Rock-hard Urates?

My three-year old male has been feeding consistantly on p/k small rats weekly (except when shedding), with the occasional mouse when the store is out of rats. He had a four month fast last winter when I first got him, but I finally got him to eat in March of this year, and he has not missed a meal since. He's in an approriately sized tub, all his numbers are good, nothing's changed.

On Monday he refused his rat. Normally, he has it all wrapped up before I even get the lid back on, but this time he just poked his head out of his hide, inspected it briefly, and went back in.

On Wednesday, he passed a big hard nugget of urates(presumably). It looked a white rock, or a small hen's egg. It was probably slightly wider than his body at the vent. I can palpate another slightly smaller hard oblong mass about an inch cranial to his vent. This object does not show up on x-rays (I work at a dog & cat vet, so I took some yesterday out of curiosity and because snakes look so freaking cool on x-rays).

He is otherwise alert, active, inquisitive, etc. His normal self, except for the refusing food thing.

Is this something I should have him seen by a herp vet for, or does it happen from time to time? His previous urates have been soft, as have my other babies'.

I know when any of my guys & gal kind of look a bit plump in that area and it's been a little longer then I like - I let them take a swim in the bathtub or in our basement sink. Normally they will let loose after a few minutes.

Can you show us a pic of it

A urate freeesh from a snake, I've found, it the consistancy of thick sour cream, but if left for a while (couple hours or more, or you don't notice it right away), it dries pretty much rock hard.

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Originally Posted by cassandra

A urate freeesh from a snake, I've found, it the consistancy of thick sour cream, .

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Well I was craving nachos but now I think ckicken sandwitch

Sorry Frog, I wasn't thinking and I threw it away.

Cassandra...I can't say for sure how long it had sat, but not more than an hour or two...I had checked on him earlier and then happened to see it later that morning.
It was not shaped like urates that come out soft and then conform to the ground they land on....it was a smooth hard oblong like an egg or a river rock. It very much reminded me of uroliths I've seen removed from dogs.

And I can feel another one in him...so that negates the "hardening after it comes out" theory. A pity, because I'd much rather that be the case.

I'll try the soaking idea, and see what comes out.

Dumb qustion your sure it a him ???

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Dumb qustion your sure it a him ???

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I don't think that's the a dumb question...and how old/how much does the snake weigh?

Do you know if s/he's ever been housed with another snake?

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Originally Posted by cassandra

I don't think that's the a dumb question...and how old/how much does the snake weigh?

Do you know if s/he's ever been housed with another snake?

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See your thinking the same thing.... Slugs (unfertilized eggs normaly produced in an underweight or young female after a botched breeding atempt. they can also acompany a vialble cluch)

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Originally Posted by cassandra

I don't think that's the a dumb question...and how old/how much does the snake weigh?

Do you know if s/he's ever been housed with another snake?

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Hehe...I would be so psyched if "he" was a "she".

However....I purchased him from Bob Clark one year ago, as a two year old CBB male for a pet. At the time, he was housed alone, and has been since I've had him. He's around 1200g right now.

The color/consistencey sounds normal to me...the urates can dry out and harden just as any other poo can.

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Originally Posted by TekWarren

The color/consistencey sounds normal to me...the urates can dry out and harden just as any other poo can.

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Except that it was hard -before- it came out.

Possibly dehydration?? ive seen dehydrated animals that have very hard feces, assumming because the body continues to draw as much water as possible from the feces.


~mike

Sorry I skimmed over that. If it was coming out hard already definately have the snake checked.

For others: Does anyone know if there was a blockage/impaction that may have naturally moved on its own causing it to be "hard" on exit?

Is the whiteish urate chalky to the touch? (sounds gross but after a while a little poo on your hands doesn't mean much). It just seems odd that the urate would be that hard and dry on exit.

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

Possibly dehydration?? ive seen dehydrated animals that have very hard feces, assumming because the body continues to draw as much water as possible from the feces.


~mike

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I was thinking this also but it would seem like the animal would have to be pretty dehydrated (physically looking unhealthy) for a urate like that? I guess I've never see a urate come out purely solid.

Is urates a by product of the kidneys or bowels.

It could be a organ not working properly like getting kidney stones or galstones, Couldn't it

It sounds weird enough that a trip to a good herp vet would be what I would do. =)

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Originally Posted by TekWarren

I was thinking this also but it would seem like the animal would have to be pretty dehydrated (physically looking unhealthy) for a urate like that? I guess I've never see a urate come out purely solid.

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It's not stool...it's white (or off-white, anyway) like urates. Slightly chalky to the touch.

I'm a vet tech....got a pretty strong stomach. :-) I've picked live maggots out of open wounds and then sat down to fried rice. Getting a little poo/pee on my hands is no biggie.

He's not dehydrated...he's fat, sleek, shiny. Just as gorgeous as you could ask for. Sheds out perfectly. Humidity and temps are right.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Is urates a by product of the kidneys or bowels.

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Kidneys. Uric acid is a by-product of protien metabolism, and its production is a very efficient way of getting rid of nitrogenous waste without using a lot of water in the process. Mammals excrete urea, which is much more soluble in water. We use a lot more water in getting rid of waste than birds and reptiles do. :pee:

-Evan

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Originally Posted by Evan Jamison

Kidneys. Uric acid is a by-product of protien metabolism, and its production is a very efficient way of getting rid of nitrogenous waste without using a lot of water in the process. Mammals excrete urea, which is much more soluble in water. We use a lot more water in getting rid of waste than birds and reptiles do. :pee:

-Evan

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could the animal have kidney failure? Would that cause hardened preexpailed urates

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

could the animal have kidney failure? Would that cause hardened preexpailed urates

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If the animal is producing urates, the kidneys would be functioning fine, as that is where the uric acid would be concentrated before being released into the urogenital canal. Excess water may or may not be released with the urate depending on how hydrated the animal is. The snake may be slightly dehydrated, and is concentrating the uric acid more than normal and not expelling excess water with the urate. The urates of severely dehydrated snakes will often look greenish-yellow colored, small, and have a more of a bumpy appearance. I wouldn't be overly concerned if it was a urate (I don't know what else it could be).

-Evan

This happened a few days ago, but I keep forgetting to post it, LOL.

He got a nice long soak in a warm bath, and two days later passed the remaining "urolith" and a positively unreal volume of stool. It looked like a 30lb dog had snuck into his tub. I weighed him and he'd gone from 1150-ish a couple of weeks ago to 1054g post-pooping!

I offered food on his next scheduled day and he ate readily, so I think the problem has resolved.

Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions!