do ball pythons dig/burrow.

yes, yesterday i noticed a what looks like a burrow near my snake's water bowl. this tends to be the cooler side of the cage. also i use an substrate that is called jungle mix that is intended for egg incubation,breeding,nesting,and burrowing. what promoted this beginning behavior.

to my experience, i would say no but then again bp's are supposed to be trestrial but mine love climbing in his big plant and the felxable stick, so i wouldn't count it out.

no, ball pythons don't burrow. they dont burrow like say a monitor lizard or burrowing rodent.

what your snake did was he pushed into the substrate and the substrate your using happens to be able to hold a little once he's slthered threw it. in the wild he would have probably done the same thing but in dirt so all you would see is dirt thats been moved.

anyine want to explain this behaviour? ive wondered what this is to. anyone that has any theories care to discuss? possibly its the snake trying to remove stuck shed or something? i know they aren't burrowing for shelter or anything.

I have one that makes tunnels thru the substrate and lies there with only it's noise pointing out. Excatly like what a dumerils boa does.
This one is odd though. None of the others have ever done anything like what this one does.

does he have less or bigger hides compared to the other ones?

From a ball python website.


http://www.blackpineanimalpark.com/A...all_python.htm

"Ball pythons love to burrow, and are usually found curled up tight, hiding away."

From another one.

http://www.petstation.com/ballpyth.htm

"Since they burrow in the wild,"

And yet another one.

http://www.paradisepets.co.za/rep_ca...ython_care.htm

Habits:

Like many of the pythons, these are rather sedentary snakes. They hole up in burrows during the day-sometimes many in the same burrow-and emerge at night to hunt.

So yes, Ball Pythons DO burrow and I have witnessed mine trying to burrow outside in grass, and on my bed, he'll use the sheets to make a burrow.

In the wild, ball pythons LIVE IN burrows...but that does not make them burrow-diggers. They will move into rodent burrows or termite mounds. I don't think they are phsyically equipped to actually dig through dirt to create a burrow. They may, however, enjoy slithering through the groundcover to wriggle under it...or maybe they poke at the ground to look for burrow openings. I don't know. But I'm about 99.9% sure they don't actually dig burrows themselves.

yes Brian, they do utilize burrows but they do not dig burrows themselves. they use rodent burrows. unless you can explain to me how a ball pythons is going to dig its way into the hard earth and actually TUNNEL with its soft scaley nose im holding firm that they do not.

I've seen Loki dig a few times....usually when i put him back in the tank, he'll wander around a bit before slithering around his water dish. Then he just starts "digging" under the substrate. It's more than just nosing it around, he goes all the way down to the glass, he'll even hang out there for a few minutes, then he

goes into his hide, or on top of it, depending on his mood. :cool:

Show me evidence that they don't burrow and maybe I'll believe it! :P

I think the need for evidence is on the shoulders of those saying they do burrow. After all, you can't argue with a picture or video of one burrowing into the ground but it doesn't prove anything to show a picture of a bp NOT burrowing into the ground lol. Honestly, I've never seen anything in any of my sources (which I researched carefully) about them burrowing but it does usually mention something about them living in rodent burrows.

I already listed 3 sites that say they burrow, so the evidence is pretty concrete that they do burrow, what I'm waiting for is some truth that they DON'T burrow. Please someone show me this with a link or something so that I can be proven wrong... ;) :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MontyNSpike

I already listed 3 sites that say they burrow, so the evidence is pretty concrete that they do burrow, what I'm waiting for is some truth that they DON'T burrow. Please someone show me this with a link or something so that I can be proven wrong... ;) :P

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I could also show you websites that say you should feed ball pythons crickets ... get a clue.

As for ball pythons burrowing ... There isn’t a biologist on the planet that would classify p. regius as a "burrowing" species ... In their native West Africa they are often found in abandoned tortise burrows (many tortises are known as burrowing species) and old rodent burrows (again, many rodents are known to "burrow").

