putting mice to sleep

My new ball is used to taking live mice from the previous owner. I would like to switch to killed prey but I don't want to feed it frozen/thawed mice. Is there a humane way of putting mice to sleep? Thanks.

you can use CO2 or you can whack em against a wall.

whats wrong with F/T? it gets rid of all the parasites. do you raise your own mice?

good luck.

Check out the this thread http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=33850
It's a sticky in the feeders forum.

A CO2 canister (filled) w/a short hose and on/off valve cost me $46 and I've done five litters of rat pups with it, and just now need to get it refilled.


CO2 is MUCH more humane than whacking them against a wall! If I couldn't come up with any other way, I'd be sure to break their necks before I'd thump them against a wall. CO2 is much, much simpler and cleaner!

Thanks to all that replied.

Slithers, nothing wrong with frozen/thawed. Its just my personal preference to feed freshly killed mice. Thanks.

RockSolid, thanks for the link.

sweety314, guess I'll just have to find myself an air tight container. Thanks.

I just used the freezer bags. :) Put the babies is, squeezed (most of) the air out, puffed up the freezer bag with the CO2, closed off the bag until they quit moving, waited about 2-3 min. Popped 'em into the freezer after pushing the CO2 out. All done.

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Originally Posted by sweety314

A CO2 canister (filled) w/a short hose and on/off valve cost me $46 and I've done five litters of rat pups with it, and just now need to get it refilled.


CO2 is MUCH more humane than whacking them against a wall! If I couldn't come up with any other way, I'd be sure to break their necks before I'd thump them against a wall. CO2 is much, much simpler and cleaner!

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Not to start a debate but how is wacking them against the wall be less humane that CO2? When they're slammed against a wall, table etc. its instant death, unless you give a little girly swing (no offense). They're dead before they knew what hit them and it is much faster! CO2 on the other hand is something that doesn't kill them right away. It's "painless", but it does take some time! Ever have your breath cutoff by being choked out or the likes? I have when we were doing combatives in the army during training and it doesn't feel much good at all. I'd imagine this is what it feels like to be put down by CO2. You really do freak out alot, and then you start to "lose it" towards what you think, and your awareness. I do believe "wacking" the prey Item against a wall or something of the likes is as humane if not more so than CO2. Myself, I'd much rather go down instantly and pain free, than suffocating no matter how quick it is.

I agree with you Andrew!

CO2 narcosis is generally considered to be one of the best ways to go for people - you start to feel a little light headed, then sleepy then no more.

OOOOOOodles and oodles of arguements about this. Many, many threads about this same thing. Also the live vs. PK/FT debate will rage on and on, and on, and on, ad nauseum as long as ppl keep herps in captivity.

You wanna do a mouse by whacking it, go right ahead. I'm not going to stand looking over your shoulder. For me as an observer, it's easy to see someone missing, or putting the brains all over the sock, back, pillowcase or (fill in the blank). I use CO2 so they get sleepy and then nothing.

He had asked for suggestions on putting mice to sleep, and I gave him the information for a smaller, (cheap) way to put together a CO2 system. The guys here who are doing rodents to sell, all use dry ice in a CO2 chamber. They're not whacking hundreds of mice.

Each needs to make his/her own decision on how to do it.

Do whatever you want. I'm not the euthenasia police.

The search feature is your best friend.....

we have lots of threads on this very thing in the appropriate forum, including stickies for your convienence....the feeders forum...


I MOVED THIS THREAD TO THE RIGHT FORUM.

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Originally Posted by AndrewH

CO2 on the other hand is something that doesn't kill them right away. It's "painless", but it does take some time! Ever have your breath cutoff by being choked out or the likes?

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The physiological reaction to these two things are so different from each other, I honestly do not see how you can make that comparison with a straight face! lol
:rolleye2:

I just put em in a container and into the freezer they go...........Go ahead slam me for my cruel way........but it works........and lets be real here......they are food! These are not pets, these are food. If I was to put them in live with the snake they would die a far worse death. I see this discussion all the time.....kinda makes me laugh....

