Did I miss something here?

I am still a little confused about this whole Morph King thing.. just how much lower is he selling morphs than the normal market values? See, this is a tough thing for me to just blindly follow after everyone's opinions; I want to know the facts before I make any kind of opinion here. I went to his site, and basically everything says Inquire, in regard to pricing. So anyone "in the know" about this: where are you getting your information from, and how much is the disparity in pricing? I am just too curious to pass this subject up.

You and I both, BTW your avatar looks just like one of my cats! I need to get pictures of them up here some day.

If you want to venture into the seamier side of things, check out the MKR thread on BOI. That will allow you to form your own opinion about these people. For me, the issue isn't so much the prices they are putting on their animals (although that is part of it and I'll mention why in a bit)....but the primary issue is the fact that they have NO REGARD for anyone else who cares about this industry/hobby/phenomenon...whatever you want to call it. One of their primary business goals is to drive EVERYone else OUT of business...especially if you look at them funny and make'em mad at you.


As far as pricing goes....I think people are going to charge what they believe the animals are worth...and people are going to pay what they are worth. I don't personally feel any need to dictate how others should be pricing. BUT...their whole business model is to drive the prices DOWN DOWN DOWN. So even folks who THINK they are getting a good deal today, may feel like they're being totally ripped off when in a few months from now, the very same animal is being priced at half of what they paid.

joepythons read the entire thread on BOI and this is what he has to say:

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Bpkid and Greenmonkey please do not take this personel,i understand how you feel you got a great deal from MKR.Later on when you raise up your snakes you purchased from MKR you will feel screwed over just like the rest who purchased from them.I guarentee the prices that MKR sells snakes at next season will be even lower then what you paid this year.This will make your future babies worth even less.If you are like myself i look forward to getting a fair price for my babies in order to purchase others that i am interested in.With MKR knocking down the fair market prices majority of the people with the same thoughts as myself may never see this happen .I would not be surprised if people refused to buy from someone that has MKR stock as there breeders.

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so it's not so much how much you pay today... it's the fact that tomorrow... you will pay less.
so when you buy a nice pied or pastel in the hopes of breeding them... once you grow them up, spend all the money on feeding and housing and finally get some babies to sell... they should be worth almost nothing.

mkr wants to be the only supplier of balls... they want everyone to just keep them as pets. period. no more breeding outside their monopoly.

to me... that just simply seems wrong. competition is good. it's healthy. and as someone very wise said to me once... buying a product from low end store is low end... period! if you want quality... you have to pay for it. so... what will mkr be selling to everyone in the future? low end - cause otherwise how will they afford to give proper feeding and housing to their breeders and still stay in business?

they'll need to give sub-standard care, feeding sub-standard prey items etc etc.

Hm.. I don't think I like the sound of this all. I was pretty surprised even at how low the price for pastels was in general; I got mine for $500 from the Sutherlands, and there was a day some years ago when they were in the 2k range that I thought "I'll never afford one." But now..
I don't think I could support/buy frrom MKR at this point, knowing this-all.

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Originally Posted by TheAudOne

You and I both, BTW your avatar looks just like one of my cats! I need to get pictures of them up here some day.

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Hehe; I know I just changed it to Cuesta, but that was Inky, our kitty. He is about 11 years old (or young) and we got him from the SPCA a few years ago at age 8. I love him to bits!

that's how i feel as well. i'd rather support someone like adam, who gives quality care and charges for quality animals.

i love paying for quality!

MKR has this thing called MKR TV over on reptileforums. Here's a link:
http://www.reptileforums.com/forums/...247#post244247

Watch it when you have about 20 minutes and about 30 IQ points to let go.

Ok, they say that they want to "give it back to the public" buy selling snakes for cheap. They also say that they want their customers to be able to sell snakes. In the next breath, they say that he will beat ANY price his customers try to sell snakes for.

WOW. Openly saying he'll undercut the people he's attempting to sell investment animals to.

This guy Joe yells into the camera like its a used car commercial. Oh wait, he sells used cars, amazing!

If these guys are the best in the business, as they claim, by watching this video, I'd feel really bad about this hobby. Luckily, he's full of crap and won't be around for long.

well he's saying they are making $30,000 a week from sales - and that they have sold $17,000 in thirteen weeks...

so which is it???

ah now i get the seafoam green shoes... MKR wears them in his infomercial LOL (and comments on them)

he wants to gross a million bucks in 20 days... he says he sold $165,000 in 4 days.

i'm confused with all these numbers... since none of them add up!

