One dead another dying HELP!!!

I treated my snakes last night and put everyone in rubbermaids until I thoroughly disinfected the tanks. Went to check water bowls this evening and my pastel was twisting around horribly. I washed him off thinking somehow I didn't fully rinse him last night, shortly after this he went into more severe convulsions and died. My het albino male is twitching and twisting as well and I am terrified I am going to loose him as well. Is there anything I can do to save him???Was this due to the mite spray, did I do something wrong??? The mite spray I bought was from a local reptile store I used to work for. Asking a current employee, the stuff is now stonger b/c people were complaining that he was "watering" down the spray too much. I was not told this beforehand and was not told that instead of letting them soak, just spray/dunk them and then rinse. Did my soaking them kill them? The other snakes I treated are fine, just these two from the same breeder (who btw I think is a great guy) who are having issues. I am so upset thinking that I killed my snakes, please if anyone has any ideas let me know.

you soaked, and dunked your snakes in mite spray?? thats definitely not good. i would put my money on thats what did it. you have to understand that even though safe for the snake when used properly (and soaking them in it is not properly) is safe, mite spray is still a pesticide. take the living animal to the vet and see if anything can be done, if not you jmight have to uthenize it so it doesn't have to suffer the poisoning (if that is the case). definitely bring the snake to the vet.

Is this a homebrew mite killer?:eek:

what did you use?

sending hugs your way! https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../4/7/heart.gif

I sprayed them, and let them sit for half an hour like told by the guy who owns the store. He makes it himself and has sold it for as long as I can remember. I have used it in the past with no issues- it has been used in the store with no issues. But from what I am hearing, he watered it down quite a bit in the past and did not water this down as much. I cannot get ahold of my vet and Medvet is dog/cat only. I cannot quit crying, I don't want him to suffer. I feel so helpless right now.

Oh and I do not know exactly what is in it but I do know promethryn is in it.

:hug: I wish I knew what to say. :hug:


The only thing I can think of is to call every emergency vet clinic anywhere near you and ask/beg them to see your snake. I wish I could be more help.

how could they sell that to you without proper instructions? i'd have them replace your losses (at least).

i'm so sorry to hear what's happening but i doubt you other snake will make it... and that breaks my heart as well. sending you some more hugs... (((hugs)))

If your snakes were exposed to any kind of permethrin-based pesticide for any extended period of time, they would experience moderate to severe nervous system damage which is probably what killed them. I did, in fact, learn this one the hard way some time ago.

I treated two of them via bogus instructions from someone I trusted at the time. I was told to soak the affected snakes in a diluted solution of a permethrin based flea/tick killer. After about 20 minutes, I noticed both animals "spinning" and otherwise exhibit symptoms of some kind of major neurological damage. One snake died sometime overnight and the other pulled through and recovered fully.

These types of pesticides are NOT meant to treat the animal directly and this thread should be a warning to anyone who gets this kind of advice from misinformed people.

I don't think I would trust some homebrew like that

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Originally Posted by catawhat75

I sprayed them, and let them sit for half an hour like told by the guy who owns the store. He makes it himself and has sold it for as long as I can remember. I have used it in the past with no issues- it has been used in the store with no issues. But from what I am hearing, he watered it down quite a bit in the past and did not water this down as much. I cannot get ahold of my vet and Medvet is dog/cat only. I cannot quit crying, I don't want him to suffer. I feel so helpless right now.

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I feel for your loss :( .Now this is not towards you ok? I do not think its legal for him to make and sale his home remedy crap.It sounds like to me your snakes were killed from to much pesticides in his crap:mad: .I would suggest to you not throwing the snake that is allready dead away.I would find a reptile vet as soon as possible,look for emergency vets open all night.Now after you find a reptile vet request a encropcy(is that spelled correct folks) to determine exactly what killed your snake.If your other snake dies have the same done for him.Once you have the proof of what killed your snake/snakes i would inform that pet store owner that he owes you the vet bills and the costs to replace your snake or snakes.If he tries to deny its his fault then contact your local authorities or sue him in small claims court.I realize that you are very upset right now,by him selling that crap he needs to be stopped.I am sorry if my posts upsets anyone.Stuff like this really gets me :mad: :mad: :mad: .Please let us know how things go ok?