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Originally Posted by Slithers

you can use CO2 or you can whack em against a wall.

whats wrong with F/T? it gets rid of all the parasites. do you raise your own mice?

good luck.

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He said humane. Whacking against a wall isn't.

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Originally Posted by Nightmare Creatures

I just put em in a container and into the freezer they go...........Go ahead slam me for my cruel way........but it works........and lets be real here......they are food! These are not pets, these are food. If I was to put them in live with the snake they would die a far worse death. I see this discussion all the time.....kinda makes me laugh....

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Disgusting..Freezing is a far worse death than being constricted by a snake. Have a little respect for the animals that keep your snakes healthy, growing and breeding for you. You deserve to be slammed..And then maybe frozen?

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Originally Posted by AndrewH

Not to start a debate but how is wacking them against the wall be less humane that CO2? When they're slammed against a wall, table etc. its instant death, unless you give a little girly swing (no offense). They're dead before they knew what hit them and it is much faster! CO2 on the other hand is something that doesn't kill them right away. It's "painless", but it does take some time! Ever have your breath cutoff by being choked out or the likes? I have when we were doing combatives in the army during training and it doesn't feel much good at all. I'd imagine this is what it feels like to be put down by CO2. You really do freak out alot, and then you start to "lose it" towards what you think, and your awareness. I do believe "wacking" the prey Item against a wall or something of the likes is as humane if not more so than CO2. Myself, I'd much rather go down instantly and pain free, than suffocating no matter how quick it is.

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I don't mean to be harsh or mean, but you have no clue what you are talking about.

Studies have been done by actual scientists and the AVMA has certified CO2 euthanization as one of the most humane methods of euthanization, much moreso than blunt trauma. Blunt trauma is NOT humane by any stretch of the imagination, and the "time" element in which you are basing your arguement upon is irrelevent in determining what is and isn't humane. Sure, if you threw the rodent off the top floor of a high rise, death might be instant, but that doesn't make it humane.


Before you reply, take some time to read this and think your position over.

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_we...euthanasia.pdf

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I don't mean to be harsh or mean, but you have no clue what you are talking about.

Studies have been done by actual scientists and the AVMA has certified CO2 euthanization as one of the most humane methods of euthanization, much moreso than blunt trauma. Blunt trauma is NOT humane by any stretch of the imagination, and the "time" element in which you are basing your arguement upon is irrelevent in determining what is and isn't humane. Sure, if you threw the rodent off the top floor of a high rise, death might be instant, but that doesn't make it humane.


Before you reply, take some time to read this and think your position over.

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_we...euthanasia.pdf

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Great post Brad! :rockon:

LOL.............all this over a mouse that is about to become lunch for my snake. Dont get me wrong......I have respect for nature and all animals......however lets have (insert local chicken place here) start buying only CO2'ed chickens and see how long that lasts........LOL Freezing them is just as humane as starving them for air......and that is all CO2 does......dont think for a minute that mouse is in a happy place either way. I have done much looking into CO2 chambers. Just seems a little to much for a mouse bound for the freezer anyway. Using CO2 does not make the mouse any better for the snake, it adds no benefit to the food value. Now if you are breeding large scale, then yes a CO2 is the only way.........course you are killing 200 mice at a time then.........

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Originally Posted by Nightmare Creatures

LOL.............all this over a mouse that is about to become lunch for my snake. Dont get me wrong......I have respect for nature and all animals......however lets have (insert local chicken place here) start buying only CO2'ed chickens and see how long that lasts........LOL Freezing them is just as humane as starving them for air......and that is all CO2 does......dont think for a minute that mouse is in a happy place either way. I have done much looking into CO2 chambers. Just seems a little to much for a mouse bound for the freezer anyway. Using CO2 does not make the mouse any better for the snake, it adds no benefit to the food value. Now if you are breeding large scale, then yes a CO2 is the only way.........course you are killing 200 mice at a time then.........

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You have no clue.