MKR is to breeders what Petco is to reptiles (a bad idea backed by a big bank roll). What will in the end bring an end to this. The big breeders will have enough and just stopp selling them the newest morphs then its up the creek. That and quality you don't price a BMW like a Pinto when it runs like a new BMW. You price the animal what its worth and thats what they do. Their quality is second rate to Bob Clark, NERD and Adams stuff people who care by quality people who don't but MKR and then end up off loading their animals on people who do. Just don't suport them AT ALL and you have done your part to help preserve our hobby and breeding projects.

i have read and reread your post and i just can't understand what you are saying???

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You price the animal what its worth and thats what they do. Their quality is second rate to Bob Clark, NERD and Adams stuff people who care by quality people who don't but MKR and then end up off loading their animals on people who do.

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who is they?

Well, my basic opinion is this: I choose to spend a little more daily, to shop at smaller, privately owned stores/shops, rather than support walmart. So.. in ten tears, after walmart has undercut all the stores and they're all gone.. no one can blame me, lol. I plan on doing the same thing with my morph buying.

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

i have read and reread your post and i just can't understand what you are saying???



who is they?

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Sorry MKR

It's quite interesting to watch their implosion on BOI. But anyway - here's how I look at it. I can get a funtioning pair of sneakers at Payless (I do by the way! LOL) or I can buy Reeboks. One is clearly better quality.


Now with animals, I want quality. I don't want the Payless snake (MKR - which ironically is a "pay less" snake! LOL) - I want the Reebok snake (Adam, NERD, Tim, Vaughn, Jamie and all the good regular breeders here - and no disrespect if I left your name off - it was not an intentional slight!) and I'm willing to pay more for that Reebok snake!

I'm just speculating - but it's sort of like dog breeders sell show quality and pet quality dogs, I may be way off base, but I would consider mass breeding for the sole purpose of hurting someone (as has been alleged on BOI about MKR) would produce a pet quality snake - but certainly not show quality that I would want to re-produce! And certainly the clowns currently for sale almost look like black back normals - they're definitely clowns, but not shining examples of them.

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I would not be surprised if people refused to buy from someone that has MKR stock as there breeders.

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Me either.

okay so then were you saying (fixed what i think may be typos)

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You price the animal what its worth and thats what MKR do. MKR's quality is second rate to Bob Clark, NERD and Adams stuff. People who care buy quality. People who don't care buy from MKR and then end up off loading their animals on people who do.

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is that what you were trying to say?

Wow....talk about video quality, I made a video about super mashed potatoes when I was 14, and it was better than this.

Seems a little shady to me.

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

okay so then were you saying (fixed what i think may be typos)



is that what you were trying to say?

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Bingo. Sorry typing in between phone calls and customers.. :taz:

I love it when Joe talks in the third person. I think that is the creepiest thing ever. I tried to watch that video, but it is so freaking boring I had to stop.

I thought he was trying to undercut VPI too? Why was he pushing their book?

I will not support MKR, at one point I thought "same kinda snake less money" but the more and more I read about it, and more and more I got serious about taking this hobby places the more I realized how shrewd what they're doing actually is. I think the people that will purchase from MKR will tend to be the people that aren't really into the hobby for the right reasons, the get rich quick people or people who aren't that educated about the market, and the effects you can have by buying from the right people.

With the quality of people that frequent this site, I would always bring my business here first. If our community gets large enough so would our miniature market, so to speak. Smart people would by from the bp.net python exchange and everyone else could buy their puppymill brand snakes.

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Originally Posted by Dougie

I love it when Joe talks in the third person. I think that is the creepiest thing ever. I tried to watch that video, but it is so freaking boring I had to stop.

I thought he was trying to undercut VPI too? Why was he pushing their book?

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The more people get excited about morphs the more he can sell.. Simple marketing. VPI pushs morphs in the book. So this lets MKR sell them cheaper than the maker of the book (VPI).

no MKR in my future

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

I think the people that will purchase from MKR will tend to be the people that aren't really into the hobby for the right reasons, the get rich quick people or people who aren't that educated about the market, and the effects you can have by buying from the right people.

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I found this comment VERY offensive. Not only do I love this hobby, I KNOW I am not going to make half of the money I put into the snakes and racks, and thermostats, etc.

I choose to buy from MKR next year because I have talked to Joe and he is a great guy and I KNOW MKR produces alot of quality animals. Whoever says their customer service sucks probably hasn't called them yet. I called, with no answer, but got a call back in a few seconds! I talked to Joe for an overall 3 hours AT LEAST about the hobby and the market, and at least an hour overall about payment plans and if they will have what I am interested in.

