live feeding

Before I say any thing I want every one to know that I don't want this thead to get ugly (as they some times do) I just have a question for people a little more experinced than me. I feed one live mouse a week to my female bp, and I keep a close eye on her until she is done eating. This week when I dropped the mouse in it grabbed her on the back right away I put my tongs between its mouth and her back. Then she grabbed the mouse's head (as she usualy does) and constricted. Then she let go before the mouse was dead and tryed to eat it, and it bit her again on the face. She made the mouse let go right away. It wasn't a "bad" bite (no blood or pulled back scales). She was on live when I got her as a baby and has never had a proublem till now. This is her first bite and I want it to be her last, but I don't want to switch her to f/t (I think it might be a bit stressful for her and I've had problems in the past with f/t). My question is; are there any "tricks" to poblem free live feeds? I know Adam you said you feed all of yours live without a bite or scratch, how do you do it? I think I reacted quickly and appropitly. I just don't want my baby geting hurt again. Ayn suggestions would be greatly appreacited!

Kat, all I can say is to make sure the live prey is of an appropriate size for that particular snake (not overly large), that the snake is awake, aware and ready to strike, that you introduce the live prey across the tub from your snake so the snake has a chance to set itself for it's strike, that hides are left in the enclosure as many snakes hunt from their hide or use it as "cover", make sure the rodent itself is well fed and well hydrated prior to introduction and that as keepers we monitor but not hover over the snake as our larger heat signature and shadow may confuse or startle the snake and cause it to not be as quick and efficient in it's strike. Other than those thoughts, I'd just add that we only give our snakes about 10 to 15 minutes tops to strike, if they don't we remove the live prey as we've found over time that if the snake doesn't hit by then, it's really just not all that interested that week.

I'm not sure what your feeding routine is but these are just a few things we do with our snakes that all are live feeders to help ensure it all goes well.

i feed live also, one thing that i think really helps is. pre-scenting the room with the rodents for about 15-20 min.

this should kick you snake into "feed mode". your snake should be waiting for the rodent.

consistent temps and husbandry also play an important part in consistent feeding.


vaughn

I also tend to let the scent linger before I place the rat in, by sitting the box on top of the screen for a few minutes. Before I get near the cage with the rat, however, I go in and remove the water dish, the hide Osiris is not using, the 1/2 log, and the acurite. I've had too many feeds where the rat decides to make himself at home in the other hide or behind the water bowl, leaving Osiris to look at me like "Well, fine, but I'm charging him rent."

Removing the extra pieces may disturb Osiris for a minute, but leaving him the hide he's currently in also gives him a chance to wake up and pop his head out on his own. When he looks interested, I drop the rat on the other side of the cage, giving him plenty of readying distance/time.

More likely than not, Osiris strikes before the rat gets a real sense of his surroundings. Once Osiris has swallowed and starts moving towards his hide, I replace the water dish and the other hide. Later, once he's settled back down I'll slip the wood piece and thermometer back in.

I've seen him strike 'wrong' before, but by leaving him alone for a few seconds, I saw he quickly doubled his constricting efforts, completely cutting off the airflow of the rat so he didn't have the energy to fight back. If I'd interrupted, it would have taken Osiris that much longer to get back with the program. (Please note, of course, I would interfere if I saw the rat was actually getting a tooth in, but the little struggling scratches and attempts to bite are usually quickly handled by Osiris' strength.)

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Originally Posted by kavmon

i feed live also, one thing that i think really helps is. pre-scenting the room with the rodents for about 15-20 min.

this should kick you snake into "feed mode". your snake should be waiting for the rodent.

consistent temps and husbandry also play an important part in consistent feeding.


vaughn

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Vaughn :clap: ! Forgot that bit in my post. Pre-scenting really keys ours up, especially the ones that are a bit slower to strike. That time with the live rat scurrying around in it's own well ventilated container kicks them up that notch into "gimme gimme gimme" mode. :)

I am not experienced at all...but what about putting the mouse in a pillowcase first and swinging it around. I have heard of some people doing that. Then, the mouse/rat is off balance, uncoordinated, and the snake can grab it. The rodent would just be like "what the?"

