First African soft-furred litter!

I got a trio of these guys a few weeks back and for last week or so could tell one of the females was pregnant. Well she had her babies last night sometime so I got up to a nice suprise! Supposedly they are supposed to be able to have large litters but this one was pretty small at about 8 or 9. I'm not dissapointed though its her first litter and I am just happy to see them producing already. The hair on the babies is amazing at less than a day old:

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Larger Pic

I've been interested in these... can you post pics of the parents?

You can get to the main gallery for these guys from the links above but here is the direct link:

Edit: the mother of this litter is the tanish colored one with red eyes.

African Rat's

They are neat rodents, the hair...fur is really something different from common rats/mice. They have virtually no smell and are very clean animals. I wouldn't have purchased these just because the prices are/where a little ridiculous at $50-$75 per trio. I got these from a guy on another forum who came up to a show and did some trading with me. He said he is 80% of his personal animals switched and couldn't be happier. I am looking at doing the same but will continue to keep mice and maybe some rats to raise any reptiles I would plan on selling.

Would you be willing to sell some of those rats? If you want I have a snake I would be willing to trade.

Wow I can't believe the hair growth on them so quickly! Very cool Heath! Me being a nut about rat breeding of course there's going to be a ton of questions here LOL.

Why use these over the more traditional domesticated rat? How are the temperments of the adults you currently have? Any difference in husbandry, hardiness or litter production? Are they known to be good parents as domesticated rats are usually i.e. is the male safe with his young? do the females generally accept their young readily? Any known difference in acceptance as a prey item by snakes? Can one feed some of these and some domestic rats or has this ever been tried to your knowledge? What is the difference in size at maturity and do they reach larger sizes more quickly? Are the stages of growth as nursing young comparable to domesticated rats or are they larger/smaller or quicker to pass through those stages to weanling size?

I know I can find some of this with research (which I will be doing tonight) but I always prefer some first person information/actual experience as well.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Wow I can't believe the hair growth on them so quickly! Very cool Heath! Me being a nut about rat breeding of course there's going to be a ton of questions here LOL.

Why use these over the more traditional domesticated rat? How are the temperments of the adults you currently have? Any difference in husbandry, hardiness or litter production? Are they known to be good parents as domesticated rats are usually i.e. is the male safe with his young? do the females generally accept their young readily? Any known difference in acceptance as a prey item by snakes? Can one feed some of these and some domestic rats or has this ever been tried to your knowledge? What is the difference in size at maturity and do they reach larger sizes more quickly? Are the stages of growth as nursing young comparable to domesticated rats or are they larger/smaller or quicker to pass through those stages to weanling size?

I know I can find some of this with research (which I will be doing tonight) but I always prefer some first person information/actual experience as well.

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Great question's Joanna you hit everything on the head. I two was surprised with the hair they look cool.

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Originally Posted by Emilio

Great question's Joanna you hit everything on the head. I two was surprised with the hair they look cool.

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I have a VERY enquiring mind! :D

I'll do my best with your questions as I'm new to these rodents myself but here goes:

Why use them?

Well for me it was the smell factor mostly. Even when raising rats/mice on a good diet and frequent cleanings they still have "that" smell. I keep them all in my house and have family friends always wanting to see the animals. Also this room doubles as our computer room/office. My wife and I both have computers in here and at times can be in the room for long periods. Also this species is supposed to be one that ball pythons actually consume natively in the wild.

Temperments?

I provide the utmost care to my rodents and have a genuine interest in them and their breeding, but I rarely "handle" any of them aside from cleaning or feeding days. From my observations these rats are MUCH less skittish and jumpy as adults. In my mouse tubs there is a first reaction generally of mice skittering into their hides or the corners of the tub when I first remove the lid. With these rats they seem to care less and are even curios and stand up to see what I'm doing. I have read that they can be quite "bitey" at times but haven't given them that chance yet. There has been zero conflict in the tub between the trio which includes one female that is noticeably smaller/younger. They almost always sleep as a "family".

Husbandry?

I am housing these rats the same exact way I do my rats mice. They are on aspen bedding in a good sized tub with hardware cloth replacing the center area of the tub. Food blocks always available and they transitioned over from a mix/seed diet without issue. They consume very little water throughout a week.

Hardiness/Litters?

Only having had these guys about a month I can't say with accuracy on their hardiness. I've read they are quite hardy and haven't had any problems myself in the short time so far. From reeding this species is capable of supporting large litters and females have an average of 8-12 teats! Litters are supposedly around 6-12 but from others keeping them they report generally large litters most of the time. As you saw above they are born with hair!

Parenting/acceptance?

The female who gave birth appears to be very attentive to her young as much so as regular rats/mice. She has been leaving the litter today only for food and water. While she away for a short time eating, the younger female actually took over sitting over the babies keeping them warm and cleaning them. I have not attempted to remove the male and he has posed absolutely no threat or even bothered the young at all. I've only checked in twice on the young and none of them appear to be neglected in any way and no visible "runts".