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Originally Posted by bpkid

I found this comment VERY offensive. Not only do I love this hobby, I KNOW I am not going to make half of the money I put into the snakes and racks, and thermostats, etc.

I choose to buy from MKR next year because I have talked to Joe and he is a great guy and I KNOW MKR produces alot of quality animals. Whoever says their customer service sucks probably hasn't called them yet. I called, with no answer, but got a call back in a few seconds! I talked to Joe for an overall 3 hours AT LEAST about the hobby and the market, and at least an hour overall about payment plans and if they will have what I am interested in.

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I agree 100%


-Andre

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Originally Posted by bpkid

I found this comment VERY offensive. Not only do I love this hobby, I KNOW I am not going to make half of the money I put into the snakes and racks, and thermostats, etc.

I choose to buy from MKR next year because I have talked to Joe and he is a great guy and I KNOW MKR produces alot of quality animals. Whoever says their customer service sucks probably hasn't called them yet. I called, with no answer, but got a call back in a few seconds! I talked to Joe for an overall 3 hours AT LEAST about the hobby and the market, and at least an hour overall about payment plans and if they will have what I am interested in.

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You know....I have not made any comments about their customer service...because I've never been a customer of theirs and never experienced it. I have NO DOUBT that you and virtually everyone else that deals with them gets service that appears excellent on the surface. That's what salespeople do....they SELL. They'll tell you anything you want to hear...be your best friend....talk for as long as they need to in order to make that sale. That's GREAT customer service. :rolleyes:

What bothers me so much about MKR is that the very guy who says "I'll make you a GREAT deal on your favorite morph" is the very same guy who turns his back on you and says "I'll never let you sell your morph because my prices will ALWAYS be lower than yours."

Try calling Joe sometime and saying, "I'm really not in the market for a snake right now and have no money, but the snake I already have is worrying me and I was wondering if you could help me take care of it?" I wonder how fast your call would be returned then? Or how long they'd spend on the phone with you?

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Originally Posted by JLC

You know....I have not made any comments about their customer service...because I've never been a customer of theirs and never experienced it. I have NO DOUBT that you and virtually everyone else that deals with them gets service that appears excellent on the surface. That's what salespeople do....they SELL. They'll tell you anything you want to hear...be your best friend....talk for as long as they need to in order to make that sale. That's GREAT customer service. :rolleyes:

What bothers me so much about MKR is that the very guy who says "I'll make you a GREAT deal on your favorite morph" is the very same guy who turns his back on you and says "I'll never let you sell your morph because my prices will ALWAYS be lower than yours."

Try calling Joe sometime and saying, "I'm really not in the market for a snake right now and have no money, but the snake I already have is worrying me and I was wondering if you could help me take care of it?" I wonder how fast your call would be returned then? Or how long they'd spend on the phone with you?

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You beat me to it!

Bpkid and Andre, wake up and smell the burning coffee. Joe "I wish I was Al" Capone doesn't give a rats ass about you, your snakes or your future. Always keep in mind that if you roll around in the pig pen, you are going to come out smelling like crap. Morph King is a boil on the ass of this industry and its disappointing to see people like you two buying into his gimmick.

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Originally Posted by JLC

You know....I have not made any comments about their customer service...because I've never been a customer of theirs and never experienced it. I have NO DOUBT that you and virtually everyone else that deals with them gets service that appears excellent on the surface. That's what salespeople do....they SELL. They'll tell you anything you want to hear...be your best friend....talk for as long as they need to in order to make that sale. That's GREAT customer service. :rolleyes:

What bothers me so much about MKR is that the very guy who says "I'll make you a GREAT deal on your favorite morph" is the very same guy who turns his back on you and says "I'll never let you sell your morph because my prices will ALWAYS be lower than yours."

Try calling Joe sometime and saying, "I'm really not in the market for a snake right now and have no money, but the snake I already have is worrying me and I was wondering if you could help me take care of it?" I wonder how fast your call would be returned then? Or how long they'd spend on the phone with you?

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actually to tell you the truth, Wes has answered a few husbandry questions of mine ;)

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Originally Posted by bpkid

actually to tell you the truth, Wes has answered a few husbandry questions of mine ;)

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I don't doubt it. Because he knows he can sell you snakes.

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Originally Posted by bpkid

actually to tell you the truth, Wes has answered a few husbandry questions of mine ;)

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Because he thinks he is going to get a sale from you.

While there is NOTHING wrong with being a business and wanting to make money, I feel that JOE will cause problems.

