When do mice/rats go bad?

I am seriously considering purchasing a ball python as a pet. Don't wory, I have done extensive research on balls and have a good deal of knowledge on reptiles in general.

After reading about frozen/thawed rodents as food, a question arose to me. If I place a thawed and warmed rodent into the enclosure and the snake does not feed upon it within about 30 minutes Is it safe to refreeze the rodent and try again later? Or should it be disposed of because of potential bacterial problems?

How many times can a rodent be thawed/unthawed before its unsafe?

I would prefer to use live mice (with supervision of course).Are there Any experienced herpeticulturists that have observed benifits to live verses dead? I have heard that its okay, but not exactly recommended do to possible injury of the snake.

Austin

Both F/T and live have their pros and cons. Live rodents can harm your snake, but it's rare if fed to your snake correctly. Also, f/t can be a potential danger if you feed a rodent that hasn't defrosted completely or has "cooked" if heated too warm.

F/T rodents can last over a year if vacuum packed, or a couple of months if stored in a zip-loc bag. They can be left overnight without a problem, but the ones left overnight should be disposed of. If you have a snake that won't eat a f/t rodent, you can refreeze it once. You may be able to freeze it a second time, but I wouldn't recommend it. Each time you freeze the rodent, the freezing process will break down the cells and it will become mushier. After a second time it's pretty mushy and you already risk it breaking open with all of the unpleasantness that can bring, so I can't imagine what would happen if you tried it a second time.

There are a number of F/T vs. Live discussions on this forum... just do a search for "feeding live".

I don't have any experience with live, but I've never tried to reuse a mouse. I have only had one or two instances where the mouse wasn't taken within 30 minutes, and in those cases, I threw out the mouse and waited a week. I would venture to guess you could safely re-freeze the mouse once and try again, but I've never tried it.

I only refreeze the rodent once if its not eaten within a hour.Normally if your snakes are on a schedual you should not have a refusal to eat.If you refreeze more then once you will regret it when you defrost it the next time ;) :P .

yeah um guys i feed mine F/T and i feed him in his cage but I use tongs and dangle it in front of his hide and he snatches it up within a minute so wha t are you guys saying you do just drop the "Pre-Heated" mouse in a box with it an he eats it up :confused: ?

i just confused on how you feed yours and why at least for you guys it would sit for 30 min or so

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Originally Posted by Loki

yeah um guys i feed mine F/T and i feed him in his cage but I use tongs and dangle it in front of his hide and he snatches it up within a minute so wha t are you guys saying you do just drop the "Pre-Heated" mouse in a box with it an he eats it up :confused: ?

i just confused on how you feed yours and why at least for you guys it would sit for 30 min or so

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My het albino ball will not eat if i remained in the area.So i just place the prey item amongst the newspapers and check back later.I feed all my snakes in there enclosures as its easier for me.Now my corn snakes the frozen thawed prey item does not hit the bottom of the enclosure before they are on it:eek: .They are very calm until they smell FOOD:D .

Loki,


I assume most snake owners do not dangle the rodent infront of their snakes because it could lead to the snake accosiating a hand with food.

Sorry guys if I asked a rather repeated question but I'm still new to this particular board and I'm not familiar with its ins and outs. I'll use the search next time.

Thanks,
Austin

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Originally Posted by Austin Smith

Loki,


I assume most snake owners do not dangle the rodent infront of their snakes because it could lead to the snake accosiating a hand with food.

Sorry guys if I asked a rather repeated question but I'm still new to this particular board and I'm not familiar with its ins and outs. I'll use the search next time.

Thanks,
Austin

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Hey no problem:cool: .Sometimes certain questions need to be updated if you will.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

If you refreeze more then once you will regret it when you defrost it the next time ;) :P .

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Ain't that the truth... :puke2:

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Originally Posted by Austin Smith

Loki,


I assume most snake owners do not dangle the rodent infront of their snakes because it could lead to the snake accosiating a hand with food.

Sorry guys if I asked a rather repeated question but I'm still new to this particular board and I'm not familiar with its ins and outs. I'll use the search next time.

Thanks,
Austin

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Most snakes won't associate the food with a human hand Austin as most keepers know to use hemostats, long tweezers or tongs to actually hold the frozen/thawed or pre-killed rodent with. Feeding direct from the hand leads to SFE's (stupid feeding errors LOL). The dangling is actually more of an attempt to replicate the lifelike movements of a live prey item in order to encourage a feeding strike (you'll see it called the "zombie mouse dance" or the "dead rat boogie" :) )

We currently feed all live (both mice and rats). When we fed f/t we only refroze prey items that were fully furred. Pinkie size tend to be very mushy if refrozen. Prey items that were refused and removed within 30 minutes were refrozen immediately but marked as a refreeze with the snake's name so it was only offered back to that same snake (to avoid prey sharing between those in quarantine and the regular collection). Anything that was left longer was tossed out.

