breeding back to back litters

our conversation continued on from this thread: http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...0&page=1&pp=10

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Well to be honest in the wild the adult females aren't confined in a small area with a breeding male either so comparing wild reproduction to captive breeding just doesn't work.

For me leaving an adult male rat in with a female with a litter doesn't work. I don't need or want that kind of rat production going on or want my females breeding back to back or being harrassed to breed while nursing young. I believe it helps my females be healthier if they are bred less often and their offspring to be better nutured by her body both in utero and during nursing. For me, it makes sense that a stronger female rat produces stronger pinks that grow into stronger feeders. It's also part of my philosophy on to not allow breeding if I think it compromises any creatures wellbeing and yes guys, that includes rats. These aren't purely pets to me, they have a job in our home to produce feeders for the snakes but they aren't living in a production environment either. Works for me, doesn't have to work for anybody else.

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Originally Posted by Dougie

Not entirely true. Think about the places that you see rats and mice at in the wild. A lot of times there is a massive infestation (ie. over-run houses), so my guess is that they are almost instantly pregnant again under those circumstances. It would be interesting to see some type of scientific approach to see if life-spans are decreased by this, since right now it is only speculation.

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in the wild rats don't live as long due to predators (and of course exterminators) ...

Again, for me comparing what happens in any given wild/feral population against what you are attempting to do under controlled captive breeding situations just doesn't wash. Your pet cat that is well cared for given the right set of circumstances (well actually the wrong ones) if allowed to overbreed would soon suffer from constant litter production. I believe she would then produce subsequent litters of a lower quality due to her own less than perfect health factored in.

My point is that each of us can and should manage our rat colonies as we prefer for the results we are focusing on and under the conditions we feel most comfortable with. For me and the smaller colony I manage, back to back breeding isn't a method Mike or I use. Good rat production numbers taking into account quality and quantity of feeders produced and over all long term health of the producing female is the balance we strive for.

I agree with Jo, and I'm sure many others can relate. These animals are NOT in the wild so many of the variables of the "wild" are just not in play. Most of us who breed rodents and have been doing so for a long time do not experience these shorter life spans you speak of. Generally many of us who breed also "retire" females from breeding at a point. Even so in my smaller groups there are enough females to a single male that one single female is not going to be giving birth of another litter that quickly after its last they don't get a chance to recuperate.

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Originally Posted by TekWarren

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That said I don't know of anyone off hand that is breeding rodents for reptile food that removes their males after their females start giving birth...I sure as heck don't. I need a constant supply and have never personally seen a decrease in the lifespan of my breeding colonies or in their health. There are plenty of other females in the breeding groups that I would say that this would be a rare issue...at least in my practices.

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i don't think i understand what you are saying... cause your post above this one and the quote... don't seem to be saying the same thing... perhaps i'm misunderstanding?

I may be wrong here Aleesha but I think what Heath means is that there's enough females in with each of his male rats that the male is not right on the female after she gives birth as there's other more accessible females for the male to mate with at any given time. I could be out in left field but that's the meaning I got from his post. I know with mice breeding you must leave the male in as removing and reintroducing him can get him killed off by the females in a stable colony. Actually since male rats are incredibly good parents I can see the concept as long as each male had enough females and there was enough room for the whole group of them. Not something I can manage with my limited room but something to think about if done properly. As long as you get good results with healthy breeders and feeders, you can't argue that. I'm always open to new ways to manage a larger colony as my only experince thus far is with less than 60 rats at any given time.

Jo is dead on. In one statement I am saying that I have not heard of many (any) people who require a steady constant supply of rodents for their reptiles that will remove the males from their rodent colonies. I'll speak for myself only here: I have pretty large tubs for my rodents so there is more room than some people provide in rack systems for rodents. In my mouse tubs I have 1.5, I could easily do more but these females have huge litters so I like for them to have the extra room. It is rare for my females to conceive again directly after having the current litter. The male is busy enough with other females...or with just being a mouse. I've not experienced in my rodents a super um..."aroused" mouse that's sole purpose is to reproduce. They spend time socializing and doing what mice do just as much as the females. The only case I could see your concern coming into play is with a 1.1 pair of rodents and even in cases such as that I have still not seen an instance where the female did not have time to recouperate.