"this thread should be a warning to anyone who gets this kind of advice from misinformed people"

What is scary is this mite spray is from Captive Born Reptiles. Terry is the "expert" on reptiles in our area and is big on the fight for reptile/owners rights pit tagging etc. I have been going to him for years, trusted him, worked for him etc...
He sells lots of this stuff at his store, he doesn't carry other mite spray. I for one will NEVER use anything like this again. I don't care who you know or what they say they know or how much of an expert they are- it is NOT WORTH YOUR PETS LIFE!

To recycling goddess and JLC, thank you for your kind thoughts, I appreciate them. To tmlowe5704- while I understand your view, right now it is not helpful. I feel horrible enough about this as it is. I have used this in the past and many others I know have as well with no ill effects. Had I known this could happen I would not have used it.

I am trying ER vets but no one works on reptiles. The only reptile vet I know of here in Columbus is Ann Crafton. OSU Vet might know about reptiles but they are closed.
On a postitve note I hope, I saw the second male drink a bit of water. He is a bit shaky but is not spinning.

Home brew tick and mite killers can be very usefull, but you absolutly have to know what you are doing. I make up a solution of 1 oz.nix added to 2/3 gallon of water. every bp that I take in on trade or buy to add to my collection goes through the process of being totally soaked in this for 15 minutes then a bath of clear water. no ticks or mites can survive this treatment. proper mite provention is very important, but It must be done properly. :)


Very sorry to hear about your loss, and it sounds like the other is beyond help.

this is great news! i'm so happy to hear he's doing better...

of course you wouldn't have used it if you had known... we all know that. https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../4/7/heart.gif





i hope no one else looses their snakes to his brew.

Ingrid, I feel awful for you. While it's never a good idea to use someone's "home brew", the fact that this person is the acknowledged herp expert in your community would have led you to follow his instructions, quite rightly assuming he knew his business. I'm sorry in this case that what he recommended became a deadly issue for one snake and quite possibly the other. Have you notified him in writing that his mite cure has caused the death and possible permanent damage to two snakes? I don't know if you have any ability to collect from him for the value of the snakes involved (likely not other than suing him and that would involve necropsy of the snake and so forth). I would still make sure you notified him in writing so that at least he might consider not selling this deadly brew of his to other unsuspecting owners. Have you considered a necropsy anyways on the snake that died just to make sure it was this mite stuff that killed it (highly likely it was but having a vet confirm same is a good idea for the rest of your collection).

Hugs to you dear, it must be a rotten time for you right now.

I am so sorry the only thing I can sugets is that you suggest that they replace your losses ASAP. And you might sugest that they discontinue selling that vodoo brew.

So sorry to hear about your loss. :(

If I am reading your first post correct you said you treated all your snakes w/ the pesticide? But only two seem affected and both where bought from the same breeder?
If that's the case then I would wonder why your others where not affected. If indeed it was a "bad brew" you would think all snakes would be suffering similar circumstances.

Very strange.
Hope the other one pulls thru.

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Originally Posted by jotay

So sorry to hear about your loss. :(

If I am reading your first post correct you said you treated all your snakes w/ the pesticide? But only two seem affected and both where bought from the same breeder?
If that's the case then I would wonder why your others where not affected. If indeed it was a "bad brew" you would think all snakes would be suffering similar circumstances.

Very strange.
Hope the other one pulls thru.

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Whoa i did not catch that part about both snakes who either died or was sick came from the same breeder.Now that does throw another possibility in to this.I guess myself being very mad about what happened here i overlooked that part.Good catch Jotay

Not sure if this will help you out.... however, I live in Mansfield, I go to a vet over in Galion (all the local pet shops use them for reptiles)... they do well with reptiles and have always treated my reptiles, fuzzies, and dogs great and with a reasonable cost attached... here is thier number:
419-462-8387

I realise it would be a heck of a drive from down there where you are, but, if you cant find another vet willing to see your snake/snakes now, I know my vet could and will.

Although, I would still wonder about those snakes since you treated all, and those two are the only ones with issues.