Whether you choose to feed live, frozen/thawed or pre-killed is up to you and the snake. All feeding methods are appropriate if done correctly. In the end it will be mostly the snake that decides as they tend to imprint on a prey type and a feeding method pretty strongly. Part of your purchasing decisions should be looking for a young healthy snake that has been fed in the method you prefer and with prey (rats or mice) that you can supply it with regularily and of a superior quality.

If you need any help to locate specific threads using our search function, caresheets, etc. please don't hesitate to ask. It sounds like you are trying to get your bases covered before buying the snake and that's always a good thing. There are also some great threads about housing, heating, etc. that will give you some good ideas and likely save you a ton of money (pet stores are notorious for overcharging and selling you things you do not need...they are also not the best source for a good snake).

pre killed or stunned and sometimes live is what my snakes get. my small BCI won't touch f/t and my ball takes for every for that. prekilled live or stunned is a different story though for the ball.

I've read into enclosure set ups extensivley, and I previously owned a Green Iguana so I know about the various reptile products. I just have no experience with food that is, or was, once alive.

I'll give live rodents a try I suppose and move pre-killed if that falls through.

As I said earlier, I'm most likely going to purchas a python from Petco. I have looked over the ones that have available and they appear to be healthy. I just hope they are captive bread.

If anyone knows a breeder in the beaumont-houston area of Texas please let mw know as I would feel much more comfortable buying directly from a breeder.

Thanks for the advice,
Austin

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Originally Posted by Austin Smith

I've read into enclosure set ups extensivley, and I previously owned a Green Iguana so I know about the various reptile products. I just have no experience with food that is, or was, once alive.

I'll give live rodents a try I suppose and move pre-killed if that falls through.

As I said earlier, I'm most likely going to purchas a python from Petco. I have looked over the ones that have available and they appear to be healthy. I just hope they are captive bread.

If anyone knows a breeder in the beaumont-houston area of Texas please let mw know as I would feel much more comfortable buying directly from a breeder.

Thanks for the advice,
Austin

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I would avoid Petco along with most pet places when buying snakes. Although it may look healthy it may also have internal diseases. They house like 20 together and most are Captive Hatched which is really gambling when trying to pick the healthy one. I know there are a bunch of people on here from Texas, so maybe they will respond with "Worthy Texan Breeder" for ya!!

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Originally Posted by Austin Smith

I'll give live rodents a try I suppose and move pre-killed if that falls through.

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It's normally easier to get your snake to eat live. It's converting it to f/t that will sometimes be a problem.

While some have been known to get decent pet store snakes (I own a few actually), the simple fact is the vast majority of them are not well started, good eaters, particularily healthy or in fact, captive bred and hatched.

I'm not good on Texas geography so I'm not sure how close you are to some of their excellent snake shows but we have a number of great members here and one Moderator from that state and I'm sure they can give you info on that. As well a reputable breeder can ship you the snake of your choice through FedEx in such a way to make the shipping smooth and easy for you and the snake. I just received an 06 female from Cueball in Texas this week in this manner and she's already well settled in here.

Just be very careful. Not everyone who tosses up an online ad at kingsnake is a reputable breeder unfortunately. Fortunately for us here at BPNet we have a good number of extremely reputable breeders as members.

I was really wandering if people actually mail the snakes. How does that work? Seems Like it could be pretty stressful on the animal. There's no telling what they do with those packages o.o.

Austin

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Originally Posted by Austin Smith

I was really wandering if people actually mail the snakes. How does that work? Seems Like it could be pretty stressful on the animal. There's no telling what they do with those packages o.o.

Austin

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Snakes are shipped all the time and if you deal with a breeder that knows how to properly ship animals there will be no problems.

and as far a getting a snake from Petco.......how do you think the captive hatched ball pythons ended up at Petco? They came over in crates from Africa to the wholesaler, then they were shipped to the Petco store.

Buy a captive born and breed baby from a reputable breeder and you will be amazed at the quality of service and support you receive.

Here are a few people to check out for good quality ball pythons:
www.baileyreptiles.com/available4.html
www.8ballpythons.com

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Originally Posted by Austin Smith

I was really wandering if people actually mail the snakes. How does that work? Seems Like it could be pretty stressful on the animal. There's no telling what they do with those packages o.o.

Austin

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You can't actually mail a snake...illegal through the United States Postal Service as far as I'm aware. Those breeders that use FedEx are first certified to do so, then the snakes come by air and truck from the breeder to the customer overnight. It seems a perfectly good system. Our snakes that have been delivered by FedEx have come here in great shape as FedEx requires as part of their certification that the breeder send in a sample box of how they will pack the live snakes for transport. As long as the breeder adjusts for temps (use of hot or cool packs if required) and knows what he or she is doing it's safe for the snake.