As an animal that is not at the top of the food chain, their instinct forces them to constantly seek out the smallest, tightest hiding spot that they can find to prevent their natural predators from being able to get a claw, tooth, or beak on any part of their body. When placed in a cage with hides that are not secure enough for them, they are certainly capable of moving the bedding around to "hide themselves" and feel safe. I am sure that this is a natural behavior that they have developed over time to make the slightly adequate "abandoned burrows" that they use in the wild more suitable for their needs. Also, I would imagine that a ball python in a cage with a nice thick layer of loose bedding might enjoy the sensation of crawling through it. These actions do not make them a burrowing species.

FWIW, when a gaboon viper hides itself under a layer of leaf litter on a forest floor in order to ambush a meal, it is not a "burrower" either, but someone that wanted to be a pain in the ace or just didn’t know a whole lot about gaboon vipers could easily twist a description of the event around and argue that they are “burrowing”.

I'll put my 25+ years of experience with ball pythons and the dozens of conversations that I've had with people that have actually been to West Africa and worked with/observed them in their natural habitat up against any one of those care sheets .... any day.

-adam

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Please someone show me this with a link or something so that I can be proven wrong...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I could also show you websites that say you should feed ball pythons crickets ... get a clue.

As for ball pythons burrowing ... There isn’t a biologist on the planet that would classify p. regius as a "burrowing" species ... In their native West Africa they are often found in abandoned tortise burrows (many tortises are known as burrowing species) and old rodent burrows (again, many rodents are known to "burrow").

As an animal that is not at the top of the food chain, their instinct forces them to constantly seek out the smallest, tightest hiding spot that they can find to prevent their natural predators from being able to get a claw, tooth, or beak on any part of their body. When placed in a cage with hides that are not secure enough for them, they are certainly capable of moving the bedding around to "hide themselves" and feel safe. I am sure that this is a natural behavior that they have developed over time to make the slightly adequate "abandoned burrows" that they use in the wild more suitable for their needs. Also, I would imagine that a ball python in a cage with a nice thick layer of loose bedding might enjoy the sensation of crawling through it. These actions do not make them a burrowing species.

FWIW, when a gaboon viper hides itself under a layer of leaf litter on a forest floor in order to ambush a meal, it is not a "burrower" either, but someone that wanted to be a pain in the ace or just didn’t know a whole lot about gaboon vipers could easily twist a description of the event around and argue that they are “burrowing”.

I'll put my 25+ years of experience with ball pythons and the dozens of conversations that I've had with people that have actually been to West Africa and worked with/observed them in their natural habitat up against any one of those care sheets .... any day.

-adam

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But Adam......you didn't provide a link! :bolt:

Allow me

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...6&postcount=13

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

Allow me

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...6&postcount=13

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I bow down before your Googling skillzzz! :bow: :bow:

:P :P :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

Allow me

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...6&postcount=13

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Now THAT was funny!

I couldn't help myself above - feeling a little punchy with long hours at work during inventory! LOL

let me lighten up the mood with a real burrowing animal.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1...s/100_0201.jpg
ok, so i just needed to show off my ackie, lol, but this is a real burrow and burrowing animal. a ball python puching dirt with its nose is in no way tunneling or burrowing.

Whoa is that a Savannah?

nope, red ridge-tail monitor, varanus acanthurus acanthurus.

My BP always digs under his water dish and creates a big enoungh space for him to coil under it. I use coconut bark as a substrate though, which might be different than others.

the snake hiding underneath the waterbowl *COULD* be a sign of non-suffficient hides. are your hides tight fitting, and do you have one on each temperature gradient?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OSU_Snake keeper

My BP always digs under his water dish and creates a big enoungh space for him to coil under it. I use coconut bark as a substrate though, which might be different than others.

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Yes...there's just a huge difference between pushing some lose substrate out from under an object, and digging tunnels in hard-packed earth. In the wild, it would be the equivelant of pushing through some leaf-litter and dried grass to get under an old log or something. That's not "digging a burrow."

snakes lack the proper tools for burrowing, such as shovels, wheelbarrel, pick ax, etc etc. JK!!


