» Site Navigation
1 members and 633 guests
Most users ever online was 47,180, 07-16-2025 at 05:30 PM.
» Today's Birthdays
» Stats
Members: 75,905
Threads: 249,106
Posts: 2,572,115
Top Poster: JLC (31,651)
|
-
Feeding live?
I've had my BP "Pontius" since february 06', at that time he was a little baby. For about the first month I attempted to feed him f/t or pre-killed mice but to no avail would he take a frozen or pre-killed mouse so I made the decision to feed live. Previously I had a full grown red tail boa that when I recieved him the previous owner said that he fed him live because he wouldn't take anything else. To make a long story short the red tail had multiple scars from live prey. I didn't want this to happen to my new BP but he needed to eat, so I went ahead and fed him live. It's been 10 months now and I'm continuing to feed live with no problems but he's growing and I'm feeding larger and there's now a higher potential of a rat that's going to wound the snake. For instance last week when I fed him, Pontius was being fussy. So I placed the rat closer to Pontius and he struck but missed. After 15 min. or so, he finally got the rat and the rat began to kick. This hasn't been a problem in the past because he usually gets the rat in a position to where the rat can't possibly wound him but in this case the rat was scraping his neck and I knew it would only get worse. At this point I reached in there and grabbed the rats hind legs with my tongs holding them out of reach of Pontius' body. Everything ended up being fine but it most likely was a horrific experience for my snake and I would prefer it to not happen again. The question is: How do I switch my snake from live to pre-killed? What are some methods other's use? Can someone help me with this process?
-
Re: Feeding live?
I personally have never fed live as I am in UK & its illegal.
I hope someone answers you question soon..there are very knowledable people here that will be happy to help.
:)
-
Re: Feeding live?
Snakes' skin is pretty tough, actually - I have never experienced injuries on any of mine from a rat or mouse kicking at them.
I feed all of mine live mice or small/small rats (which is the largest they will ever need) each week. There's not a scar or scratch on any of mine. I also do not ever interfere with the kill.
Quote:
but it most likely was a horrific experience for my snake
I doubt it - the "horrific" part for the snake might have been the other predator (you) interfering in his kill to take it from him (in his mind). But I seriously doubt he was horrified that the rat was kicking at him.
You'll find here at BP.net - we each keepers choice to feed whatever works best for them. For me, it's feeding live, for others, it's feeding f/t or pre-killed.
Since I've never fed f/t - I'll leave your question on how to convert to others more experienced in doing so.
-
Re: Feeding live?
"It's been 10 months now and I'm continuing to feed live with no problems but he's growing and I'm feeding larger and there's now a higher potential of a rat that's going to wound the snake. For instance last week when I fed him, Pontius was being fussy. So I placed the rat closer to Pontius and he struck but missed"
Couple of concerns here. What size are you feeding when you say "larger". Even our mature female BP's are never offered anything bigger than a live small rat. They might well take two of them but they are never allowed to be in an enclosed space with any live rat over a small size. This helps cut down risks to the snake and allows our snakes to self-regulate (if they aren't particularily hungry they only take the one and refuse the second that week). Even our smaller BP's are fed live rats that never leave a visible lump in their bodies (again they may take a second pup or weanling if they want it that week).
I don't understand the "placed the rat closer". When you live feed you should be placing the rat as far away from your snake as possible, not putting it closer. This allows the prey to move naturally around the enclosure and for your snake to position itself to strike cleanly when it's instincts tell it the time is right. Never force live prey and a snake into very close quarters. It may take time for the strike to occur but that's as it should be.
If you wish to move the snake over to f/t, try pre-killed first. Make sure the prey is offered immediately so it is still blood warm. You may have to use hemostats to move the rodent in a way that simulates live movement (don't dangle it by the tail...rats can't fly sort of thing LOL). Some snakes will go from live to p/k or f/t, some will not.
The best thing as far as I'm concerned is to feed what your snake will eat, in the way it will eat it. Learn as much as you can about that feeding method for your benefit, the benefit of the snake and the prey item as well (in the case of live rats/mice). :)
-
Re: Feeding live?
i would try fresh killed if he is so used to live, basicly whack the rats head, and offer to the snake, it will still be wiggly and warm. should not have any issues with him taking it, after a few meals then try a f/t and see what happens. but me personally i prefer the fresh killed, no rat supply taking room in the freezer, and no afternoons wasted thawing out rats.