Let me expound on that. Where exactly do you get that freezing is just as humane as CO2? CO2 and Cervical Dislocation are the only 2 humane methods of euthanization that are recognized. Its obvious you couldn't care less about the prey item, so I doubt you'll be convinced by any FACTS.

Nightmare...please read that article. Just by what you just said, it goes to show you have some major misconceptions about the FACTS surrounding this issue.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

You deserve to be slammed..And then maybe frozen?

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I know this is a topic that brings out the worst in us at times(I know I have been there many times). However, lets try and keep ourselves from making comments like this shall we? It sure as hec isn't going to convince the other party that they are in the wrong. If escalation of this type continues, then I'm afraid I'm gonna have to shut this one down. :(

I agree, being choked out is nothing like CO2 narcosis. High CO2/Low oxygen is something im somewhat experienced with because of my freediving training. As CO2 levels get high it is a very peaceful somewhat numbing feeling. I have done breath holds to very near the point of blacking out (bloood oxygen saturation in the low 40% range, i think black out normally happens at around 30ish, normal is 98-100) and the only discomfort was the fact that i wasnt physically breathing. As soon as i exhale the discomfort is gone and all that is left is the very calm relaxed somewhat medicated feeling. The key is not to raise the CO2 levels too quickly. If the levels are raised to quickly then it burns the lungs and does cause some discomfort, that is why it is raised to the levels needed to put them to sleep first, then increased to lethal levels. I have a formula somewhere of what the percentages are for each of those, and what volume of CO2 is formed by a certain mix of baking soda and vinegar. Later on today ill try to find those numbers, and post a picture of my gas chamber. I have tested it on mouse i bought just to make sure it was going to work properly. The mouse was rather active at first in the chamber. Once the gas started in it began to stagger as it was walking, then laid over. A few seconds later I mixed the second batch of gas, and in a min or two it simply quit breathing. It never squealed, or acted uncomfortable. The only thing i noticed was it staggering around. Next time i will put some bedding in the chamber and darken it so that the mouse would be more likely to be bedded down. If wanted i can video it next time i gas a mouse and post a link to photobucket.

Richard, it's obvious you have your own belief system when it comes to the euthanization of prey creatures, however, please allow for other members to offer both their own experience and documented information on what is considered to be proper methods without basically laughing at them. A large part of the function of this forum is sharing information people can depend upon. Should they choose to use or disregard that is their choice of course, as it is yours.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

You have no clue.

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Compared to who? Someone that has a couple of snakes and feeds a whopping 3 or 4 mice a month........LOL There is a way to do what needs to be done.......some do it one way......some do it another.......but in the end the mice die regardless. So really all we are doing is trying to make ourselves feel better about killing a helpless little mouse to feed to our snakes that we keep in containers 1/100th the size of their natural habitat. Out of all the topics herpers talk about, this is by far one of the most debated. This and PK vs. live. The only way this could get any more friendly is if we add politics to the discussion.....:D

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Originally Posted by Nightmare Creatures

Compared to who? Someone that has a couple of snakes and feeds a whopping 3 or 4 mice a month........LOL There is a way to do what needs to be done.......some do it one way......some do it another.......but in the end the mice die regardless. So really all we are doing is trying to make ourselves feel better about killing a helpless little mouse to feed to our snakes that we keep in containers 1/100th the size of their natural habitat. Out of all the topics herpers talk about, this is by far one of the most debated. This and PK vs. live. The only way this could get any more friendly is if we add politics to the discussion.....:D

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This is the farthest thing from PK vs. live.

I just seen the MODs post............I agree......I am done........:)

Piranha, you're right about the effect of CO2 at different concentrations. Page 10 of the article I posted (http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_we...uthanasia.pdf).

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Originally Posted by Nightmare Creatures

I just seen the MODs post............I agree......I am done........:)

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He said nothing about whether or not this should be debated.

Well.......to get back to the real subject here.......CO2......I am not opposed to it at all.....so lets see some of you guys/gals chambers........give everyone here an idea or two on construction and so on. :)

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Originally Posted by jglass38
You have no clue.