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Originally Posted by Wolfsnaps

I am not experienced at all...but what about putting the mouse in a pillowcase first and swinging it around. I have heard of some people doing that. Then, the mouse/rat is off balance, uncoordinated, and the snake can grab it. The rodent would just be like "what the?"

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I don't think that's a good idea. Setting aside the "mean factor"....there's no way of knowing how fast the rodent would recover from the "spin," and at that point, it would be a seriously freaked out rodent on the immediate defensive.

It's far better, for both the rodent and the snake, to keep the rodent as calm and unstressed as reasonably possible. If the other steps already mentioned have been taken, the snake should be ready to eat and will usually pounce on the rodent before its even aware there is a snake in the vicinity.

I'd much rather have the rodent "thinking".... Ohhhh....this is a new place...lemme check it out. Rather than, What the...??? Danger danger danger!!

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Originally Posted by Wolfsnaps

I am not experienced at all...but what about putting the mouse in a pillowcase first and swinging it around. I have heard of some people doing that. Then, the mouse/rat is off balance, uncoordinated, and the snake can grab it. The rodent would just be like "what the?"

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Not humane for the rodent, that would be first. Secondly, for me anyways, if my snakes can't handle a live rodent without me somehow disabling it for them....they wouldn't get offered live.

I agree with most everyone else here. I feed predominantly live and hundreds of rodents a month pass through here. I have had two biting incidents that still didn't make any difference to the girls involved and healed quite nicely.

If there was no blood or even any pulled back scales I would not even consider that a bite. If it does not break skin it is not really a bit IMO.

if my snakes are in their hide, i dangle the mouse right outside, they "wake up" and start wandering, and then i drop the mouse farthest away from the snake.

but accidents still do happen, one of my females, i didnt see the mouse, even though i monitor them, bite her, but a few days later i was handling her, and i noticed a little cut and immediately put neosporin on it

I agree w/ everyone on the fact of pre-scenting.
Rather then remove the hides I just place a pc of cardboard in front on the one Ozzy is not in. Then I will open his cage door and set the rodent box in there for a min. or two and if Ozzy is ready to eat he will stick his head out of the hide and be in the strike position, at which time I will let the rat loose on the far end of the cage and by the time the rat scampers over his way he strikes and coils so fast the rat doesn't know what hit him let alone get the chance to bite. I know that the pre-scent is what gets Ozzy so hyped up and ready to go.
It works!

I didn't realize so many people fed there snakes live.

I always thought F/T was safer for the snake?

Any reason behind feeding live snakes vs. F/T?

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Originally Posted by kplunk

I didn't realize so many people fed there snakes live.

I always thought F/T was safer for the snake?

Any reason behind feeding live snakes vs. F/T?

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I personally don't feed live but its a decision as a snake owner they can make. Live is more dangerous but if done responsibly, it is ALMOST as safe as f/t. There is always the risk the mouse or rat will bite back in the split second it takes to react.
Also, some balls are just too picky and refuse to eat dead prey. For some its just easier to feed 1000+ mice a week VS. thawing them out then feeding.
Lets not let this get out of hand, keep it civilized:carrot:

Completely civily speaking ...

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Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

Live is more dangerous

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How so? Do you have first hand experience feeding large numbers of snakes live prey and stating fact based on first hand knowledge? Or are you merely expressing an opinion based on what you believe to be true?

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Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

There is always the risk the mouse or rat will bite back in the split second it takes to react.

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I literally feed out tens of thousands of live rodents a year and carefully study the behavior of the rodents and the animals ... I've been doing so for a long time ... When feeding live is done correctly, there is no "split second" in which a mouse or rat can bite back and do any type of damage. I feel confident stating that as fact based on my first hand experience.

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Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

For some its just easier to feed 1000+ mice a week VS. thawing them out then feeding.

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For me, it has nothing to do with what is "easy" ... I have an extremely expensive collection of high end animals and I would never take a "risk" in order to make things easier ... I do what is best for my animals ... I feed live because I know that it can be done just as safely as any other method of feeding. ;)

Thank you for letting me share the large amounts of experience I have with this subject ... hopefully it helps someone.