It boils down to management practices, and more importantly health as to how successful breeding colonies are. If my rodents where not successful or lived short lifespans it simply wouldn't be worth it to continue such operations. I have awesome rodents and large healthy litters so I must know at least little bit about what I'm doing. ;)

I never remove males or females from breeding groups. The same as TekWarren I have never had a female have consecutive litters. I keep groups of 1.3 rats and 1.5 mice. I really do believe the males leave the nursing mom's alone and "harass" the ladies with no babies. But those are my personal observations. ;)

and tekwarren... you are talking about mice, not rats.

any pics so we can get a better idea of what you're saying? i'd really appreciate it.

I had and ran my own rattery for pet purposes at one time, had over 100 rats at any given time..mostly youngins ofcourse....

IME, male rats WILL impregnate a female pretty much IMMEDIATELY after giving birth, they go into heat sooner than most realize after giving birth. A males only intent and interest is to procreate if the female is not already pregnant... friendship and what not come after procreation for them. Too many consecutive litters, meaning, the female becomes pregnant while nursing a current litter... will eventually show its wear and tear on thier bodies..... I personally have seen this in others stock, not my own. The wear and tear I am speaking of comes in the form of smaller litters, sickly litters and sickly Momma's b/c thier bodies are in need of a rest..... this also can shorten thier life span. Often, a female will wean her babies too soon b/c she knows she has another litter on the way.... If it is felt neccessary to let a female become pregnant right after delivering a litter, then perhaps some thought about getting more females to meet your snakes feeding needs is a wise idea rather than having to deal with the above issues I mentioned. Just because they can become pregnant soon after delivery, does not mean it is healthy, safe or even fair to the animal... even though they are "just" feeders as some may feel, it is also the responsiblity of the keeper to do whats right by the animals . It is cruel to do anything other than care for it appropriately, even if it is "just a feeder".

Think of it this way: Would you like to stay pregnant constantly?

I guess I can chime in here :)

current setup:

I have 24 breeder racks and I keep ~ 1 male and 6 females in each 3'x2' tub

As soon as I see the females are fat, or if they sneak by and give birth, I pull them out and put them in their own tub to raise their babies.

If the mother gives birth in the breeding tub, about 1 out of 6 times she will get re-pregnant and give birth when the babies are 3 weeks old.

I breed a constant supply of rats, working up to 360 breeding females. When I leave my females w/ babies in with my males, they tend to get trampled/fought over. If I wanted to keep 1 male for every 3 femaels in another tub I am sure it would work. But like most of the breeders I talk to locally, I am switching to a larger setup where I will have 2 males and 20 females (or so) in a larger breeding cage.

So that being said... if I left my females in with my males I would expect 10-20% of my females to "double pop" (as my wife and I call it), but it isn't enough of an issue to really worry about... chances of it happening to two females twice in a row, would be more like 1-4% so not a major worry about stress on the female.

So basically, don't plan it, but I wouldn't make huge efforts to avoid it, as it isn't that common.


PS My numbers are approx... I have about 250+ breeding females

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

and tekwarren... you are talking about mice, not rats.

any pics so we can get a better idea of what you're saying? i'd really appreciate it.

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Actually I'm talking about my rodent observations in general. Mice where an example.

What sort of pic are you asking for...I'm not sure what I'm being unclear about...sorry.

I suppose if I had a rack setup and the space I might do something like snakeysnake suggests. I don't have THAT many rodents and as I said I'm geting large healthy litters. To me "large" means 12-15 per litter just to clarify.

Here's another another thing I have observed you guys can feel free to comment on one way or the other. I find that I have less (maybe none) loss of babies or even visible runts when I have multiple females lactating and caring for mixed litters.

As I said above in *my* experience and with the program I have going and even in the past I've not had issues with life span or health. My rodents thrive, if they didn't I wouldn't be doing this. I want quality food for my snakes and that means putting quality into all my rodents in every aspect of keeping them. I will never say someone else's way is wrong but I will also passionately explain my personal methods that are *working for me*. There could be variables in *my* methods that give me different results. For example I mentioned I provide alot of room for my rodents maybe that prevents some of the issues others are speaking of. Also Jeane says that males have a sole purpose to procreate...yes but still I can say that my males have a purpose in their "community" as well and are not as harsh on the females as maybe some of you have experienced. My tub groups are VERY social with each other and its not all sexually related.

Alot of my current breeders are over a year old and have never been seperated from the males. The are all very healthy and still have larger litters. Like I stated earlier, I have never had females get pregnant and give birth while nursing a previous litter or right after. Who knows, maybe I just have lazy males.