Sorry for your loss. I would definately be complaining to the person who sold you that mix. For someone to mix pesticides and distribute them without the proper licenses is against the law. If the guy wanted to mix something up and kill his own snakes that is fine....but to distribute a mixed up soup of chemicals to people is wrong and he should be reported to the authorities.

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Originally Posted by jotay

If that's the case then I would wonder why your others where not affected. If indeed it was a "bad brew" you would think all snakes would be suffering similar circumstances.

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I have my money on those two ball pythons consumed more of the 'mix' than the others. When soaking snakes, I have noticed that some will drink the water they are being soaked in....others will not. That could explain why only some were effected. ...after all being exposed to pesticides externally and drinking them are two completely different scenerios.

I'm very sorry to hear about your loss I know you must be devastated. To everyone reading this thread this is an example , read up on and be carefull with all chemical's used in the home and on your collection's.

Although it may very well be this homebrew pesticide that have caused this , are you sure that these balls havnt got ibd? you said that these two are from the same breeder i dont want to worry you even more but if it is ibd then its usally fatal and afaik it affect there nervous system
heres some systoms of ibd ive found at another site :-

Signs of infection in boids include central nervous system disorders such as paralysis, being unable to right itself when turned over, "star-gazing", inability to strike or constrict. Other signs include chronic regurgitation, extreme weight loss, respiratory infections, and dysecdysis due to the inability to control body movements enough to rub off the old skin. The disease is rapidly fatal in young and juvenile boas, typified by rapid onset of flaccid paralysis.

I really hope it isnt this virus , and hopefully im totally way off on this but if i were id get your bp to a vet asap

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Originally Posted by joepythons

I do not think its legal for him to make and sale his home remedy crap.

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i doubt it is as it wouldnt be allowed over here

Again, I truly appreciate everyones replies. Kahne, the het male is doing better. He is moving around his enclosure, flicking his tongue and has drank a bit more.
As for IBD, I don't think that is it, neither snake showed any signs of illness before being treated and with Kahne acting better, I am almost positive it was the spray. I have talked to the owner of the store, he says the stuff is safe, uses it all the time. Talked to the breeder as well and none of his snakes are ill. I am going to have a necropsy done just to be safe.

well if its drinking and looking better i doubt its ibd either then which is cool :) hope he makes a full recovery :) and a necropsy is a good idea mate :)

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Originally Posted by catawhat75

I am going to have a necropsy done just to be safe.

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did you freeze the snake?, i was told by a good reptile vet not to freeze if you are going to get it necro'd since freezing will ruin the cells and would not be able to get an acurate determination. i personally would challange the guy you purchased it from, if you have more of the same stuff, i would see if he would be willing to let you show him exactly what you did and use the stuff you purchased on some of his snakes, he may have messed the mix up ???? just my thoughts. i am sorry for the loss of one of your snakes, but i am glad the other seems to be getting better. i would still have it checked out by a vet though.

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Originally Posted by jcaustralia

did you freeze the snake?, i was told by a good reptile vet not to freeze if you are going to get it necro'd since freezing will ruin the cells and would not be able to get an acurate determination. i personally would challange the guy you purchased it from, if you have more of the same stuff, i would see if he would be willing to let you show him exactly what you did and use the stuff you purchased on some of his snakes, he may have messed the mix up ???? just my thoughts. i am sorry for the loss of one of your snakes, but i am glad the other seems to be getting better. i would still have it checked out by a vet though.

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I wouldn't have him try it out on his own snakes, One snake has already passed why risk more??? I don't see a sence in that...

I am terribly sorry about your loss.. I would make sure it was from the mite stuff and if it was I would take proper action in making sure it is not sold to anyone else....

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Originally Posted by Byte

I wouldn't have him try it out on his own snakes, One snake has already passed why risk more??? I don't see a sence in that...

I am terribly sorry about your loss.. I would make sure it was from the mite stuff and if it was I would take proper action in making sure it is not sold to anyone else....

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well the reason, not to be mean about it, the guy is swearing it was not his stuff, thus saying he is not liable, for him to even sell the stuff without epa aprovial i would strongly assume is illegal. it may have only been the batch he sold to her that was bad and may or may not have caused the loss of her snake. but if it was his stuff that caused the loss he should be liable for it. if he is not willing to risk one of his snakes then he should discontinue the sale of this stuff to the general puplic. that is what i ment.

