can you breed siblings?

okay... so if i have two snakes... and i want to breed them.

can i breed the babies back to the parents?

can i breed the babies to each other?

how about... breeding the babies from one clutch to the babies in another clutch but same parents to both clutches?

I think...yes...a lot of breeders will breed babies back to parents. Siblings....eehhhhh i dunno..maybe.

Perhaps Adam and his words of wisdom will chime in :carrot:

You can actualy do both though it shouldn't be done too much. The plus point to doing this is to narrow your gene pool to known genetics or line breed a forum of morph ie. Bloodred corns. This can lead to problems as you also raise the chance of bringing out unwanted ressive genes ie, deformities and so on. So you'll want to out cross you lines every so often to keep them fresh. Breeding half siblings is also a good way of producing most morphs.

well i have a normal male which i'll be adding into my eventual breeding projects... so that'll bring some new bloodlines into the mix.

thanks guys... this is the info i needed :)

There are many good threads in the breeding forum about this... take a lookie :)

sibling x sibling =no
offspring x parent = okay for about 1-2 generations but after that you will get deformities(ex:eye problems)

edit:i forgot to mention its possible to breed siblings but not recomended. :)

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Originally Posted by uro1001

sibling x sibling =no
offspring x parent = okay for about 1-2 generations but after that you will get deformities(ex:eye problems)

edit:i forgot to mention its possible to breed siblings but not recomended. :)

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Please give a rationale for why sib to sib crosses are not okay or recommended. Parents and offspring share 50% of their total genetic material while full siblings also share 50% of their genetic material.

this is like the what type of feed is better live or dead. you are going to get thousands of different opinions. i personally think it is ok to breed siblings x siblings and siblings x parents. with out it there would not be many of the morphs out there. but some inbreeding is highley frowned on. like albino to albino. most people dont even like breeding unrelated albs together.

personally i don't ever want to do that, sure it's useful for proving out possible hets, but i'm wary of deformities etc...

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Originally Posted by BALLISTIC BOAS

most people dont even like breeding unrelated albs together.

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Really? I am quite skeptical of this statement.....as long as the albinos are of high-quality and are compatible (i.e. of the same gene) then I see no reason why a breeder wouldnt breed them.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Really? I am quite skeptical of this statement.

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Me too ... imagine that. :O :D :twisted: :sweeet:

-adam

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Originally Posted by uro1001

sibling x sibling =no

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Why not? I see them all the time....as a matter of fact.....I have a pair of corns that are sibs and will be paired up in the near future! Snakes arnt dogs.;) There snakes.

sorry i was refering to boas. adam isnt the geen for anbalism the same for both. so why would there be a difference. just cuerious.

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Originally Posted by BALLISTIC BOAS

sorry i was refering to boas. brian sharp breed un related albino boas and they came out with one eye. this has happened to many people in the boa world. adam isnt the geen for anbalism the same for both. so why would there be a difference.

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They are both ressessive ,yes. But bieng ressesive ,Dom, or Co-Dom doesnt have any effect on whether the snake has deffects or not.

thanks. for the 411

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Originally Posted by BALLISTIC BOAS

sorry i was refering to boas. adam isnt the geen for anbalism the same for both. so why would there be a difference. just cuerious.

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Huh? Difference in what? I dunt undastain whut u b sayn???

I was agreeing with Medels statement. The reason breeders of any species don't breed albino x albino of different compatible lines has nothing to do with genetics.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Please give a rationale for why sib to sib crosses are not okay or recommended. Parents and offspring share 50% of their total genetic material while full siblings also share 50% of their genetic material.

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i knew something like this would come up. (ive already gone through this with abernet on another forum) the whole inbreeding thing after about 2 generations is not a good idea as if physical deformities dont occur some deformities may become visible after several generations. its not worth screwing up the gene pool(after more than 2 gens of inbreeding).

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Originally Posted by uro1001

i knew something like this would come up. (ive already gone through this with abernet on another forum) the whole inbreeding thing after about 2 generations is not a good idea as if physical deformities dont occur some deformities may become visible after several generations. its not worth screwing up the gene pool(after more than 2 gens of inbreeding).

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Do you have any literature (scientific or otherwise) that cites this "2 generation" rule or are you just giving your opinion?