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Originally Posted by Nightmare Creatures

Compared to who?

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Compared to board certified veterinarians who have done methodical studies on the matter.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

He said nothing about whether or not this should be debated.

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Exactly Jamie! Feel free to debate it. But you have to agree not to rip off each others arms and beat each other over the heads with it. :P

Im in class right now, but ill post a pic of mine soon as i get out. Give me about 30 mins or so. The only fault i have with it is a need a bigger cup because of the ammount of vinegar needed for the second dose, so i pull the plug on the first cup, after black out the second, once the second drains i pour some more into that cup so it drains into the system.

I wrote up a thread on the use of Dry Ice for CO2 euthanization. It's a lot more cost effective than using gas chambers with CO2 cartridges for one, and Dry Ice subliminated at a reasonalbly slow rate, so you reduce the chance that you increase the concentration of CO2 too quickly. You would need some kind of regulator on a CO2 cartridge to ensure the concentration does not increase too quickly. For a small operation, under 20-30 mice/rats, I think the dry ice method's simplicity is a major advantage.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Compared to board certified veterinarians who have done methodical studies on the matter.

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Who.....in turn.......mostly are not involved in the keeping/breeding of snakes or mice for that matter. They are asked to do a test, they did the test....I dont disagree with them.....My point was simply that in the end the outcome is the same with little difference in the middle. I have said it before I will say it again, CO2 works fine, so does my method.....so does Andrews method. A question was asked, I gave MY answer....now this has gone to us debating it....thats fine. I still think we should have some pics/guides on building a chamber for referrence also.

For CO2 containers i would go with large paintball tank, and the product they call a remote, which is a hose with a valve on it. I dont see a way to use the small 12 gram cartridges properly. If im not mistaken in the sticky topic in this forum about this very topic there are plans for a dry ice chamber, and as i said a few mins ago. My baking soda/vinegar chamber will be posted very soon. If anyone requests i can video the gassing process and post it on photobucket. I dont remember what it cost to make, but im pretty sure it was less that 20 bucks, i think more like 15. Also, not knocking your method, but look into cervical dislocation. Just as quick and doesnt require anything special to do it.

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Originally Posted by Nightmare Creatures

Who.....in turn.......mostly are not involved in the keeping/breeding of snakes or mice for that matter. They are asked to do a test, they did the test....I dont disagree with them.....My point was simply that in the end the outcome is the same with little difference in the middle. I have said it before I will say it again, CO2 works fine, so does my method.....so does Andrews method. A question was asked, I gave MY answer....now this has gone to us debating it....thats fine. I still think we should have some pics/guides on building a chamber for referrence also.

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You gave a response to the question asked that was simply wrong. I corrected you by stating facts and cited my source. Stating facts is not a debate, as you can not debate actual facts.

It only becomes a debate when one side of the issue doesn't want to hear the facts or do any research on their own.

I have seen the medium cartridges like that with a valve at Wal-mart before.....not sure a good way to hook it up and all.........I guess with a small chamber it would be fine?

I read an article about the dry ice method......seems to work fairly well. I dont have a dry ice supplier close to me though.....so CO2 would be the easiest for some one like myself.

I think what you saw at walmart was probably the larger disposable cartridges that are made to use on guns that use the regular tanks and the "valve" with them is just an adapter that screws into the guns threads and punctures the cartridge, but doesnt allow for any flow control I may be wrong though. Were the tanks you saw silver, or black?

I dont recall the color.........seems like they did have a small regulator on them though.

Well I would like to apologize for allowing myself to take the debate highway today..... I am sorry......we have used up a lot of thread space going back and forth over this and I should have kept my comments to myself.

I do want to see some chambers to see if my idea of one is the same as others. I am sorry if I upset anyone with the way I handle my feeders.

Carry on!

Sorry, batteries were dead. Im in another class now. After class ill go get some batteries and take some pics.