As prey items?

In talking with others these have started to become popular because of the feeding responce they can invoke on problem feeding snakes. As said above this rat is something that a ball python would encounter as a food item in the wild. Supposedly this fact *can* invoke great feeding responces especially in problem feeders and wild caught snakes. I have no experience in this yet as I'm just building up colony at this point. I would say that mixing these with domestic rodents and the success of doing so really depends on the reptile. We all know how ball pythons can be with prey items, so it would really depend on the specific animal and its preference or tolerance to different foods.

Size/growth?

They do not get as big as our normal rats by any means. When asking my wife for her comparison she said they are about 3x the size of an adult mouse and I would agree. The female that just gave birth is a little bit larger than the male. In talking to the person I got these from he really suggested I take pictures of the babies every other day and then compare them so I can see just how fast they really do grow. He tells me they mature quite fast from "pink" to hopper. From reading: eyes open in about 2 weeks, weaned at 21-24 days, and sexual maturity is reached at 3.5 months.

Most of the specifics are going of one of the very few places I have been able to obtain actual info. The site I see most referenced and which has been my main source of info is here: http://www.jirds.cwc.net/rag/profiles/nmmr.htm

I'll keep doing a photo every other day to document growth and keep this topic updated. Any other questions just ask and I'll do my best to answer them :)

WOW They are so cute. I will stick with domestic rats until you deliver some of those up here to me in Nebraska!! lol

leaving the male in with the female... isn't there a good chance she's going to get pregnant right away? wouldn't it be as detrimental to these rats as to our 'normal' rats to get pregnant right away?

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

leaving the male in with the female... isn't there a good chance she's going to get pregnant right away? wouldn't it be as detrimental to these rats as to our 'normal' rats to get pregnant right away?

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Define "detrimental"?

I have had many females be pregnant and give birth right before her first litter is weaned. I've had none die, and they get enough food that they don't thin out too much.

I would definitely say it is not ideal, but I wouldn't go far as to say it is detrimental. With the odds of the female letting the male do that to her, it would be very rare to see the female get pregnant many times in a row like this, unless she is just easy :)


That being said, I do seperate my rats ASAP, and often before they give birth to prevent this, but sometimes you have ninja poppers :)

detrimental - shortens their life span from breeding too frequently - doesn't give them time to regain any weight loss - doesn't give the time required for their body to recover.

just to name a few.

and saying

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"the odds of the female letting the male do that to her, it would be very rare to see the female get pregnant many times in a row like this, unless she is just easy"

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no comment!

African rats *can* become pregnant and give birth as soon as 25 days after having their last litter. That's only she accepts the male that soon.

That said I don't know of anyone off hand that is breeding rodents for reptile food that removes their males after their females start giving birth...I sure as heck don't. I need a constant supply and have never personally seen a decrease in the lifespan of my breeding colonies or in their health. There are plenty of other females in the breeding groups that I would say that this would be a rare issue...at least in my practices.

In my short breeding time only once has one of my female's gotten pregnant a week or so after dropping a litter. Remember when their in the wild or whatever there's no way to limit the nookie , I wonder how it work's when we are not controling the process.

i know they can hold the sperm and not gestate the babies until a little later when they are bred immediately after birthing...

but i just can't imagine this is in the best interest of the females. just because it can be done, doesn't make it ethical in my opinion.

i look at my breeders as living beings which deserve the same respect, care, love and attention as any other critter in my home. they may not get held as much... but i'm in there with silkworms, chicken bones and kind words daily. (actually in our home they are held daily as my daughter's care and attention to them is excellent)

I don't really consider rats as pets at all. They are kept for feeders and breeders only. I still give them everything to be happy, healthy, and live a long healthy life(or until fed off). You see it alot, feeders being treated bad. Skinny, dirty cages, and cheap if any food. Its really down to how you want to keep your rodents. You can let them breed over and over and live shorter lives possibly or you can try and make them live for a long time. Either way its up to you. What ever you do, make sure your feeders are being cared for to the best of your abbility

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Originally Posted by Emilio

In my short breeding time only once has one of my female's gotten pregnant a week or so after dropping a litter. Remember when their in the wild or whatever there's no way to limit the nookie , I wonder how it work's when we are not controling the process.

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Well to be honest in the wild the adult females aren't confined in a small area with a breeding male either so comparing wild reproduction to captive breeding just doesn't work.