~mike

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

snakes lack the proper tools for burrowing, such as shovels, wheelbarrel, pick ax, etc etc. JK!!

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in a sense you're right. snakes dont have claws or paws, etc.(=tools) to make a burrow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr~python

the snake hiding underneath the waterbowl *COULD* be a sign of non-suffficient hides. are your hides tight fitting, and do you have one on each temperature gradient?

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Yeah I should add another one, but I'll have to get a bigger habitat first to fit one in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr~python

in a sense you're right. snakes dont have claws or paws, etc.(=tools) to make a burrow.

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thats what i was hinting at, but wanted people to figure it out by themseleves. I wanted people to have an appifany!

~mike

When mine was yuonger and I used like 3inches of bedding then... he would make himself go under the bedding. So cute:P But then I believe he wasnt warm enough because the bedding was 3inches thick. So now its only 1inch thick and well he still pushes out bedding and tries to get as close to the UTH as possible (at night):D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I could also show you websites that say you should feed ball pythons crickets ... get a clue.



-adam

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Why are you always such an ass to me? Did I offend you in some way?
Show me this care sheet that says feed ball python's crickets! And, show me evidence that ball pythons DON'T burrow, again, how hard can it be? It took me 2 min. to find sites that say ball python's burrow. The only one against it is your comment that they don't. :rolleyes: So why don't you get a clue, and show me the sites that say they don't burrow any MAYBE I'll believe you. You may have 25 + years experience with ball pyhons, but that doesn't mean that I don't know what I am talking about... :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MontyNSpike

Why are you always such an ass to me? Did I offend you in some way?
Show me this care sheet that says feed ball python's crickets! And, show me evidence that ball pythons DON'T burrow, again, how hard can it be? It took me 2 min. to find sites that say ball python's burrow. The only one against it is your comment that they don't. :rolleyes: So why don't you get a clue, and show me the sites that say they don't burrow any MAYBE I'll believe you. You may have 25 + years experience with ball pyhons, but that doesn't mean that I don't know what I am talking about... :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

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No one is trying to be an ass to you......everything is up to interpetation on online forums.....I could take some of your posts as being rude if I really looked into it.....No worries.....don't take things so personal.... :) :)

What Adam was refering to was the lack of credibility of any of the sites you listed......do you know where those sites got their information?...If not, from an academic point of view....they are worthless sources.... how do you know that these people are giving you the proper information?... Adam did a good job of establishing his credibility then posted his observations and thoughts....that makes him a much better source.

Instead of showing some random website that suggests that ball pythons burrow, find a scientific journal article or documented field observation. I have several on my computer at home that I will read through again when I get home just to see what they have to say on this issues.......then I will post the name of the article here so you can hunt it down ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MontyNSpike

Why are you always such an ass to me? Did I offend you in some way?
Show me this care sheet that says feed ball python's crickets! And, show me evidence that ball pythons DON'T burrow, again, how hard can it be? It took me 2 min. to find sites that say ball python's burrow. The only one against it is your comment that they don't. :rolleyes: So why don't you get a clue, and show me the sites that say they don't burrow any MAYBE I'll believe you. You may have 25 + years experience with ball pyhons, but that doesn't mean that I don't know what I am talking about... :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

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Calm down skippy ... my mistake, you're obviously an expert and I know nothing.

ROCK ON! :carrot:

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MontyNSpike

You may have 25 + years experience with ball pyhons, but that doesn't mean that I don't know what I am talking about...

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Sorry, but given the choice between trusting the advice of someone with 25+ years of Ball experience and hundreds of Balls or someone with one Ball named Monty and the ability to type "Burrowing Balls" in google... I'm going to have to pick door #1. :2cent:

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=2


This link, specifically page 15 explains their use of burrows. Also has other good info. Their is also a video documentary of this study available on the net. Poor video/audio quality but it was interesting to watch...