Okay, well for CO2 I use to use a setup similar to the one at the bottom of this page:

http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/

It uses vinegar and baking soda so it's very cheap, and you can adjust the size accordingly. Yeast, sugar and water also release CO2 (albeit, at a very minimal rate). There are several other options available online as well.

As for throwing them in the freezer still alive: that qualifies as animal cruelty, which is a misdemeanor in most states, and further more, shows an utter lack of compassion for the animal. Personally, I would not purchase an animal from anyone knowing they chose an illegal and inhumane procedure to kill their prey items.

There is no excuse for using inhumane methods for killing prey items. And using excuses like "Human food is prepared that way" or "Other people do it" is just a silly Red Herring.

To All who continue to post in this thread:


I think it has been said enough that placing a rodent in a freezer to kill before being fed off is not a good way to do it...frankly, I dont see any reason to keep beating a dead horse over it....

Come on folks, Nightmare Creatures is willing to learn to do it another way.... can we not be happy with that accomplishment?

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Okay, well for CO2 I use to use a setup similar to the one at the bottom of this page:

http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/

It uses vinegar and baking soda so it's very cheap, and you can adjust the size accordingly. Yeast, sugar and water also release CO2 (albeit, at a very minimal rate). There are several other options available online as well.

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I too use that site for info on euthanizing...

I made the chamber, and it works great.

My step father was talking to a friend. Apparently her daughter has snakes, and can't get any mice in her area, so she asked her mother to go pick some up, and place the cardboard box they came in, in the freezer overnight, so they would be dead.

The next day she opened the fridge and the mice had chewed a hole in the box, and were eating the frozen buns in the freezer, most were huddled together, and none were dead.

Definitely not the best approach :)

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

Come on folks, Nightmare Creatures is willing to learn to do it another way.... can we not be happy with that accomplishment?

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I wasn't overly concerned with whether or not that particular individual "got it" or not....it was nice he conceded the point I was trying to make, but I was more concerned about someone logging on and looking to learn something, and its important to refute or reiterate certain points to get the message across to those users. I don't feel like anyone here has "beaten a dead horse" at all so far.

Sorry, got the pictures taken, and my lap top was dead. Anyway, finally here's my pics of the chamber.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Okay, well for CO2 I use to use a setup similar to the one at the bottom of this page:

http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/

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Thats the site i got my info from. The main differance is i made it a self contained unit so no hoses stick out anywhere, and i need a larger dose of CO2 than the volume of my actual chamber calls for because of the way i made my reaction chamber.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...8/DSCN1842.JPG
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...8/DSCN1843.JPG
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...8/DSCN1844.JPG

the bottom bowl is where the mice go. The top bowl has a divider in it that doesnt quite go all the way to the top. One side of the container needs to be quite abit bigger than the other. one side has a hose or pipe, whatever is easiest for you to get, sticking up nearly to the top of the bowl. The pipe goes through the bottom, and through the lid of the first bowl. In mine the pipe is glued in with gel superglue, but it may be better to use silicone for all the places that need attached. I didnt because I didnt feel like waiting on it to dry. Next one i make will use silicone. The top bowl can be attached to the lid of the bottom one if desired, but for me the pipe holds it well. Two cups are glued to the top of the lid of the second bowl, one above each side of the reaction chamber. A larger cup is needed above the larger section of the chamber, but again, since this was somewhat of a test run I just used what i had. A hole is drilled through the bottom of the cup and the lid and some type of stopper is put in the hole (i used some disposable pipettes, because thats what i had available at the time). A few small holes are placed in the sides of the bottom bowl near the top. Mice/rats are placed in bottom bowl, and the lid/second bowl is placed on top. baking soda is put into the two sides of the reaction chamber (use info from the link above and the volume of your system to determine how much). The lid is placed on that bowl and vinegar is placed in the cups. The cup with less vinegar is drained, after waiting the appropriate time (see link, i dont remember off the top of my head) the second cup is drained. Several mins later the mice are ready for the freezer or feeding. I kinda simplified the working process, but you can see that from the link to get all the numbers right.