Have you guys not seen his video? where he talks about how much money he has made?

bpkid...yes Wes can answer your questions, I don't doubt that. Wes has been at this for a long time. Joe, however, openly admits in his video that he has ony been into this since 2001.

Have you not seen the part where Joe openly admits "price your co-doms where ever you want, i'll be there to pricem right under ya"?

He mentions, at least 15 times, how he is an ex-CAR SALESMAN. you were sold. Customer service is great, no doubt about that. Noone is denying that.

Have you not read his threads where he puts threats towards people to put the "middle man" out of business?

Newsflash: Joe is a middle man. Wes has the snakes!

It doesn't matter a lick how much money they've brought in. Their reputation in the hobby is forever tainted by all this schmoozing and lowballing, in my humble opinion. I seriously would like to know the opinions of well-known breeders, on this whole thing.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

It doesn't matter a lick how much money they've brought in. Their reputation in the hobby is forever tainted by all this schmoozing and lowballing, in my humble opinion. I seriously would like to know the opinions of well-known breeders, on this whole thing.

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I do too...I think they make the wise decision to stay out of debates like this. I try to but some times i get fired up enough to make a post

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Originally Posted by bpkid

I found this comment VERY offensive. Not only do I love this hobby, I KNOW I am not going to make half of the money I put into the snakes and racks, and thermostats, etc.

I choose to buy from MKR next year because I have talked to Joe and he is a great guy and I KNOW MKR produces alot of quality animals. Whoever says their customer service sucks probably hasn't called them yet. I called, with no answer, but got a call back in a few seconds! I talked to Joe for an overall 3 hours AT LEAST about the hobby and the market, and at least an hour overall about payment plans and if they will have what I am interested in.

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A few years ago I weighed about 260 lbs. I used to get really offended when people would make comments about my weight. But the fact remained I was fat.

I find this to be true of most circumstances. That which is true tends to hit us the hardest, especially when it's entirely the individuals fault. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is buying from MKR because of their service. The fact that their stated goal is to put people like you and everyone else here out of business, should give a clear indication of how good their service is.

You and everyone else that is buying from MKR are buying because it's cheap. I will respect anyone that buys from them, as long as their willing to admit their reasons for it. This industry is chalk full of respectable people. On this very forum we have Adam, Vaughn, N.E.R.D., evan and several other known breeders that have a long history of excellent service to their customers. Many people have assisted me without me even being a customer. The only separation between the folks I've mentioned and MKR, is that MKR is selling a full 50% below the retail market and at 10% of the retail prices from a year before.

As for the situation as a whole? As much as Joe likes to claim he's the biggest out there, both Bob and Mike are breeding at least twice what Joe is. And as for his goal of putting everyone else out of business... do you honestly think it's going to happen? Microsoft and Walmart have been unable to do that... so why believe some car salesman has either the means or the know-how to accomplish something two of the largest companies in the world can't?

Remember, there are litterally hundreds if not thousands of combinations for ball pythons. MKR will NEVER be able to keep their supply up to meet the demand. To be honest, I don't think MKR will be in business by the time we are all voting for the next President (well... for those of us in the US).

The target buyer of a ball python is typically someone that wants to breed them. Those that are going to be purchasing from Joe obviously don't have the business sense to realize that he is going to be cost-cutting them as well. That pretty much signifies Joe is only going to be able to target people that are just like him, and we've been seeing that for YEARS. I mean, take a look at King Snake, or Fauna... people are driving down prices there ALL THE TIME, yet breeders as small as Adam and as big as NERD are managing to keep their prices relatively stable. And last I checked, Adam is selling off his snakes like canned food in a hurricane.

Everyone just needs to relax. The heat will die down, and I'm willing to bet that the Mojave and Spider market will probably hold once the fear has passed. This market requires patience... and I'm willing to wait it out until the car salesman finds someone new to screw over. :)

Marketing 101:

Ok you lower the price on every morph that comes out and customer that wants one buys one. You sell out and now person that wanted whatever morph has one who is there left to sell to? So next year its the next morph same story. Pretty soon the only thing you can sale is the newest hottest morph out why your target customer base has filled their need/want for everything you offerd in the previous years and doesnt wish to buy anything but the newest/hottest so in say 10 years you have limited your customer base to one maybe a max of 4 new morphs year. And at the price he pays for them and the rate at pythons breed MKR will be paying more for the breeding pairs than they can make back.