For me leaving an adult male rat in with a female with a litter doesn't work. I don't need or want that kind of rat production going on or want my females breeding back to back or being harrassed to breed while nursing young. I believe it helps my females be healthier if they are bred less often and their offspring to be better nutured by her body both in utero and during nursing. For me, it makes sense that a stronger female rat produces stronger pinks that grow into stronger feeders. It's also part of my philosophy on to not allow breeding if I think it compromises any creatures wellbeing and yes guys, that includes rats. These aren't purely pets to me, they have a job in our home to produce feeders for the snakes but they aren't living in a production environment either. Works for me, doesn't have to work for anybody else.

Now back to the original thread LOL. These rats sound really interesting Heath. Thanks for talking the time to answer my questions and provide that link.

I agree with you Joanna I don't wanna look as if I don't care about the females I'm learning as I go. My female's look good none of them are skinny and I've only had one still born out of 72 babie's . The one still born was from my fattest female who not by coincidence has the smallest litter's. To tekwarren this thread is awesome I'm interested more and more with these african rat's like most have said keep us posted as your endeavor roll's on.

I have a close up pic of day 3, although not all that much difference. I think I'll wait a few more days for the next shot untill there is more visible development so I can document better the growth/maturity rate. All are still doing great and fuzzy as ever:

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Edit/Add: as I stated above generally we don't handle the rodents but the adults look to soft not to want to touch but we don't know their temperments while being held. The babies will probably get some handling time and we'll see how the temperment goes by starting young.

it's so odd seeing pinks with fur!

I had a chance to pick some of these up from Bryan Kollwitz before leaving Indiana and I'm beginning to kick myself for not doing so. Nice litter!

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Well to be honest in the wild the adult females aren't confined in a small area with a breeding male either so comparing wild reproduction to captive breeding just doesn't work.

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Not entirely true. Think about the places that you see rats and mice at in the wild. A lot of times there is a massive infestation (ie. over-run houses), so my guess is that they are almost instantly pregnant again under those circumstances. It would be interesting to see some type of scientific approach to see if life-spans are decreased by this, since right now it is only speculation.

folks kindly let me keep my topic focus on the litter and their development rather than each others breeding practices ok?

Not that I don't want to hear your oppinions but a seperate topic would be a little more courteous.

Saturday the pups of this litter where exactly one week old so I snapped another shot for my album/records. Their hair/fur is definately starting to get thicker. You can kinda tell where the pattern/color lines will be but its still pretty early yet to really tell.

The previous links above will not work anymore my gallery went through some um..."re-arranging" to say the least but I got it back up. Here is a link to the main album for my ASF rats:

http://warrenreptiles.com/gallery/ma...?g2_itemId=340

ahhh so cute!

I can't wait untill they start pop'n around :)

I never keep my preggo/birthing/nursing female rats w/ a male, or even w/ another female. I let them give birth, burse and raise the babies; then I give them about a week to recuperate and rest before re-breeding. The way I think of it, if I were to come back in another life as one of my female breeder rats, I would be happier this way than being constantly bred.
To keep this on topic.. awesome rats Tek! That is definately something different; hopefully people can start breeding mroe so that they'll be more widespread in the hobby.

Heath do those african's rat's look like they grow slower?

The guy who got me into these rats said that to him they seem to grow/mature at a pretty good rate. Me personally, I can't say for sure this being my first litter. I can honestly say that it might seem a bit slower only because I am excited about them and anticipating their development. They have noticeably increased in size in just the one week, and as I commented I can already see color/pattern breaks in their fur and its thickening up.

According the care sheet I've based all my info on they open their eyes at 14-16 days so I'm really looking forward to next weekend or early the following week for this development.

Two weeks old today!

Here's all 8 of them: http://warrenreptiles.com/gallery/ma...g2_itemId=1103

My wife holding one: http://warrenreptiles.com/gallery/ma...g2_itemId=1100

They are becoming pretty active, eyes should be opening any day now!

Day 16 we have eye openage! My wife and I observed two of the little ones that had their eyes open tonight. There could be more but I didn't disturb them as most of them where sleeping. The two we saw had red eyes just like the mother. By tomorrow all of them should have fully opened eyes and I'll be adding a photo to my gallery growth log.

I can't wait to see a picture of them with their eyes open. They are so cute and furry!


-Andre

Everyone has had their eyes open for at least a day, here is a closeup of one of them...and my wife's lovely horse farm worn hands :P


http://warrenreptiles.com/gallery/ma...g2_itemId=1106

Very cute! Can't wait to see how they mature for you.

This litter was weaned yesterday at 3 weeks. All are doing well and VERY soft...my wife can't keep her hands of them :P

The other female in my main trio is well along so more on the way woohoo!


http://warrenreptiles.com/gallery/ma...g2_itemId=1115

Counted 13 babies this morning in the litter that dropped last night YEEHAA! That's more like it! The phasing out of my other rodents might be sooner than I thought if they keep this up.

Very nice Heath! I may have to get a pair of them off of you at some point.