MontyNSpike, why don't you show us evidence they do burrow? After all, you have google.video don't you? If they do indeed burrow, it is very likely that someone has filmed it. Also, tell me what natural tools a bp could realisticly burrow with without it taking an age.

MontyNSpike doesn't need to come up with any so called "evidence" because there simply isn't any. Nothing short of a scientific, peer-reviewed, published article in a legitimate biology journal on a new study concerning the "burrowing" behavior of ball pythons in the wild will support his arguement. A website from some random "scientist is NOT a reliable source. The observations he is making may be legitimate, but they do not come close to providing sufficient evidence to overcome scientific classification.

Video, pictures, sketches, WHATEVER, it doesn't matter. You guys are totally ignorant to the fact that whether or not an animal is a "burrowing" animal is classified as such comes from studies done by reputable sources over many many years of study- and not some idiot observing his ball python dig underneath his waterbowl.

[SACRASM] No, I am the one that knows nothing because I only have one Ball Python and his name is Monty. So freakin what! Because I only have one ball python limits my ability to have any more knowledge about them? I'm sorry that I voiced my opinions and several people saw it as wrong and critizied me with their years of experience and millions of ball pythons that they breed and look after and sell and all that good stuff. [/SARCASM] Now seriously, the sites that I looked up after yahooing I thought were credible because they are/were supposed to be written by people that have some knowledge about the subject they are writing about. I still haven't seen any evidence that they don't burrow, I just see people telling me to prove to them that they do burrow and I keep asking evidence that they don't! And I still want to see this care sheet that says to feed ball pythons crickets, that sounds like an interesting read. I hope to continue this discussion later as I must depart for class. Until then, I'm sorry if I caused any problems with people, that was not my intention.

Brian, the problem is that you came on this thread stating that we shouldn't question your knowledge about Balls and that you may know more than people that have years of experience keeping hundreds of these critters.

You back up this claim by producing three links that supposedly state Ball Pythons burrow. However, if you just took the time to read the entire pages on those links you would notice that they are not very credible or they don't support your claim at all. If you notice the first link, it mentions that Ball Python eggs take 75-80 days to incubate and that they received their common name because of the way they curl up tight and hide away in their burrows, when actually they received this name because of the way they ball up as a defense mechanism.

The second link states that you can turn off your basking light at night and the temps could drop down to 68F. :rolleyes:

Finally, the last link simply stated that they "hole up in burrows" but doesn't mention anything about them actually digging the burrows themselves.

A legitimate link has already been provided stating that "Royal pythons were found in rat burrows and termite mounds.", however that, in addition to the people on this site with much more experience than you or I, does not seem sufficient enough to convince you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MontyNSpike

I still haven't seen any evidence that they don't burrow.

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Did you take the time to read the Ball Python Field Study by Gorzula, Nsiah, and Oduro posted by sho220 above or are you just running your jimmie holster because you like the sound of your own voice? It provides just as much if not more evidence that ball pythons don't burrow (but do take advantage of the abondoned burrows of other animals) than the "care sheets" that you posted. Not to mention it was an actual study of these animals in the wild written by three very capable PHds with backgrounds in biology. I would think that most logical minds would conclude that an official field study conducted by professional biologists with advanced degrees trounces a care sheet posted on "petstation.com" every single day of the week.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MontyNSpike

I keep asking evidence that they don't

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Well, since you like to call links to information posted on internet websites "evidence", you have the field study above and here's a second link to an article on a semi popular ball breeders website specifically discussing ball pythons and burrowing ...

http://www.8ballpythons.com/journal/...sburrowing.htm

That should be all the evidence you need. ;)

-adam

How about some head shots of snake species that ARE known burrowers - then look for some common traits (face it their faces are all they have to dig with) - compare to BP's . . . unscientific yes, sure and granted - but a burrowing snake should have the physiological tools to get the job done you'd think . . .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

http://www.8ballpythons.com/journal/...sburrowing.htm

That should be all the evidence you need. ;)