-adam

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...%20reptiles%22
its a study on lizards but its close enough :)

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Originally Posted by uro1001

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...%20reptiles%22
its a study on lizards but its close enough :)

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Do you have any practical experience with ball pythons where deformities were seen after more than 2 generations of inbreeding siblings?

-adam

Line breeding has and always will go past the 2 generation of breeding with out it many morphs couldn't have been produced ie. Bloored corns, Silverqueen ghost, jungle BP's, and high yellow Leopard geckos to name a few. Though the more you line/inbreed the more likly you are to come across unwanted results. So most breeders don't breed past the F4 (Family 4) Generation. Not to say with a careful eye on breeding stock the "bad genetics" can't be weeded out, but it's really uneeded when you can outcross and recover recessive traits every 4 generations. Leopard geckos have been bred from the same stock for the last 25 years sice import of these stopped so the gene pool though diverse has been the same for that long with out problems.

For your reading pleasue. http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Inbreeding.html

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Originally Posted by uro1001

(ive already gone through this with abernet on another forum) the whole inbreeding thing after about 2 generations is not a good idea as if physical deformities dont occur some deformities may become visible after several generations. its not worth screwing up the gene pool(after more than 2 gens of inbreeding).

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Huh? Where was I? I don't remember this conversation - although I know the other forum, since it's the only other one I know you from.

The only things I really see having problems from inbreeding are mammals.

To add to the question...Why dont you see problems in reptile inbreeding offen? What symptomes do they normaly see? Derma ball type things? Loss of eyes? Chimeras?

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Originally Posted by uro1001

i knew something like this would come up. (ive already gone through this with abernet on another forum) the whole inbreeding thing after about 2 generations is not a good idea as if physical deformities dont occur some deformities may become visible after several generations. its not worth screwing up the gene pool(after more than 2 gens of inbreeding).

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Originally Posted by uro1001

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...%20reptiles%22
its a study on lizards but its close enough :)

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You still did not address the issue of why sib to sib inbreeding is allegedly different or worse than parent to offspring inbreeding.

While I applaud your effort to find primary scientific research to support your claim, I caution you that it really isnt useful to be a consumer of scientific research instead--you need to be a critical reader of research.

Often in biology you can make cross-species/cross-taxonomic comparisons and generaliztions, however, in this case its a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

The effects of inbreeding over generations by man are going to depend on the initial genetic structure of the population. Inbreeding for one generation in a captive population derived from a population of organisms that has undergone a major genetic bottleneck in its natural history can be fatal! Think cheetahs! That why zoos desperatly try to outbred them!

Now I dont beleive that ball pythons have undergone major genetic bottlenecks---there seems to be a lot of genetic diversity in the wild caught population (as evidenced by the number of base morphs). Hence, I dont think you can say for certain at this point when inbreeding will start to have serious consequences in the captive ball python population. Of course common sense can be applied....sib-to-sib inbreeding for 10-15 generations with no outbreeding isnt likely to produce desirable results.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Huh? Where was I? I don't remember this conversation - although I know the other forum, since it's the only other one I know you from.

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it was on repticzone.com a while back.

adam, i have seen several(not mine) albino,norm,hets and various other deformed bps not concluded from inbreeding but most were suspected. im dropping out of this subject as some type of debate always comes up.

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Originally Posted by uro1001

it was on repticzone.com a while back.

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Yes, I know the forum - I don't remember the conversation :confuzd:

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Originally Posted by uro1001

i have seen several(not mine) albino,norm,hets and various other deformed bps not concluded from inbreeding but most were suspected.

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So you're giving your OPINION ... gotcha ... that's all I wanted to know. ;)

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Originally Posted by uro1001

im dropping out of this subject as some type of debate always comes up.

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Well, that's convenient ... kinda like yelling FIRE in a crowded movie theater and running like heck .... nice. ;)

-adam

Mendel, I remember reading a post you made some time ago about how the reason why ball pythons have so many varying mutations is because there is a relatively high population in a concentrated geographic area. Given this, would they be more or less resilient to "genetic bottlenecking" than other species with more geographically dispersed populations?

i think adam knows 100!