I work at a veterinary ER, and we see permethrin/pyrethrin poisoning in cats quite commonly among people using the cheap Hartz/Biospot/Zodiac junk.

It's common for some cats in the household to be affected but not others, and we don't necessarily know why. It could be that some ingested what is meant to be a topical product, despite the instructions to apply it where they can't groom.

Either way, it's horribly nasty stuff and not something I'd ever apply directly to any animal I owned. I got lucky and learned from watching the devastation caused to other people's pets, rather than my own.

I never thought about it working on snakes, but it sounds like it causes the same thing in them as it does in cats and dogs. For those animals, we treat them with supportive care and wait to see if they come out of it. Some live, some die, some are left permanently neurologic. I am so sorry for the loss of your pastel, and I truly hope that your het recovers fully.

As far as a necropsy goes, I don't think there will be any gross pathology that can detect the damage; there may be a tissue or blood test for the concentrations of pyrethrins.

I am really sorry for your loss; hoping that your other one pulls through. I am sorry I have nthing really helpful to add; I would go to this guy and tell him he needs to refund you for your losses though. I don't see anything you did wrong here.

I talked to the vet earlier (if anyone ever is looking for a reptile vet in Columbus, OH- Ann Crafton is the BEST!) and spoke with her for at least 1/2 an hour. She agrees that is sounds like it was the spray and with the snake being a juvie his body just couldn't handle it. Without the necropsy there is no being 100% but that was her thought process as well. I did not freeze the snake so it will be going in tomorrow as a precaution. As for the store owner, I doubt he will take the stuff off the shelves- he says he uses it on his own snakes at home and the ones in the stores and it is safe. I have learned a hard lesson at the expense of my poor pastel but it is one that will not be repeated.

i hope all goes well with you and the vet tomorrow. my concern was if it happened to you how many others has it happened to that did not know anybetter or did not ask the question somewhere?, i would suggest you take the stuff to the vet with you they may be able to look at it and determine better?, but i would definitly get a writtin report from the vet and if it is found that is was the "stuff", i would take a copy to the guy and see if he will reimburse you for your loss. this i personally would bring it up because he is selling a non approved chemical that has not been aproved from the fda or epa for use on reptiles. just because he uses it doesn't make it ok to sell to the general public. i am shure alot of people have their "home" remedies for mites, some work some don't, but they generally do not sell it. good luck to you on this issue please keep us posted in what you decide to do.

sending more hugs your way... i think you could use some right now!

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../7/comfort.gif

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Originally Posted by catawhat75

I talked to the vet earlier (if anyone ever is looking for a reptile vet in Columbus, OH- Ann Crafton is the BEST!) and spoke with her for at least 1/2 an hour. She agrees that is sounds like it was the spray and with the snake being a juvie his body just couldn't handle it. Without the necropsy there is no being 100% but that was her thought process as well. I did not freeze the snake so it will be going in tomorrow as a precaution. As for the store owner, I doubt he will take the stuff off the shelves- he says he uses it on his own snakes at home and the ones in the stores and it is safe. I have learned a hard lesson at the expense of my poor pastel but it is one that will not be repeated.

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That store owner is a poor excuse.I bet once the proper authorities are notified of his making his own remedy and selling it out of his store he will regret it.If your vet is like the ones around myself they are expected to report any animal fatalities caused by poisonings and this should count as that.Now i have a question for you.If this pet store has such a constant infestation of mites that the owner has to make up his own brew to kill them,why do people buy anything from him? If nothing comes of him replacing your pastel, i would at the least post his info on his pet store so Ohio members can avoid him.If you decide to post this info you can post it in the inquiry section at the bottom of the subject page .Once again i am very sorry you and yours had to go thru this loss of your snake :( .

Aw.... I cant' imagine what this is like.... You should get the necropsy done. It might turn up some interesting results. Since the guy you bought it from is being a butthole, you should sue him. If he was nice and was like, "Oh, I'm sorry, I'll pay for your loss.", I would be pretty happy. Well, as happy as I possibly can be in that situation. Well, I hope your het gets better. :hug:

I am sorry for your loss and hope that your other fully recovers:(