-
Re: Feeding live?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcaustralia
i would try fresh killed if he is so used to live, basicly whack the rats head, and offer to the snake, it will still be wiggly and warm.
If it's still wiggly, it's still alive - and can come out of that stupor in a defensive manner and be even more dangerous than an un-stunned live prey item. Stunning prey is un-necessary. Either feed live, or feed pre-killed (killed in a CO2 chamber preferably) or f/t. Feeding stunned is a bad idea all around.
-
Re: Feeding live?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabernet
If it's still wiggly, it's still alive - and can come out of that stupor in a defensive manner and be even more dangerous than an un-stunned live prey item. Stunning prey is un-necessary. Either feed live, or feed pre-killed (killed in a CO2 chamber preferably) or f/t. Feeding stunned is a bad idea all around.
I have to say I completely agree with Robin here. Stunning prey should not be necessary for two reasons. One is the one Robin stated and I would add that if your snake is unable to handle live prey safely and efficiently, it certainly should not be offered prey that is in any way still living and should be offered only p/k or f/t prey. Also I would add that stunning a living prey item is for me inhumane to that prey item and causes it needless and unnecessary suffering.
-
Re: Feeding live?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabernet
If it's still wiggly, it's still alive - and can come out of that stupor in a defensive manner and be even more dangerous than an un-stunned live prey item. Stunning prey is un-necessary. Either feed live, or feed pre-killed (killed in a CO2 chamber preferably) or f/t. Feeding stunned is a bad idea all around.
if not done proper you are correct, none of mine come back, they wiggle momentaraly and are dead. i make shure of that.;)
-
Re: Feeding live?
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankykeno
I have to say I completely agree with Robin here. Stunning prey should not be necessary for two reasons. One is the one Robin stated and I would add that if your snake is unable to handle live prey safely and efficiently, it certainly should not be offered prey that is in any way still living and should be offered only p/k or f/t prey. Also I would add that stunning a living prey item is for me inhumane to that prey item and causes it needless and unnecessary suffering.
i did not say stun, if implied i am sorry, let me be a little more grafic about it, (not trying to be rude or cold), blunt force truama to the skull region, animal is dead, but the nervs still twitch for a moment longer, thus the wiggly. animal feels no pain. and there is no coming "out" of it. if snake refuses then it is frozen for a leter meal. i am sorry if this is against anyone opinion. you do it your way i do it mine. i personally do not like to see a animal of any kind suffer, gasping for air, or fighting for its life.
as far as not being able to take live prey safly, things happen, mother nature is a freak and it unpredictible at times. i have lost a snake that only took live, and was very good at it. it was a good take covering the face, rats face in snakes mouth, but the rat bit inside of the mouth, casued an abcess and died while being treated.
-
Re: Feeding live?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcaustralia
casued an abcess and died while being treated.
And in the past I've had abcesses on the inside of snakes mouths from the claws and teeth of pre-killed and frozen thawed ... I have yet to see any greater risk with first hand experience feeding a very large collection live rodents than I did when I used to feed F/T.
-adam
-
Re: Feeding live?
i was not saying there was a problem feeding live, i just wanted to explain why i choose the way i do it. this happened to my male water python 1 month before breeding season.
-
Re: Feeding live?
There's a lot to be said for proper conditioning of ball pythons and feeding live, f/t, or p/k. Whether you have one snake or a more sizeable collection, getting into a routine really serves ball pythons well as they begin to know what to expect during live feedings. I think a lot of new keepers are always switching things up (trying live then f/t then p/k and back again), interfering with the rat and snake during feeding time, etc, and it really throws the snake off.
I feed 11 ball pythons live prey each week at the same time. I start by leaving the rats in containers in the room with the snakes for about 30 minutes. I've noticed that most of them "wake up" and start roaming their cage or sit in wait at the front of their tubs. I drop a rat in each tub, more often than not the rat barely hits the ground before the snake grabs them. No waving or wiggling the rat or any other coercion to get the snakes to eat.
The whole point of this is that proper conditioning of ball pythons and consistency in your habits goes a long way to keeping them successfully. Whether you feed live inside a cage, a seperate box, f/t, p/k, whatever, you have to find a routine that works and stick to it exactly. With that and a little patience, you and your snake will be much better for it.
-
Re: Feeding live?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisa77
I personally have never fed live as I am in UK & its illegal.
Are you sure about that? Isn't it an urban legend.
I'm f/t all the way anyway.
-
Re: Feeding live?