People have mentioned bloodred corns a few times. I've got a small group of bloodred corns I got from Kathy Love a number of years ago that I've been breeding for several years. While most of the hatchlings are great snakes and surprising good feeders (bloodreds have a reputation for being picky feeders that need lizard scenting, I've never had that problem with these) However I do get one or two in every clutch that are 'neurologically challenged' IE: they spin like some spiders do. (but they have such neat personalities :rolleyes: ) Is that a result of inbreeding? Of Just an anomoly of the particular parents that I have. (they were allegedy non-siblings from seperate breeding groups that Kathy had, though ALL bloodred corns are somewhat related)

However, I'm also working with a line of ghost corns that I've personally bred though the 4th generation now and I've seen NO problems with them. Does that mean that inbreeding is fine? Or does it just mean that I've been lucky?

And actually, since they are completely different species, comparing corns to balls probably does no good at all. I personally don't know anyone who has bred sibling balls together through more then 2 generations, so I really don't know what would happen. (and I doubt very many other people would know either)

When all is said and done, my advise would be to just try it for yourself, keep good records, and post your findings.

Mark

mark,

i think larger, reputable breeders like adam for example, would know if you could breed longer than 2 generations of siblings.

and once i actually buy balls to breed and grow them up for a few years... then i'll be ready to start. but research needs to start now :) cause i imagine there's soooo much to learn! :P

thanks for sharing your experience. :D

in light,
aleesha

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

i think larger, reputable breeders like adam for example, would know if you could breed longer than 2 generations of siblings.

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Actually, I don't ... but that's just because I've never tried. I try to diversify my bloodlines and outcross as much as possible just to be safe.

I enjoyed Marks post.

-adam

so adam, what is your knowledge and/or opinion on this?

(this is the link i'm using to get the genetics from http://www.ballpython.ca/what_get/recessive.html )

for example: if you buy two 100% het pieds - breed them and get 1 pied, 2 hets and a normal from the clutch... so then you would breed the pied back to either it's mom or dad (depending on whether it's a male or female) and you get 2 pieds and 2 hets.

so now you have 1 pied which has produced 2 pieds.

can you then breed back the youngest pieds (depending on sex of course) to their parent pied and start producing pieds?

(or pastels or whatever...)

or is this considered too much inbreeding?

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

so adam, what is your knowledge and/or opinion on this?

(this is the link i'm using to get the genetics from http://www.ballpython.ca/what_get/recessive.html )

for example: if you buy two 100% het pieds - breed them and get 1 pied, 2 hets and a normal from the clutch... so then you would breed the pied back to either it's mom or dad (depending on whether it's a male or female) and you get 2 pieds and 2 hets.

so now you have 1 pied which has produced 2 pieds.

can you then breed back the youngest pieds (depending on sex of course) to their parent pied and start producing pieds?

(or pastels or whatever...)

or is this considered too much inbreeding?

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You could certainly try it ... I think that Marks point was that with ball pythons, for many mutations, we haven't gotten that far yet ... the project you described is at least 8 years long ... by then, you should think about at least trading some of your offspring out to diversify your genetics ... it certainly couldn't hurt. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You could certainly try it ... I think that Marks point was that with ball pythons, for many mutations, we haven't gotten that far yet ... the project you described is at least 8 years long ... by then, you should think about at least trading some of your offspring out to diversify your genetics ... it certainly couldn't hurt. ;)

-adam

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that's about what i figured... and i also thought i would hopefully have some other breeders up here in canada that i can trade with to diversify. :carrot:

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I think that Marks point was that with ball pythons, for many mutations, we haven't gotten that far yet ... the project you described is at least 8 years long ..

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Exactly right Adam. For instance, I've got a pair of albinos that I held back from my first albino clutch and the female might be big enough to breed this year. They are siblings that were produced by breeding a pair of hets together, so they are pretty well outbred themselves. Should I breed them together this year? I know I'll be breeding the male to a number of females, but should I also breed him to his sister?

I really don't have anything else that I would want to breed her to. I've got a bunch of het males but I can't see producing a bunch of het albinos/possible het something else.... I could breed her to a pastel, and produce some pastels het albino, but I've seen the albino pastels and I wasn't that impressed. Frankly it's taken me over 5 years to get to this point, and I think what I'd really like to see is a nice entire clutch of albinos... Will I have trouble with breeding siblings together? My previous experience with other species of snakes tells me that I probably won't have any problems at all, though I'll probably catch flack for it...

