top, on top of which were her hides. Rather than going and checking out the bed or slithering off as I expected her to do, she went straight for her hide and sort of poked her head out watching me. I take this as a good sign. She feels comfortable in her hide, even if its on her screen top on my bed. While I agree that it is counter-intuitive to believe that roaming = unhappy and curled up and hidden = happy, I gotta believe that it is right. Anyway, this is just anecdotal evidence, but I still was sort of amused that it happened and wanted to share.