I put my girls in a seperate feeding tub, or the "Rodent House of Death", as my kids call it (I got into the habit when I first started on the advice of the local herp shop). Inside that I have a small cardboard box that I place the "snake food" in. The rodent typically settles down in the box and is, in effect, "hunted". I listen for the strike and then remove the lid to make sure everything goes as planned. This way the snake isn't exposed to the rat until she is ready. I also tend to wait for "hungry" behavior, since I tried the weekly thing and ended up with a lot of wasted rodents. I wasn't a big deal when I still had their mom, who would eat anything that didn't try to eat her first. I had very good luck this summer with pre-killed. THey have consistantly, since their second winter, refused to eat from October to March. They drink all the time, but have accepted maybe three winter meals in as many years. At four they are around 1800 grams and have never had any health problems, so I figure they know what they need.
-
Re: Feeding live?
Excellent post Brad! Really good solid common sense advice there. Whatever you feed, as a responsible keeper you need to know the pro's and con's of a feeding method as well as the proper procedures and also how a particular snake will react to that method. We feed live much as Brad does and it's pretty standard around here to place the live rat in a tub and immediately hear the "thump, whap" of the snake hitting it instantly.
-
Re: Feeding live?
I appreciate the replies everyone. I have never approached feeding my snake by first scenting the room with the prey before I drop it into his cage, I will try this. My main concerns were him getting wounds from a small small rat's claws as I have had these problems with a red tail I had previously. When I spoke to the couple I get my feeders from the guy told me that there was no need to scent his surroundings before I feed and I took his advice considering he has over a thousand snakes, but I will try this method and see what the results are.
I really can't thank all of you enough for the reassurance that feeding live is not a bad thing and I will try some of your suggestions.
-
Re: Feeding live?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurgan
Are you sure about that? Isn't it an urban legend.
I'm f/t all the way anyway.
From everything I've heard from herpers in the UK, live feeding is illegal.
-
Re: Feeding live?
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeofowl
I appreciate the replies everyone. I have never approached feeding my snake by first scenting the room with the prey before I drop it into his cage, I will try this. My main concerns were him getting wounds from a small small rat's claws as I have had these problems with a red tail I had previously. When I spoke to the couple I get my feeders from the guy told me that there was no need to scent his surroundings before I feed and I took his advice considering he has over a thousand snakes, but I will try this method and see what the results are.
One thing I've learned is that everybody does things differently. The people you've spoken to may have found "their way" which does not include scenting the room, but in no way does that mean you absolutely don't have to.
I've just found that doing that tends to decrease the amount of time that the rat is moving around in the tub before the snake hits it. Often times, I've got about 3 seconds to get the tub open, drop the rat in, and close the tub, before the snake nails it, or else the snake is coming out!
As opposed to before what I didn't scent the room, the first indication the snakes had that it was "feeding time" was when a curious rat came right up to their nose and suprised them...and for some of my shy feeders at the time...would be enough to turn off their feeding response.
What you should do is keep doing what you are doing, gathering information and taking advice from others, and develop your own unique routine that draws on that advice and works for you. If you end up with happy, healthy snakes, your way is the right way for you.
-
Re: Feeding live?
It seems that it is legal with certain restrictions (last resort, humane conditions and treatment of feeder animal - both of which seem perfectly reasonable to me):
see:
http://www.publications.parliament.u...52/4090727.htm
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/pets/herp-faq/part3/
-
Re: Feeding live?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurgan
Hi,
Kurgan is 100% correct. In the petshop I used to work in we were used to train the rspca inspectors about reptiles for a couple of years and that was always one of the questions they asked. Ironically we had a harder time explaining to one of them why a lizard that lived in the sahara didn't need a water bowl "large enough for him to swim in". A lot of it comes down to the personal feeling of the inspector as far as the heat of the argument but as long as a good reason for it can be provided ( like starving to death) you will certainly not be prosecuted.
But as stated in his links if you are feeding live just because " you think it's cool" or keeping the food in bad conditions they are within their rights to arrange for the courts to take your animals away and ban you from keeping anything for 5 years or more.You should have seen some of the poor animals they handed in to us over the years - breaks your heart somedays.
It usually comes down to proving you are knowledgeable and responsible with the lives in your charge.It's easy to lose your temper when an inspector is called to your house incorrectly (happened to a zoo-keeper friend of mine once - he was not a happy bunny) but they are generally reasonable human beings and are obliged to investigate any complaint.They also tend not to know a lot about reptiles - so teach one at every opportunity :)
dr del
|