I think we all just have to realize that is more than one way to successfully raise rodents. For what we know about rodents in the wild, none of us really know what really happens in the wild. So we have to raise our rodents and base our decisions on our own observations. We can only give recommendations to people based on our experience. Obviously temps, location, genetic strains, feed, caging, elevation etc will cause a variety of outcomes. So do what works for you. :rockon:

I couldn't agree more Bill, and that's all I wanted to get across :)

I keep my males in with the girls too, and have not noticed any reduction in litter sizes or unhealthy females. I run 1.3 or 1.4 in cement mixing tubs (used to run 1.5, but it gets too crowded if a few females have litters at the same time). After their first litter, the moms don't fight over the babies, and they help each other out a lot. The females will go into heat again within hours of giving birth, but females can delay implantation, and lactaction does delay birth for a few extra days. Both of these measures have evolved so that thier previous litters are big enough to be weaned, and that they have enough energy for thier next litter. I have females that are a year-and-a-half old and still producing good sized litters for me. I feel that given good housing conditions and a good diet, males and females can be housed together constantly without compromising the health of the females.

-Evan

sorry guys... (and yup i mean guys cause you notice so far, only men feel that breeding back to back litters is okay for the female) https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...4/7/pissed.gif but i just don't believe that this is healthy for your females... so, i'm going to step out of this conversation cause i don't think i can be my 'polite' self in this thread. :bolt:

I'm sorry you feel that you can't continue an adult conversation. I also don't like the fact that you point out that all males have posted so far...that has NOTHING to do with all the real world EXPERIENCE that has been shared in this topic. You are entitled to your oppinion sure as are we and we have been giving details and examples of each of our personal experiences...why don't you share yours?

I agree, I really don't see what my sex has to do with it. If I had posted that the other way and stated the same things about females how many people would have jumped down my throat? :colbert:

actually i'm new to breeding ratties. but in all the posts i've read by jo, christie, becky etc they have told me to remove the male and to even give the female her own space to birth rather than leaving her with her female tank-mates. when i bred mice for an owl santuary years ago... i kept females together and just introduced the males for a day... and then removed them again. after the female gave birth and raised her pups... she was given 3-4 weeks minimum before being reintroduced to a male again. at that point i have about 30 tanks with 2-3 females in each one. my male lived alone except when he was 'visiting' the ladies.

but as someone else mentioned... cats having litter after litter isn't good for them either... so why would it be good for ratties? go on any site that cares about rats and you'll see them all say "do not let the rats breed right away after giving birth as it isn't good for them healthwise"

so... instead of argueing, i was choosing to step out of the conversation. the admins have asked us to be polite in our responses.... and for me... hearing that these rats are being treated like chickens or turkeys in farms... (as i'm against their living conditions as well) - i just have nothing polite to add to this thread...

...Are you not reading our posts then?? EVERYONE who has posted that says they keep their males in with the females has said that back to back litters only happens RARELY if ever. All of us also have healthy adults producing healthy offspring...what's to argue about? It keeps coming across that you are trying to tell all of us who have been doing this for years...successfully without issues... that we are wrong in doing so. No one has once said that you where wrong OR that our ways where the right ways. Why can't you just accept the fact that myself and others are doing works for us and that our animals live healthy lives? The only one trying to argue is you unless I'm sorely mistaken but that is the way your coming across. Have I or anyone else not been polite when trying to explain these facts?

i have politely said i have nothing to add... in my eyes, this conversation is over. sorry tekwarren... :bolt:

feel free to discuss it without me though... i don't mind at all https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...4/7/hippie.gif

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

sorry guys... (and yup i mean guys cause you notice so far, only men feel that breeding back to back litters is okay for the female) :bolt:

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This is the only part of your post I have a problem with. :colbert: The issue has nothing to do with what gender I am. I never said I bred my females back to back. I said I don't have a problem with my females having back to back litters, because it doesn't happen with the males left in there. If you don't believe me you are welcome to come see my setups and see what I am talking about.

I may be missing something here, but it seems to me that the people that have said they dont remove their males, have also said they rarely if ever have a female having litters back to back like that. They have said it happens occasionally, and doesnt seem to be a problem, but thats only occasionally. If it happened over and over again it probably would be an issue, but as a rare occurance i wouldnt think it would be much of an issue either. If it did happen i would think it would be good to remove that female to make sure it didnt happen again, but if in general they arent having back to back litters, then i dont see a problem leaving them together.

ok too much tension in here, anyone care to dance?