:D

-adam

I feed most of my snakes live but what i do to insure their safety is feed them rat pups and rat weanlings. They are much larger and more nutritious than mice and are not able to do harm to my snakes. Some of my snakes will eat perkilled most of the time but most of them prefer live and like any parent I like to give my babies what they want. For instance last night I fed some of my larger snakes 2 and 3 rat pups. I breed my own rats, which are much easier to breed than mice(mice need specific temps to breed) and even the pinkies are perfect for baby BP's. I had a guy call me last night asking about a pastel I'm selling and he told me a rat chewed his pastel's face anf killed him!!!!!! Go for the rat pups :rockon:

there really isn't any proof that rats are more nutritious then mice. :)

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Completely civily speaking ...



How so? Do you have first hand experience feeding large numbers of snakes live prey and stating fact based on first hand knowledge? Or are you merely expressing an opinion based on what you believe to be true?

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I was saying that live is more dangerous vs. a dead rat in general. No matter how the snake hits the rat there is still a SMALL Posibility something could happen. Am I saying its likely? NO. Am I saying it will happen? NO. Am I saying its possible, Yes.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I literally feed out tens of thousands of live rodents a year and carefully study the behavior of the rodents and the animals ... I've been doing so for a long time ... When feeding live is done correctly, there is no "split second" in which a mouse or rat can bite back and do any type of damage. I feel confident stating that as fact based on my first hand experience.

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There is always a chance a rodent can fight back. the chances of it when fed live responsibly, like I said above. Possible but not likely.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

For me, it has nothing to do with what is "easy" ... I have an extremely expensive collection of high end animals and I would never take a "risk" in order to make things easier ... I do what is best for my animals ... I feed live because I know that it can be done just as safely as any other method of feeding. ;)

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I didn't mean to make it sound like you take the easy way out. I did say that some animals just won't take dead therefore implying that live may be needed. Although if done correctally it is relatively safe, there still is a slightly higher risk a live rodent would cause damage vs. a DEAD rodent. What damage can a f/t rodent do to your snake?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Thank you for letting me share the large amounts of experience I have with this subject ... hopefully it helps someone.

:D

-adam

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I wasn't trying to flame or anything, I was just saying my oppinion and what I see as facts and possibilities

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Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

I was saying that live is more dangerous vs. a dead rat in general. No matter how the snake hits the rat there is still a SMALL Posibility something could happen. Am I saying its likely? NO. Am I saying it will happen? NO. Am I saying its possible, Yes.

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And there's always a chance that a rodent won't be thawed out correctly, and could still by icy in the middle...or partially cooked...or rotten....any of which could cause serious complications for your snake. Is it likely? No, not if thawing is done responsibly...but it IS possible. ;)

I certainly don't disagree with feeding f/t.....but I did want to point out that both methods have their slight risks, as do all things in life worth doing. I think they balance each other out and one is not better or worse or safer or more dangerous than the other if the snake keeper is doing their job right.

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Originally Posted by JLC

And there's always a chance that a rodent won't be thawed out correctly, and could still by icy in the middle...or partially cooked...or rotten....any of which could cause serious complications for your snake. Is it likely? No, not if thawing is done responsibly...but it IS possible. ;)

I certainly don't disagree with feeding f/t.....but I did want to point out that both methods have their slight risks, as do all things in life worth doing. I think they balance each other out and one is not better or worse or safer or more dangerous than the other if the snake keeper is doing their job right.

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Of course each have their pros and cons. I mean what ever works for you, Go for it. Its easier for me as well as most boa keepers feed f/t. Its just easier becuase most boas will readily accept f/t vs the many picky balls that won't touch it.

I feed live to all of my snakes, with the exceptions being the cornsnakes. I just don't have live fuzzies every week(even though the mouse colony is going full tilt). So I save back 1-2 litters of 10-20 babies at a time, euthanize them properly and freeze them. Lasts quite awhile for 3 small Corns.

The boa gets live rabbits, and she does wonderfully with them. They barely get to sit there 5 seconds to even think "Oh, this is a nice place *sniff sniff*" WHAM! And that's all she wrote. I scent the room by putting the rabbit in a carrier and placing it on top of Sonja's tub. This gets her in feeding mode so she knows what is coming. When a snake isn't prepared to accept food, that is when you end up with refusals and the snake shying away from the prey item.