Ok now time to put it to numbers say MKR bought 10 lesser Platties at the market price of 50,000.00 each snake 4 years ago rasied them and breed them all to produce snakes this year. At the price he was charging of say 1200.00 a peice for a lesser he would have to sale 417 snake just to make his money back. Now there is no way a 3 year old female can lay ten eggs but lets say she can. Remeber MKR bought 10 snake 5 male and 5 female thats only 50 eggs at 1200.00 each thats still only $60,000 he is loosing money. Next year he has to buy the newest morph out at a huge rate to breed in the next three to four years.. See.. you give him enough rope and he'll hang HIMSELF.. My advice if you don't like they way he does business. BUY 8BALL!!!!

jhall - very very VERY well said!

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

A few years ago I weighed about 260 lbs. I used to get really offended when people would make comments about my weight. But the fact remained I was fat.

I find this to be true of most circumstances. That which is true tends to hit us the hardest, especially when it's entirely the individuals fault. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is buying from MKR because of their service. The fact that their stated goal is to put people like you and everyone else here out of business, should give a clear indication of how good their service is.

You and everyone else that is buying from MKR are buying because it's cheap. I will respect anyone that buys from them, as long as their willing to admit their reasons for it. This industry is chalk full of respectable people. On this very forum we have Adam, Vaughn, N.E.R.D., evan and several other known breeders that have a long history of excellent service to their customers. Many people have assisted me without me even being a customer. The only separation between the folks I've mentioned and MKR, is that MKR is selling a full 50% below the retail market and at 10% of the retail prices from a year before.

As for the situation as a whole? As much as Joe likes to claim he's the biggest out there, both Bob and Mike are breeding at least twice what Joe is. And as for his goal of putting everyone else out of business... do you honestly think it's going to happen? Microsoft and Walmart have been unable to do that... so why believe some car salesman has either the means or the know-how to accomplish something two of the largest companies in the world can't?

Remember, there are litterally hundreds if not thousands of combinations for ball pythons. MKR will NEVER be able to keep their supply up to meet the demand. To be honest, I don't think MKR will be in business by the time we are all voting for the next President (well... for those of us in the US).

The target buyer of a ball python is typically someone that wants to breed them. Those that are going to be purchasing from Joe obviously don't have the business sense to realize that he is going to be cost-cutting them as well. That pretty much signifies Joe is only going to be able to target people that are just like him, and we've been seeing that for YEARS. I mean, take a look at King Snake, or Fauna... people are driving down prices there ALL THE TIME, yet breeders as small as Adam and as big as NERD are managing to keep their prices relatively stable. And last I checked, Adam is selling off his snakes like canned food in a hurricane.

Everyone just needs to relax. The heat will die down, and I'm willing to bet that the Mojave and Spider market will probably hold once the fear has passed. This market requires patience... and I'm willing to wait it out until the car salesman finds someone new to screw over. :)

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Your post gave me some comfort; I only hope that you're right. I hope this does not kill our hobby; it seriously and literally frightens me.

Wow JHall! Excellent post!

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

Your post gave me some comfort; I only hope that you're right. I hope this does not kill our hobby; it seriously and literally frightens me.

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You and a lot of others. But it's fairly fitting that Joe was a car salesman. He thinks like a car salesman. He sees a short term cash cow, but apparently failed basic math (as our resident amphibian pointed out) because in long-term he is going to be cash-flow negative. You buy a bag of flour for $10 and sell it for $5, you're going to sell a LOT of flour, but you sure as heck aren't going to make any money from it.

I think most of this fear is derived from MKR being so "big." But talking like Walmart doesn't make you CEO. Joe market dumped 50 Mojave's... big deal. By the time the breeding season is in full force go to King Snake and count how many Spiders, Mojave's, Pastels and other morphs are being sold at 50% below retail. Sure it's not all from one guy, but I bet it's more than 50.

Do what you love and the money will follow... and even if it doesn't. Snakes are too damn cool to care :).

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Do what you love and the money will follow... and even if it doesn't. Snakes are too damn cool to care :).

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oh ya baby!!!!!

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Originally Posted by bpkid

I found this comment VERY offensive. Not only do I love this hobby, I KNOW I am not going to make half of the money I put into the snakes and racks, and thermostats, etc.

I choose to buy from MKR next year because I have talked to Joe and he is a great guy and I KNOW MKR produces alot of quality animals. Whoever says their customer service sucks probably hasn't called them yet. I called, with no answer, but got a call back in a few seconds! I talked to Joe for an overall 3 hours AT LEAST about the hobby and the market, and at least an hour overall about payment plans and if they will have what I am interested in.

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Sorry you found this offensive, but its what I believe, and if this bothers you all I have left to say...If the shoe fits wear it. Its my opinion, you don't have to agree with it.