4 weeks old today! http://warrenreptiles.com/gallery/ma...?g2_itemId=340

Most of them are about the size of a mature mouse. I handled a couple this morning again and they are still a bit jump but after a few seconds content to explore the length of my arm. I also gave them a treat you'll see in one of today's pics. The album is showing a pretty good evolution of maturity.


Also about to change my avatar pic ;)

Heath, have you noticed any noticeable difference in the smell from your African rat colony? I'm wondering if raising these instead of regular rats would help to eliminate/reduce the smell of a rodent colony.

When they're ready, and you have inventory, I'd like to try a couple and see if I can break Zeus' & Freddie's fasts. Zeus is at 9 weeks, & had a prev. small rat after starting fast of 8 weeks. Looks like Freddie is following in Zeus' squirmy path and has refused a rat four weeks in a row.


Since my temps and humidity are spot on, maybe the rats would do the trick....Hmmmmmm Otherwise I'll try live weanlings next Sunday. (I have six right now. Maybe they'll work.)

Good looking babies Heath. Continued good luck w/the larger litters and successful breeding/raising.

R

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Originally Posted by Alice

Heath, have you noticed any noticeable difference in the smell from your African rat colony? I'm wondering if raising these instead of regular rats would help to eliminate/reduce the smell of a rodent colony.

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You bet I have! Cleaning their tubs once a week no one would ever know they where there. I have let a tub go two weeks (female had babies on cleaning day) and by the next weekend...the tub still didn't smell. These rats rock!

Hey TekWarren (Sorry if I do not know you by your name)


I have been wanting a pair of these, because I want my Bp to be fed food more closely to what he should be eating. How much would you be willing to sell a pair, or a trio? Or maybe we can have a trade? Im very interested.

Also are those African soft furred rodents going to be the size of a rat or a mouse when fully grown?

These guys do not get up the size of our domestic rats. Feeding an adult ball python or similiar sized snake two of these af. rats would be a decent meal without over feading.

I probably will start offering these for sale once my colony is built up but I won't get into shipping. More than likely just the local reptile shows and personal meetings with those who want some. I have only seen them for sale at two different shows here in MI this year (didn't see any at today's show) and they where $75/trio $50/pair but I'll consider my pricing (or trades) when the time comes.

Just for fun: two handfulls of warm fuzzy critters!
http://warrenreptiles.com/temp/pile.jpg

I have been breeding these for about the last 6 months and I am getting over run with them. These things breed way better than my domestic rats. I have 5 groups of 1.4 now and probably 150-200 sub adults. My litter size averages 13-15. I leave the groups together while they raise the young and have not witnessed any cannibalism. What I like best about them is they only urinate in 1 corner of the cage so spot cleaning is easy. They do grow pretty slow but I only feed them to my picky feeders so I don't really need too many so it's not a problem. If anyone in the central FL area is looking for these I have plenty that I will sell cheap. I even have a few prego females I would be willing to part with. There are a couple of negatives with these guy are that they are pretty mean compared to domestic rats. They will bite. Their bite does not really hurt but you have to watch out. They have never broken skin on me but I try not to give them a chance. The other thing I have notice is they will chew out of any plastic tubs unless there is absolutely nowhere for them to get their teeth into. I have had to modify my rack to tighten the tolerances.

awwwwww. how cute! idk if i can feed my snakes tonight now :(
hahaha

Nice sneaking a for sale plug into my topic here pfan151 :LOL:

These things do reproduce like mad, your not joking there. Although mine seem to growing out at a good rate. They are slowly taking over my rodent colony. I'm feeding them to animals I know I will have long term (indefinately) rather than just using them for picky eaters. I like the lack of smell to much and and you said they don't urinate over every square inch of tub.

Question for yaa..



Is there anyway to tell these 'African Rats' from 'Domestic Rats' when younger?



I went to a show yesterday and my reg. supplier of pups and sm. rats was not able to fill my order and I came across large wheeler & dealer of reptiles and he had a few tubs of pups and rats. I bought a few dozen to tide me over till I could get next batch from my regular source. The ones I bought appear to have longer hair and are little odd looking compared to what I am use to, not as slicked back as normal. I brought them home and fed about 1/3rd of them to my snakes and threw the rest in a holding tank I have. I noticed they all seemed to hang together and this morning when I checked on them I thought they all died overnight. They were all piled up on one another with some of them laying on their backs and feet sticking out. I opened the tank and reached in to find that they were just fine and sleeping all as one mass. I never saw this before. So that is why I ask.



I did notice at the show that there were rats for sale in the $20 range. I just ignored them and moved on as I had no clue what they were and wife says no rodents as pets and a $20 rodent would be a pet! :colbert:

If you look at some of the links I posted in this topic you can see what these african rats look like during their stages of maturity and compare them to what you picked up.

These guys do display some of the characteristics you mentioned such as sleeping in piles in all sorts of funny contorted positions but compare them to my photo log.