Mark

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Exactly right Adam. For instance, I've got a pair of albinos that I held back from my first albino clutch and the female might be big enough to breed this year. They are siblings that were produced by breeding a pair of hets together, so they are pretty well outbred themselves. Should I breed them together this year? I know I'll be breeding the male to a number of females, but should I also breed him to his sister?

I really don't have anything else that I would want to breed her to. I've got a bunch of het males but I can't see producing a bunch of het albinos/possible het something else.... I could breed her to a pastel, and produce some pastels het albino, but I've seen the albino pastels and I wasn't that impressed. Frankly it's taken me over 5 years to get to this point, and I think what I'd really like to see is a nice entire clutch of albinos... Will I have trouble with breeding siblings together? My previous experience with other species of snakes tells me that I probably won't have any problems at all, though I'll probably catch flack for it...

Mark

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I agree 100%! Strong posts today Mark ... I don't know about anyone else, but personally I'd enjoy seeing more like those around here! ;)

And for whatever it's worth, given what you've described ... my vote would be for the albino x albino pairing as well, a clutch of all albinos is a very beautiful thing! ;)

http://www.8ballpythons.com/uploads/albinos1.jpg

Keep us posted on what you decide to do and how it goes! :D

-adam

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Exactly right Adam. For instance, I've got a pair of albinos that I held back from my first albino clutch and the female might be big enough to breed this year. They are siblings that were produced by breeding a pair of hets together, so they are pretty well outbred themselves. Should I breed them together this year? I know I'll be breeding the male to a number of females, but should I also breed him to his sister?

I really don't have anything else that I would want to breed her to. I've got a bunch of het males but I can't see producing a bunch of het albinos/possible het something else.... I could breed her to a pastel, and produce some pastels het albino, but I've seen the albino pastels and I wasn't that impressed. Frankly it's taken me over 5 years to get to this point, and I think what I'd really like to see is a nice entire clutch of albinos... Will I have trouble with breeding siblings together? My previous experience with other species of snakes tells me that I probably won't have any problems at all, though I'll probably catch flack for it...

Mark

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Go for it!! You will never know without trying. Not to metion (like Adam said ) We need more full albino pics!!

I see no problem with your plan to breed them. Your het's would have been the F1 generation and breeding them would recover your recessive trait in the F2, this is how most breeders get recessive genes recovered when working with reptiles.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The reason breeders of any species don't breed albino x albino of different compatible lines has nothing to do with genetics.

-adam

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What is the reason then? Or is it just keeping the lines "clean"? (just having say one NERD line, one VPI line or something like that)

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Originally Posted by Schlyne

What is the reason then? Or is it just keeping the lines "clean"? (just having say one NERD line, one VPI line or something like that)

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1. They want to keep a certain line going...

2. Some may not be compatable. (axanthics for instant)

3. Who knows! LOL!


Just some possiblilitys.

most breeders with female morphs will do double-triple hets and combos and crosses with the female morphs!



vaughn

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Originally Posted by Schlyne

What is the reason then? Or is it just keeping the lines "clean"? (just having say one NERD line, one VPI line or something like that)

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Because female homozygous mutations are being used to create combinations .. for example, you can breed albino x albino and get 6 albinos at $1,500 a pop or you can breed a albino spider x albino and get 3 spider albinos and 3 albinos for even bigger bucks! I'll take door number 2 anyday! ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Mendel, I remember reading a post you made some time ago about how the reason why ball pythons have so many varying mutations is because there is a relatively high population in a concentrated geographic area. Given this, would they be more or less resilient to "genetic bottlenecking" than other species with more geographically dispersed populations?

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I dont remeber making the claim that the reason why there is so many varying mutations is because there is a relatively high population in a concentrated geographic region. I do remember reading it on this site before though....I think another user said that.....I think I just agreed with whoever that was.

And I still do agree with that person for two reasons....

First Large population size prevents genetic bottlenecks because a large population can have more variation in its gene pool than a small population.

2nd A large population concentrated in one region prevent subpopulations that inbreed (yes inbreeding does occur at times in nature) from occuring....this is one reason why landscape ecologists that work on the design of nature perserves often prefer one large area over several small areas that add up to the same size!