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g3...tos/ratpic.jpg

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

sorry guys... (and yup i mean guys cause you notice so far, only men feel that breeding back to back litters is okay for the female)

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i'm sorry... but it was an observation... i didn't see any females that were agreeing with this.


i can't believe i'm posting in this thread again... but... i hear you all saying your don't breed back to back litters... so if you have 250 rats... how are you keeping track of all 250 and when they are birthing? sorry... but i doubt you are truly keeping track of who is birthing and who isn't... especially when you are housing multiple females together and we all know that rodents love to be nannies (help out the actual mother)... and so, it is my belief that your females are having back to back litters... i find it hard to believe the males are just leaving the females alone as it's my understanding of rat behaviour that an unbred female rat is the focus of any male around her. although some females may refuse the advance of the male... i find it hard to believe that 249 out of 250 are!

but... at the same time... i doubt you would mis-represent yourselves... hence the reason i said i would drop out of this thread... because my intelligent self finds what you are saying very very very hard to believe.

i respectfully defer to the FAQ on this site:

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19. How often can a female rat have new litters? A mouse?

Females can breed back to back litters so can produce a new litter as they are weaning their current litter. Just because they can doesn't always mean they should however. It is up to the rodent breeder to decide how to control the colony's reproduction in order to produce needed feeders, be cost effective but also not burn out good breeding females or produce less than healthy young because the female is worn down.

20. If I take away all a rat’s newborn babies, can she get pregnant again right away?

She can get pregnant whether or not she has young with her. If a male rodent is present and she is in estrus (heat cycle) she will breed whether young are nursing or not. Some female rodents will reject the male's advances while nursing, however, this is not a reliable way to ensure colony reproduction rates.

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btw, i love the dancing rattie!!! she rocks :sunny:

I have a setup with one male and 6 females. I have one large breeding tank where the male always lives; I place females in there to get bred and remove them once I see they're bred. They each go into their own 10g tank at this time to have their babies and get a respite before being reintroduced to the male.
I personally think it is shameful to overbreed female animals of any kind. How many times do you see pics of horese nursing their babies, while pregnant..? I know I might get flamed for saying it, but I think it's cruel to just have a female anything, constantly either pregnant or nursing. I believe they need time off to recuperate and just "be" without being leached off of by young. maybe being female makes me thnk this way; then again I chose not to breed personally.

While enjoying this discussion, I would just like to remind everyone that it is a discussion of differing ways to manage a breeding rodent colony, not a male/female thing or my way is better than your way. I think if we all keep an open mind we can learn a lot about different options in this thread. :)

Just as someone that manages a large herd of beef cattle will have different ways than a someone that has a few cattle in their fields....husbandry I think can be dependent sometimes on the sheer numbers involved to some extent. What Mike and I do with our colony of rats is partly our own views on husbandry and what we are comfortable with and also because we manage a colony of well under 100 rats which gives us the luxury of certain things.

No I don't particularily agree on back to back breeding, yes I do remove pregnant females to their own enclosures, no I don't agree with keeping rats in dark plastic tubs, yes we do keep and retire old breeders to pet status rather than feed them off but that's just how we do things around here. Doesn't mean anyone else has to do it that way or you are wrong if you don't. I think discussions like this help members considering rodent breeding to define how they want to manage their colony and make informed decisions for these creatures in their care.

Personally I think it's great to see our members caring about feeder rodents enough to participate in this discussion. Too often I see the term "just" feeders or "just" rats and that, if anything, bugs me. Considering these rats (or mice) are our snakes only food source, it's a valid thing to discuss and yes, debate different methods of colony management both for our snake's eventual benefit and the responsible management of the rats or mice.

I just want to point out that just because a female CAN get pregnant right away doesn't mean that they DO or WILL. I keep a notebook on how many litters come out of each tub including date, size of litter etc. This will help me decide when to retire my breeders. If I had back to back litters happening I would average 5 litters per month per tub (5 females per tub). My average is 2 per month, I think we all agree that back to back litters could impact the health of the female. But, in my case, it just isn't happening with my rodents.

I am gonna dance out of this thread (like a hula dancing rat) and see you guys in the other threads. :rockon:

P.S. I Love You Guys and Girls!!! :wuv:

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

I am gonna dance out of this thread (like a hula dancing rat) and see you guys in the other threads. :rockon:

P.S. I Love You Guys and Girls!!! :wuv:

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I'll take that https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...bellydance.gif with ya... and see you three https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../4/7/heart.gif https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../4/7/heart.gif https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../4/7/heart.gif


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../4/7/baby2.gif https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../4/7/baby2.gif https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../4/7/baby2.gif