All of the Balls get large adult mice, grown by myself. From the 250-450g 2006 babies all the way up to the 1500-1700g females. If you think a 450g 2006 female Ball isn't good growth on one large mouse per week, I don't know what is. They all get fed once per week unless "I" decide to skip a week or vary the amount of mice they get(say they usually get 3-4, I may give only 1 or 2 so they are very ready for the next week). I rarely have refusals, and if I do, it's because one of the shy babies is in shed and would rather not be bothered. Although I do have a few very aggressive babies who could care less what was happening(IE: the sky could be falling and a volcano erupting), they wanted that dang mouse.

I just prefer to feed live because it keeps my snakes active, their minds stimulated, and they do wonderfully with it. If they didn't, I wouldn't feed that way. They also feed very consistently, even the adult females haven't shown signs of wanting to fast.

Oh I know you're not arguing against the practice of feeding live. And if I sounded offended at anything you said, I wasn't. I was just refuting this particular statement you made. (emphasis mine)

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Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

I was saying that live is more dangerous vs. a dead rat in general.

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All I'M saying is...if both methods are done correctly, neither is more dangerous nor safer than the other.

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Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

There is always a chance a rodent can fight back.

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If you really believe that, it's clear (to me at least) that you don't have a whole ton of experience observing the preadtor/prey relationship between ball pythons and live rodents. It just doesn't work like that.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Entropy

there really isn't any proof that rats are more nutritious then mice. :)

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Ok see I read or heard that rats were more nutritious. Nothing to go on just regurgitating what I heard. With no reason behind it.

So what is the case then? are rats more nutritious then mice? is there proof saying that rats are more nutritious? or is there proof saying that they are equal? or is there proof saying mice or more nutritious? or is there no study in the matter and its just peoples opinions?

When everyone is saying they feed there snakes live are you refering to mice or rats?

are live feeders more nutritious than F/T?

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Originally Posted by kplunk

Ok see I read or heard that rats were more nutritious. Nothing to go on just regurgitating what I heard. With no reason behind it.

So what is the case then? are rats more nutritious then mice? is there proof saying that rats are more nutritious? or is there proof saying that they are equal? or is there proof saying mice or more nutritious? or is there no study in the matter and its just peoples opinions?

When everyone is saying they feed there snakes live are you refering to mice or rats?

are live feeders more nutritious than F/T?

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The main issue with all these questions is that no one knows what the exact nutritional requirements for ball pythons are....so how can you say any one thing is better than another?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If you really believe that, it's clear (to me at least) that you don't have a whole ton of experience observing the preadtor/prey relationship between ball pythons and live rodents. It just doesn't work like that.

-adam

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There is always a chance no matter what. A live animal can bite. If the rodents head is close to the snakes body, it would possibly bite.

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Originally Posted by JLC

The main issue with all these questions is that no one knows what the exact nutritional requirements for ball pythons are....so how can you say any one thing is better than another?

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Theres a nutrients breakdown somewhere on the rodent pro articles section

It's a moot point since we don't know the nutritional requirements of Ball Pythons. :)

It's really about the weight of what you feed. Say you feed 2 adult mice that weigh 20-25g apiece and your friend feeds 1 small/small rat that weighs 40g. Both snakes get the same amount of food regardless of what you're feeding, be it mice, rats, gerbils, hamsters, chinchillas or ostrich(ok that was a stretch). You will get similar growth out of two snakes fed different types of prey if the prey items weigh the same(if they're siblings, the growth rate should be more similar than if the snakes weren't related, since size is also genetically predisposed).

When I said more nutritious what I should really have said is their is just more meat on the rats therefore more nutrition.

And if you are feeding rat pups that are larger than mice your getting more food with no danger. It helps alot with picky eaters (scardy cats) that won't eat untill they are undistubed and feel secure.

But still, since we don't know what Ball Pythons actually require nutrition-wise, what does it matter if a rat is bigger than a mouse, has more meat, has 15g of protein versus 12g, etc... If a Ball Python only requires 2-3g protein every week to maintain its energy requirements.