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:8:

Can I plagiarize that, or do you want credit? :sweeet:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Can I plagiarize that, or do you want credit? :sweeet:

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Either way Papi ... don't make me no difference. ;)

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Well, since you like to call links to information posted on internet websites "evidence", you have the field study above and here's a second link to an article on a semi popular ball breeders website specifically discussing ball pythons and burrowing ...

http://www.8ballpythons.com/journal/...sburrowing.htm

That should be all the evidence you need. ;)

-adam

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I've heard of this breeder somewhere, and I think I may have run into him at the Daytona Reptile Breeders Expo - quite an interesting read! :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Well, since you like to call links to information posted on internet websites "evidence", you have the field study above and here's a second link to an article on a semi popular ball breeders website specifically discussing ball pythons and burrowing ...

http://www.8ballpythons.com/journal/...sburrowing.htm

That should be all the evidence you need. ;)

-adam

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hahahaha............hahahaha Ha

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=2


This link, specifically page 15 explains their use of burrows. Also has other good info. Their is also a video documentary of this study available on the net. Poor video/audio quality but it was interesting to watch...

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Thanks for this link.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Well, since you like to call links to information posted on internet websites "evidence", you have the field study above and here's a second link to an article on a semi popular ball breeders website specifically discussing ball pythons and burrowing ...

http://www.8ballpythons.com/journal/...sburrowing.htm

That should be all the evidence you need. ;)

-adam

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LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:8:

~mike

I had to type this in from a book so excuse the inevitable spelling errors:



"Snakes are somewhat predisposed to tunneling by virtue of their small girth, and they probably owe their elongation and limb loss to an initially fossorial existence. Although many rather typical-looking serpents are secretive and live beneath surface litter, true burrowers usually have modifications that decrease friction and allow them to penetrate compacted soil. Specialized fossorial snakes often possess a buttressed skull to resist and absorb the forces of tunneling; fused head and body scales (as few as thirteen dorsal rows in reedsnakes [Calamaria]) to minimize friction; and a short tail, often tipped by one or more spines and used as a lever for pushing off. madagascan hog-nosed snakes (Leioheterodon), Shield-nosed Cobras (Aspidelaps scutatus), and other species with modified rostral scales use their snouts to open and enlarge tunnels, then scoop put soil in a loop created by retracting the neck laterally. Fossorial serpents are typically less than 30cm long although the Mole Snakes (Pseudaspis cana), Eastern Pinesnakes (Pituophis melanoleucus), and a few others exceed 2m."

Harry W Green
"Snakes: The Evolution of Mystery In Nature"
1997


That's the best I could do at this time.

i would also like to say only 3 of the links you posted *kinda* stated they burrow. the last one said they use burrows. didnt say anything about them making their own.

if those rinky dink sites are concrete proof then i dont want to know concrete facts.

Last time I checked, I couldn't hear words that are typed on a website forum, so no, I don't like listening to the sound of my own voice, because on here, it can't be done. I can only see the words not hear them because I am not a ball python breeder like you who has an exponential amount of knowledge at his fingertips and brain cells. Another fact I know is that there is human error and opinons, which may or may not be correct, but I have a right to them just like everyone else. That being said, I'm going to agree to disagree with you Adam and others that just like to flame me for the hell of it, taking my words out of context and such and pretty much tearing me a new one. I know that one of the mods said that I shouldn't take it too personally, but how am I supposed to take it? Can an expert on this tell me? Thanks, until then, I gotta go feed my ball python some crickets and count down the days until he gives birth to a 2 headed jaguar checkered bald spider morph. Thank you very much!

Brian, I really don't think anyone is picking on you. They're just confounded that you are so stubbornly hanging onto the idea that you're right about BP's digging their own burrows. It defies understanding and therefore people will tend to get silly since they can't seem to make any headway with logic.

Alright, ball pythons don't burrow everyone happy now?