Like I said in a previous post, it's the weight of the prey item that should mainly matter, not the species. 2- 25g mice are the same as one 45-50g rat. Balls don't need a 400g rat every week to maintain, and would more than likely look at it and be scared, or they would eat it and fast for the next month.

400 g rat that would be huge. I just fed my 2 balls med size rats maybe about 100g is that too much?

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

But still, since we don't know what Ball Pythons actually require nutrition-wise, what does it matter if a rat is bigger than a mouse, has more meat, has 15g of protein versus 12g, etc... If a Ball Python only requires 2-3g protein every week to maintain its energy requirements.

Like I said in a previous post, it's the weight of the prey item that should mainly matter, not the species. 2- 25g mice are the same as one 45-50g rat. Balls don't need a 400g rat every week to maintain, and would more than likely look at it and be scared, or they would eat it and fast for the next month.

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Becky, you ROCK!

Pay attention kiddies, Becky has it going on!!!! :love:

-adam

Kplunk, they will eventually tell you it is too much by refusing to eat. If you "must" feed a larger rat that weighs around 100g, I would do that every 2 weeks. They just don't require that much food and will tell you that soon enough. Ball Pythons are a test of patience(raising, breeding, laying, pipping, eating, etc etc).

I would bump them down to a smallish small rat(40-50g) every week. They should eat more consistently and be more aggressive at feeding time. Not to mention, small rats usually haven't "been around the block" like larger rats have(such as being offered to a snake sometime in their life, not getting eaten, and then brought back to the store).

Think about it this way: I've adopted largish rats from pet stores and as rescues. It takes them much longer to calm down and accept things. They are usually very fidgety and are always on the go. However, most babies I've adopted have been skitty for a week, maybe, and then they settle in and are "ho hum" about everything from then on(with the exception of wrestling with you and sleeping in your shirt).

If you get a large rat from a pet store that is set in its ways, it's going to be more nervous, scared, and may be harder to take down(for a Ball, maybe not for a large boa), making the snake not want to eat(maybe, as I've never fed live large rats to my Ball Pythons..Just speculation). Whereas, if you get a young, small rat that is still all happy-go-lucky and could care less where it is. It will just check out the new environment it's just been placed in and explore, rather than cower in the corner.

The only thing I'll add having experienced live and f/t feeding in our smaller collection is that in the end as a keeper you have to make informed, knowledgeable choices for your snakes. They deserve that from us when we choose to keep them in a captive environment. That means lots of research and learning skills appropriate to our feeding choices so that whatever the method is we do it correctly for the safety of the snake and the humane treatment of it's prey item.

No matter what choice we make though we always have to be prepared for what the snake will accept. You can decide on f/t, but if your snake will only take live in the end, you'll be feeding live so it's best to always be prepared to deal with what comes along. Some snakes will switch feeding styles, some will not. Snakes don't adjust to us, we adjust to them or at least that's been my limited experience.

The goal, whatever you choose, is to have a well fed snake with a great and consistent feeding response. You do that, you've done it right. :)

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Originally Posted by westcoastjungle

And if you are feeding rat pups that are larger than mice your getting more food with no danger. It helps alot with picky eaters (scardy cats) that won't eat untill they are undistubed and feel secure.

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I agree. An adult mouse is going to be more cautious than a rat of the same size.

Thanks aalot guys for all of the advice and not yelling at me (I was already freaked out enough this being my first bite). I guess there a first time for every thing with these guys. Feeding day's tomarrow and I'm thinking about going with the rat pup. There were a few things I forgot to metion in my prev post like I always pesent the tank and I feed her in an empty tank. Anyways thanks again. :D And wish me luck

I just got done feeding I went with a rat pup. It was the same size as the mice I feed her. As soon as I got home she came out of her hide after prescenting I dropped the pup in and that was all she wrote. Thanks again guys!!!!

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Originally Posted by Thunder Kat

I just got done feeding I went with a rat pup. It was the same size as the mice I feed her. As soon as I got home she came out of her hide after prescenting I dropped the pup in and that was all she wrote. Thanks again guys!!!!

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Glad it went well!!!:rockon: